Question:
doesn't design imply planning?
just curious (A.A.A.A.)
2008-01-18 08:38:16 UTC
to those who believe in intelligent design, how do you get around the idea that design implies planning? could you build a building without designing it first? perhaps, but then that wouldn't be very intelligent, would it? the idea that god created the entire universe with just a snap of the fingers is absurd. design requires planning and planning takes time. if you want to argue that the timeline for the universe began when god created it, that's one thing, but to suggest that there is no time before that is ridiculous. time is an observable measurement. and for it not to exist implies that there is nobody to measure it. consider the old philosophical riddle, "if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?" if nobody is there to measure time, how can anyone create it?
Seven answers:
Lawrence Louis
2008-01-19 19:42:24 UTC
All events make no sense without reference to time. When someone thinks about something, we mean that they are contemplating something at a certain point in time. When someone plans or designs something, we mean to say that they are performing some action at a certain point in time. Hence, every action is predicated on time. Action without time makes about as much sense as eating with no food.



So if God transcends, and existed before time, then God is absolute nonsense. How can you, after all, exist BEFORE the very thing that gives meaning to terms like BEFORE and AFTER? It doesn’t make any sense, and we must therefore conclude that God, as he is normally construed, is absolute gibberish.



Furthermore, putting aside the idea of time, if design implies planning then God is limited, for planning underscores a limitation in ones thinking. A truly omnipotent being can will things into existence and perfection without thinking. The only reason why a creature needs to think is because he has a finite intellect and must ascertain information unknown to him.



Some of the greatest arguments against the God concept can be found right within the normal definitions of him.
Questioner
2008-01-18 17:00:10 UTC
You just don't believe in a spirit realm that is outside of space and time.



If the universe is not eternal and could not have created itself, then the only remaining alternative is that the universe was created by something or Someone. This would have to be a transcendent, eternal, self-existing being.



Someone may argue, “If the universe needs a cause, then why doesn’t God need a cause; who created God?” The answer is, everything that has a beginning has a cause; God, unlike the universe, did not have a beginning. Time is linked to matter and space (as we can see from Einstein’s general relativity). If God created the universe, then He created time along with matter and space. If God created time, then He is outside of time and doesn’t need a beginning.



What is more absurd, to believe that God Created everything out of nothing or that nothing turned itself into everything? The fact is, we live in a Universe that is an effect. There must be a preceding and adequate cause for it. The only thing that makes sense is a Creator who is more powerful than anything we can imagine (who is outside of space and time).
Pfo
2008-01-18 16:44:50 UTC
No, you can micro-plan as you go. A computer programmer design philosophy known as XP (Extreme Programming) encompasses this, you know your specs and design as you go. It can work better, rather than working out all the details you work out pieces of the problem and combine them when done.



You could set out to just create something, and not plan what you do as you go (good luck with getting good results though).



"could you build a building without designing it first? perhaps, but then that wouldn't be very intelligent, would it?"



Perhaps not very intelligent, but alas it would still be intelligent because the capability to make a mistake would still exist.
TIAT
2008-01-18 17:00:48 UTC
It sure does!......God is the "Master Watchmaker"!....Let's get to the crux of the matter: Why do we find so many dependable, predictable, finely tuned laws governing our existence? What is their origin? Did life arise by chance, or is something larger at work? There must be an explanation for the existence of everything. The number, precision and perfection of natural laws cannot be explained away as an accident. Such reasoning is irrational.



Common sense tells us that the existence of an unimaginably magnificent universe structured on and sustained by innumerable laws of physics requires the existence of a Creator of those laws, a Designer of those structures.



Some of the clearest evidence of God's existence is in the awesome presence of design in the universe. Australian scientist Paul Davies put it well in his book The Mind of God: The Scientific Basis for a Rational World:



"Human beings have always been awestruck by the subtlety, majesty, and intricate organization of the physical world. The march of the heavenly bodies across the sky, the rhythms of the seasons, the pattern of a snowflake, the myriads of living creatures so well adapted to their environment—all these things seem too well arranged to be a mindless accident. There is a natural tendency to attribute the elaborate order of the universe to the purposeful workings of a Deity" (p. 194).



Another writer who saw clear proof of creation all around him was King David. Looking into the heavens 3,000 years ago, he discerned that he was viewing the handiwork of the Creator and that we can discern much about Him by that handiwork: "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world" (Psalm 19:1-4, New International Version).



The splendor of the night sky still moves us to wonder and awe. What are those tiny specks of light sparkling in the darkness of space? How did they get there? Why are they there? What lies beyond them in the unimaginable reaches of the universe? The grandeur of the shimmering heavens raises questions not just about the universe but about our part in it.



The same is true of the intricate patterns in all things on earth, not just the world we see around us but the unseen world we can explore only through microscopes.



A thousand years after King David expressed his awe at these marvels, the apostle Paul told Christians in Rome that "since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made . . ." (Romans 1:20, NIV).



The writers of the Bible recognized in the creation much evidence of a great, all-wise Creator. They understood that the wonders we see around us shout the same message: Such astonishing design demands a Master Designer! Whether we are moved by the power of the sea, the grandeur of a mountain range, the delicate beauty of the first spring flowers or the birth of a child, as we look at the world around us we naturally conclude: This is the handiwork of a great Designer.



"To a person who does not feel obliged to restrict his search to unintelligent causes, the straightforward conclusion is that many biochemical systems were designed. They were designed not by the laws of nature, not by chance and necessity; rather they were planned. The designer knew what the systems would look like when they were completed, then took steps to bring the systems about" (Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution, 1996, p. 193, emphasis in original).



His conclusion: "Life on earth at its most fundamental level, in its most critical components, is the product of intelligent design" (ibid.).



The precision of our universe is not the result of an accident. It is the product of a meticulous Creator and Lawgiver, the universe's Master Watchmaker.
Cuchulain
2008-01-18 16:48:16 UTC
Space-time are currently interpreted as being inexcorably entwined. Without space there is no time.



Per non-theological arguements on the origin of the universe, the flaw you identify is infinitely greater (I use infinite in the mathematical application)



This is to say the choice before you is:

Nothing existed infinately, and something changed that (Theism)

Nothing existed infinately, and nothing changed that (Atheism)



Therefore, if I exist, there is (in mathematical terms) only one conclusion that is possible
Nina, BaC
2008-01-18 18:42:50 UTC
The Bible does not deny the thinking process behind the design.
Timmy T
2008-01-18 17:58:27 UTC
why do christians have the longest answers? Simple regurgitation of doctrine?


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
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