Question:
Do You Believe Evolution Is Wrong?
?
2007-04-18 11:57:42 UTC
Firstly, let me start out by saying, yes I do believe it is a wrong philosophy.
I have nothing against micro-evolution, which is when animals adapt to fit their environment.
But I cannot believe that human beings, came from pond scum.
Or monkeys for that matter.
Lets put religion or whatever aside for a moment. There has been no proof that evolution has ever taken place.
Any argument or proof that you give me, I can prove false.
That is why it is still a "theory".
I believe that evolution is a religion, it is a belief in where you came from and why we are here. It has also never been witnessed. We have never seen a monkey change into a human. But you will say that takes billions of years.... So if you are so sure, I guess you must be that old then, to have seen it.
And if we did evolve from monkeys, why are there still monkeys left? If you can honestly tell me you believe that nothing at one time became something and then something became a monkey and then a human, shame.
Eighteen answers:
Megan
2007-04-18 12:01:04 UTC
I agree with you 100%. Evolution is just a stupid theory that has never and will never be proven.
Jess H
2007-04-18 12:18:05 UTC
The argument that evolution has never been witnessed as somehow proof that evolution is wrong, also then should destroy the idea that God "Created" everything. That was never witnessed, either. To further that argument, the process ITSELF may not have been "witnessed", (obviously because it took millions of years) but there is an ASTRONOMICAL amount of evidence supporting evolution. (And considering that only been studied for about the past 100 years, that's saying a lot. I'd be interested in knowing what they'll know in another 100 years!) The "Creation" story, however, has been around for over 2000 years, and there hasn't been one LICK of evidence found showing that it's anything but a complete myth.

You're claim that "Any argument or proof that you give me, I can prove false" is laughable. There are hundreds of thousands of geologists, biologists, and anthropologists with doctorates in science all over the world who've seen the evidence, and accept the theory of evolution. If YOU could prove them wrong, you'd be on a stage receiving a Nobel prize, and you'd be a very, VERY rich person.

I would also recommend that you learn a few things before claiming brilliance on the subject.

1) Learn what the scientific definition of the word "theory" is. You clearly don't know that, or you wouldn't use the standard misleading Creationist phrase "That is why it is still a 'theory'."

2) Learn what the theory of evolution is actually about. If you had ANY idea, you'd know that it doesn't say that humans evolved from monkeys. Look on a legitimiate science website, (not a creationist website) and in legitimate science books.



And FYI--Resorting to ad-hominum attacks is a sign of ignorance. If you have an intelligent argument to make, then make it. Saying "it's OK, you still think like (an animal)" is childish.
eigelhorn
2007-04-18 12:14:30 UTC
1. Evolution has many evidences for it. Evidence is all you will find in Scientific Investigation.



2. Theory does not mean "unproven proposition/unevidenced proposition" in Science. It means "An explanation of a specific phenomena that has undergone extansive testing and confirmation."



3. You misuse the term "religion" when you try to apply this onto Evolution. Evolution matches none of the "elements: of a religion.



4. Its a Scientific proposition on the origins of biodiverstiy, not of life and the universe.



5. Monkeys don't change into humans, Evolution doesn't move in a ladder. All the species you see today are just as "evolved" as us.



6. You don't need to see evolutionary process to know that it happened. The genomes, morphological hierarchy and fossil record all show extensive and specific evolutionary change.



7. Just to reiterate: EVOLUTION DOES NOT MOVE IN A LADDER.



Humans are not the "end result" of Evolutionary progress thus far and all species existing today are just as "evolved".



8. Nothing in Evolutionary theory suggests that "something came from nothing". Do not string together a strawman Big Bang Theory (which by the way, does not postulate the origin of the universe, only shows that the universe can be extrapolated to a point as a singularity), Abiogenetic hypotheses and Evolutionary Theory to make some kind of "Evolutionary worldview" so that it matches the Creationist worldview.



The sad fact of the matter is that Creationism is a "worldview" while Evolutionary Theory is a Scientific theory on biodiversity. They don't match up on any general level and this is further evidence that Creationism cannot be considered a science (tries to answer too many questions in one shot and ventures into metaphysics).
Diagoras
2007-04-18 12:47:05 UTC
First of all the question i keep hearing from opponents of evolution is always, "if we evolved from monkeys then why are monkeys still around?" People who ask this question show that they do not grasp the fundamental concept of evolution. Organisms evolve out of necessity, not just because they feel like it.



Organisms have evolved the features needed to support themselves in their current habitat. If their environment changes, the features that the organism once had to survive in their old habitat may not be right for their new habitat. Some monkeys did not evolve, simply because their environment did not change significantly and there for they did not need to evolve in order to assist their survival. In the our case evolution was sparked by a drastic change in climate, and therefore environment, in Africa about 4 million years ago. Monkeys are tree dwelling creatures. When the forests of Africa began to thin significantly and give way to tall grasslands, the only way for the species to survive was to adapt to the new environment.



And when you say you have nothing against animals adapting to fit their environment, you assuming that we are somehow completely different form of life, which is obviously wrong. A human and a chimpanzee are between 95 and 98.5 percent genetically identical. When you look at all the similarities between us and chimps, and all of the remains of bipedal organisms which are clearly not human, and clearly not ape or chimp, the only way you can argue with the case of evolution is if you've already made up your mind that you don't believe in evolution before looking at all the evidence.



Luckily i had the advantage of not being exposed to christianity or to the idea of creation, before i learned evolution.
Jack W
2007-04-18 13:29:47 UTC
Apologies for this long answer, but I think you might find it well worth reading if you give it the chance.



Firstly, the real reason evolution is still a theory is simply that a process has to be repeated under controlled conditions for it to be empirically proven. However, a process as long and as all-encompassing as evolution can't be repeated under such conditions unless one happens to have a handy sci-fi laboratory-universe. Gravity is "just a theory." It doesn't make it any less feasible. If you could prove false any argument at all in favour of evolution, it wouldn't even be a theory.



Next, the rejection of evolution because one "can't accept" (in other words "doesn't like the idea") the idea of evolving from pond scum, as you so colourfully put it, is subjective and irrelevant to any serious argument. You can't refute something because you think it's icky.



As for witnessing evolution... it happens under (and often inside) our very noses all the time. You just have to know where to look:

Take, for example, a tuberculosis bacterium colony. Administer some antibiotic, and they all die off... except for a tiny few who have a resistance to that particular antibiotic. Why? The only possible explanation is evolution.

Now, bacteria reproduce by mitosis; they split in two and make an exact genetic copy of themselves. Exact, you cry? Well, not quite. You see, radioactivity from the sun causes random mutation in random genes every so often (I'm not sure of the EXACT figure, it's one in several million at least).

These alterations in genes are, for the most part, undetectable. They don't change anything, to all intents and purposes. Sometimes, however, an important gene will be mutated; perhaps (going back to our tuberculosis colony) a gene that previously did nothing particularly useful suddenly is hit by radiation from the Sun and switches to giving the bacterium a resistence to a particular type of antibiotic!

This mutation will go unseen until it offers its particular bacterium an advantage over all the others, i.e. when the antibiotic is applied. All bacteria apart from the one with the useful mutation die off, and our mutant is left alive thanks to its resistence. It then replicates and the colony bounces back, this time with an added resistence to antibiotics thanks to one random mutation in its ancestor.



With regards to your monkey question, we did not evolve from any particular species of primate seen today. Rather, humans, monkeys and apes all derive from a common ancestor, a proto-primate. Monkeys are not our ancestors, merely our cousins.
ms_coktoasten
2007-04-18 12:04:05 UTC
Let's start small:



Evolution does not purport that "we came from monkeys". It is a scientific theory (means based on empirical evidence and is not a religion) that suggests we have a common ancestor. We are different branches of a large, diverse family tree. Do you think whales and dolphins are "related"?? We are 98% genetically identical to chimps. You and your mother both exist today, even though you are not the same person. You are both related to your grandmother. Get it now?



Honestly, it is silly of you to suggest that YOU, someone who doesn't even understand the BASIC points of evolution, could really debate this with anyone.
Eleventy
2007-04-18 12:00:34 UTC
A) If you are stating that we must witness something to know it's truth, I can't be sure anything happened before 1983.



B) Evolution is a theory and a fact.



C) Look up what evolution says before dismissing it.



D) If you believe in micro, what is the wall to prevent macro?
Sir Reginald Whiskers
2007-04-18 12:03:10 UTC
Drink
Samurai Jack
2007-04-18 12:01:36 UTC
Here's an interesting article regarding that:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/08/1/text_pop/l_081_09.html
2007-04-18 12:01:26 UTC
*sigh*



Evolution is both fact and theory.



"The word theory, in the context of science, does not imply uncertainty. It means "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" (Barnhart 1948)."
2007-04-18 12:04:53 UTC
well guess what sugar, your 'microevolution' over billions upon billions of years will stack change upon change where you will get... well, what you probably would call 'macroevolution'. Speciation, whatever. It is happening.



If dogs came from wolves, why are there still wolves?
scifiguy
2007-04-18 12:03:48 UTC
"And if we did evolve from monkeys, why are there still monkeys left?"



You obviously don't understand how evolution actually works.



Maybe you should study it instead of ranting to others about your lack of an education.
momof3
2007-04-18 12:16:45 UTC
Too early for drinking games.
2007-04-18 12:03:48 UTC
Your kind of questions have been answered numerous times. You're the kind of "scum" that can't be bothered to do any research.
Gorgeoustxwoman2013
2007-04-18 12:02:32 UTC
Evolution is fact.
2007-04-18 12:01:56 UTC
<>



Are you in fifth grade and home schooled?
naz
2007-04-18 12:00:47 UTC
I sure do believe that "Creationism" is wrong!!!
eldad9
2007-04-18 12:07:03 UTC
Since you asked for it so nicely:



Evolution is a fact and a theory (and the only people who deny it are religious fanatics and the people mislead by them - and all you're doing is showing us how unreasonable and uneducated theists are)



W hen non-biologists talk about biological evolution they often confuse two different aspects of the definition. On the one hand there is the question of whether or not modern organisms have evolved from older ancestral organisms or whether modern species are continuing to change over time. On the other hand there are questions about the mechanism of the observed changes... how did evolution occur? Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming. However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution. Stephen J. Gould has put this as well as anyone else:



In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."



Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.



Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.



Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.



- Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981



Gould is stating the prevailing view of the scientific community. In other words, the experts on evolution consider it to be a fact. This is not an idea that originated with Gould as the following quotations indicate:



Let me try to make crystal clear what is established beyond reasonable doubt, and what needs further study, about evolution. Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry. By contrast, the mechanisms that bring evolution about certainly need study and clarification. There are no alternatives to evolution as history that can withstand critical examination. Yet we are constantly learning new and important facts about evolutionary mechanisms.



- Theodosius Dobzhansky "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution", American Biology Teacher vol. 35 (March 1973) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, J. Peter Zetterberg ed., ORYX Press, Phoenix AZ 1983



Also:



It is time for students of the evolutionary process, especially those who have been misquoted and used by the creationists, to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun.



The controversies about evolution lie in the realm of the relative importance of various forces in molding evolution.



- R. C. Lewontin "Evolution/Creation Debate: A Time for Truth" Bioscience 31, 559 (1981) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, op cit.



This concept is also explained in introductory biology books that are used in colleges and universities (and in some of the better high schools). For example, in some of the best such textbooks we find:



Today, nearly all biologists acknowledge that evolution is a fact. The term theory is no longer appropriate except when referring to the various models that attempt to explain how life evolves... it is important to understand that the current questions about how life evolves in no way implies any disagreement over the fact of evolution.



- Neil A. Campbell, Biology 2nd ed., 1990, Benjamin/Cummings, p. 434



Also:



Since Darwin's time, massive additional evidence has accumulated supporting the fact of evolution--that all living organisms present on earth today have arisen from earlier forms in the course of earth's long history. Indeed, all of modern biology is an affirmation of this relatedness of the many species of living things and of their gradual divergence from one another over the course of time. Since the publication of The Origin of Species, the important question, scientifically speaking, about evolution has not been whether it has taken place. That is no longer an issue among the vast majority of modern biologists. Today, the central and still fascinating questions for biologists concern the mechanisms by which evolution occurs.



- Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, Biology 5th ed. 1989, Worth Publishers, p. 972



One of the best introductory books on evolution (as opposed to introductory biology) is that by Douglas J. Futuyma, and he makes the following comment:



A few words need to be said about the "theory of evolution," which most people take to mean the proposition that organisms have evolved from common ancestors. In everyday speech, "theory" often means a hypothesis or even a mere speculation. But in science, "theory" means "a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed." as the Oxford English Dictionary defines it. The theory of evolution is a body of interconnected statements about natural selection and the other processes that are thought to cause evolution, just as the atomic theory of chemistry and the Newtonian theory of mechanics are bodies of statements that describe causes of chemical and physical phenomena. In contrast, the statement that organisms have descended with modifications from common ancestors--the historical reality of evolution--is not a theory. It is a fact, as fully as the fact of the earth's revolution about the sun. Like the heliocentric solar system, evolution began as a hypothesis, and achieved "facthood" as the evidence in its favor became so strong that no knowledgeable and unbiased person could deny its reality. No biologist today would think of submitting a paper entitled "New evidence for evolution;" it simply has not been an issue for a century.



- Douglas J. Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed., 1986, Sinauer Associates, p. 15



There are readers of these newsgroups who reject evolution for religious reasons. In general these readers oppose both the fact of evolution and theories of mechanisms, although some anti-evolutionists have come to realize that there is a difference between the two concepts. That is why we see some leading anti-evolutionists admitting to the fact of "microevolution"--they know that evolution can be demonstrated. These readers will not be convinced of the "facthood" of (macro)evolution by any logical argument and it is a waste of time to make the attempt. The best that we can hope for is that they understand the argument that they oppose. Even this simple hope is rarely fulfilled.



There are some readers who are not anti-evolutionist but still claim that evolution is "only" a theory which can't be proven. This group needs to distinguish between the fact that evolution occurs and the theory of the mechanism of evolution.



We also need to distinguish between facts that are easy to demonstrate and those that are more circumstantial. Examples of evolution that are readily apparent include the fact that modern populations are evolving and the fact that two closely related species share a common ancestor. The evidence that Homo sapiens and chimpanzees share a recent common ancestor falls into this category. There is so much evidence in support of this aspect of primate evolution that it qualifies as a fact by any common definition of the word "fact."



In other cases the available evidence is less strong. For example, the relationships of some of the major phyla are still being worked out. Also, the statement that all organisms have descended from a single common ancestor is strongly supported by the available evidence, and there is no opposing evidence. However, it is not yet appropriate to call this a "fact" since there are reasonable alternatives.



Finally, there is an epistemological argument against evolution as fact. Some readers of these newsgroups point out that nothing in science can ever be "proven" and this includes evolution. According to this argument, the probability that evolution is the correct explanation of life as we know it may approach 99.9999...9% but it will never be 100%. Thus evolution cannot be a fact. This kind of argument might be appropriate in a philosophy class (it is essentially correct) but it won't do in the real world. A "fact," as Stephen J. Gould pointed out (see above), means something that is so highly probable that it would be silly not to accept it. This point has also been made by others who contest the nit-picking epistemologists.



The honest scientist, like the philosopher, will tell you that nothing whatever can be or has been proved with fully 100% certainty, not even that you or I exist, nor anyone except himself, since he might be dreaming the whole thing. Thus there is no sharp line between speculation, hypothesis, theory, principle, and fact, but only a difference along a sliding scale, in the degree of probability of the idea. When we say a thing is a fact, then, we only mean that its probability is an extremely high one: so high that we are not bothered by doubt about it and are ready to act accordingly. Now in this use of the term fact, the only proper one, evolution is a fact. For the evidence in favor of it is as voluminous, diverse, and convincing as in the case of any other well established fact of science concerning the existence of things that cannot be directly seen, such as atoms, neutrons, or solar gravitation ....



So enormous, ramifying, and consistent has the evidence for evolution become that if anyone could now disprove it, I should have my conception of the orderliness of the universe so shaken as to lead me to doubt even my own existence. If you like, then, I will grant you that in an absolute sense evolution is not a fact, or rather, that it is no more a fact than that you are hearing or reading these words.



- H. J. Muller, "One Hundred Years Without Darwin Are Enough" School Science and Mathematics 59, 304-305. (1959) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism op cit.



In any meaningful sense evolution is a fact, but there are various theories concerning the mechanism of evolution.


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