Jehovah Witnesses: One more question about the rich man and Lazarus?

Question

Not too long ago I asked a question with regards to your explanation of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Bear with me as I had one more.

In Luke 16:23 it reads: "And in hell he lift up his eyes being in torments and seeth Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom".

This is actually the same scripture I used with my last question but there was something else in this verse that caught my eye and wondered if you could explain. It's found at the beginning of the verse where it reads "and in hell he lift up his eyes being in torments..."

What baffles me is this: According to you hell simply represents the grave, nothing more. Therefore if I substitute the word grave for hell in that verse it would read to say "and in the grave he lift up his eyes being in torments...". Now remember, the rich man's death was only metaphorical meaning he was still alive so what is a living person doing in a grave? Interestingly, in the previous verse it makes mention of the rich man being buried and angels taking Lazarus into Abraham's bosom. What does it mean to be metaphorically buried? Also, since Lazarus wasn't really dead what did it mean when it says that angels took him? Can you explain this one to me?

Answer 1

***The meaning of this parable-the rich man and his brothers who did not listen to Moses and the prophets (vv. 29-31), represent the Pharisees.****



“Now remember, the rich man's death was only metaphorical meaning he was still alive so what is a living person doing in a grave?”



Either the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Jesus made a mistake or The Watchtower made a huge error. He wasn’t asleep in the grave; he was in a place of "torment." If hell is a place of knowing nothing or a reference to the grave into which we go at death, Jesus' statements about hell make no sense. Even though it is a metaphor, the story does not add up correctly within the JW doctrine. In my understanding, this may very well be partially metaphorical and rest being true. The part that is true is that of eternal punishment. Let’s take a look at some passages to back up the meaning of Hades. He said that if your hand, foot, or eye causes you to sin, it would be better to remove it than to "go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43–48).

The Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following:

•"Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)

•"Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46)

•"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51)

•"Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17)

•"Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9)

•"Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

•"Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)

Passages on life after death: Scripture teaches that the spirits of men are fully conscious after separation from the body at death:



1) They can speak: Isaiah 14:9-11 Ezekiel 32:21

2)They can cry:

Matthew 8:11, 12; 13:43, 50; 22:13 Luke 16:24-31;13:28 Revelation 6:9-11

3) They can hear:

John 5:25 1 Peter 3:18-20; 4:6

4) They can see:

Luke 16:23

John 8:51-54, 45

5) They can feel pain:

Luke 16:23, 24

Revelation 20;10

6) They have memory:

Luke 16:28



“What does it mean to be metaphorically buried?" Partially metaphorical. Many Christians believe “hell” is real and there are plenty of passages which strongly suggest eternal punishment.



"Also, since Lazarus wasn't really dead what did it mean when it says that angels took him? Can you explain this one to me?”

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

"Was carried by the angels - The Jews held the opinion that the spirits of the righteous were conveyed by angels to heaven at their death. Our Saviour speaks in accordance with this opinion; and as he expressly affirms the fact, it seems as proper that it should be taken literally, as when it is said the rich man died and was buried. Angels are ministering spirits sent forth to minister to those who are heirs of salvation Hebrews 1:14, and there is no more improbability in the supposition that they attend departing spirits to heaven, than that they attend them while on earth."





Most interesting question I have been pondering on most of the day.

Answer 2

"Can you explain this one to me?"



Yes, it was a parable. Plain and simple. Nothing in it literally happened. You can ask "Well, what about this...?" It was a parable, it's not literal.



If we take it literally, then there are some problems. Here's just some off the top of my head:



The verse you mentioned: "And in hell he lift up his eyes being in torments and seeth Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom."



That would mean that hell was only a few hundred feet away from hell at most for the rich man to be able to recognize Abraham and Lazarus. If we take this parable as real, and follow everything it says to its logical limits, then we'd have to conclude that heaven is perhaps 300 literal feet away from hell.



Also, how did the rich man at 300 feet know he was seeing Abraham? Why not Elijah or Moses? This doesn't make sense if it's literal. But if it's just a story, a parable, then whatever is stated matter of factly is to be taken for granted by the reader.



Also, if real, then why would the rich man request that Lazarus dip his finger into water and drip it on the rich man's tongue so that he could cool off? This is preposterous. Common experience tells us that this would not be a method of cooling off if one were in tormenting flames.

Answer 3

So in your assumption that this is a real story. Would it make any sense that a person for just being a beggar would be worthy of going to heaven ? And a person that doesn't share his food with a beggar is worthy of going to hell ( a place of torment according to your belief ) ? The parable makes no mention that the beggar accepted Jesus or that the rich man rejected Jesus

Answer 4

Greetings,



You’ve already answered your own question. The word “HADES” (hell) here is metaphorical. It doesn’t denote the grave, but a deplorable condition or state.





The Bible uses Sheol/Hades as a very common symbol. It is regularly used in the Scriptures as a symbol of a despicable state. Several times David thanked God for delivering him from HADES (Ps.30:3; 86:13, LXX). When Jonah was in the belly of the fish he said he was in HADES. Was David or Jonah literally in HADES? No. But they were in a despicable condition and wanted to be released. Likewise, in parabolic language "HADES" here in Luke is not literally the place where dead souls are. It is the figurative Sheol/Hades as used by David, Jonah and many others.



Many Bible scholars recognize this figurative use HADES:



S.T. Bloomfield in his Notes on the N.T. says HADES is a "hyperbolical expression, figuratively representing the depth of adversity."



Adam Clarke: "The word 'hell', used in the common translation, conveys now an improper meaning of the original word;...Here it means a state of the utmost woe, and ruin, and desolation."



A parallel usage of HADES is in Lk 10:15 (Mt. 11:23). "And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell" (hades). No one would contend that the city of Capernaum was literally in heaven, nor was it to be literally sent to hell. The word hell here is a figure of a "state of utmost woe, and ruin, and desolation" as a result of God's rejection.





Interpreting this account to be speaking about the literal grave would rip the parable out of it's context, which is not teaching anything about what happens after death. Rather, it is clearly an illustration depicting the difference in the *spiritual* conditions of the "rich" Pharisees and the "poor" common people (Lk.15:1,2; 16:1,14). This is easy to see since the context is in response to scoffing by the Pharisees, who were "money lovers" and setting themselves in an exalted position (16:14,15). Yet, the common people "kept drawing near to him to hear him" (Lk. 15:1,2).



So the parable depicts a change of circumstances from God's standpoint. The Rich man represented the Jewish religious leaders, who were favored with spiritual privileges and opportunities, whereas Lazarus represented the common people to whom the religious leaders denied spiritual food.



The rich man dwelling in Hades represents the spiritual degradation now experienced by the Pharisees. They now "thirst" for even a drop of the spiritual waters they had previously (Am.8:11). The fiery torment experienced by the rich man represented Jesus' messages of fiery judgment proclaimed by Jesus' disciples that tormented these religious leaders day and night (Acts 4:1,2; 5:17, 18; 7:54).



Yours,



BAR-ANERGES



EDIT:

Actually, what it means to be "buried" and "carried away by angels" is implied in the answer. Being "buried" is simply part of the change from a favored state to a despicable state and likewise being taken by angels is part of the change from a despicable state to a favored state. The care of Angels is a figure of God's favor.



But you also need to be careful of trying to force some significance into each and every detail of a parable. One exegetical rule is that every parable must have some details which have no real significance outside of supporting the primary point. This was the mistake of the bizarre interpretations of many early exegetes; they wanted every little detail to have some meaning.



One edition of the NAB states: "Parable: A short fictitious narrative from which a moral or spiritual truth is drawn. Keep in mind that the point of the parable (not the details) is God's message to believers."



"Contrary to an allegory like Pilgrim's Progress, where every detail counts, the details of a parable do not necessarily have any significance in themselves, except as "props" for the story. A parable is designed to teach a fundamental truth, and the details do not have a literal meaning, unless the context indicates otherwise. Out of this principle another grows, namely, only the fundamental teaching of a parable, confirmed by the general tenor of Scripture, may be legitimately used for defining doctrine."--Samuele Bacchiocchi; The State of the Dead



"A parable is a truth carried in a vehicle. Therefore there is the inevitable presence of accessories which are necessary for the drapery of the parable, but are not part of the meaning. The danger in parabolic teaching at this point is to interpret as meaningful what is drapery."—Bernard Ramm; Protestant Biblical Interpretation

Answer 5

Luke 16 has Jesus using the Greek word 'hades' which is translated 'hell' in most English translations. The Jehovah's Witness Bible, the NWT, says, "Also, the rich man died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments..."



The footnote in their Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures mentions a manuscript that says Hades, another that says Sheol and the Latin Vulgate which says 'infernus'. The point is that the Hebrew 'Sheol' equates with the Greek 'Hades', and the JWs agree with that point. JWs say that Sheol / Hades is merely the grave and that there's no consciousness in the grave. Jesus said otherwise!



Even if what Jesus said is taken to be a parable, the lesson Jesus is teaching cannot be minimised. Two men died and found themselves aware of torment for one and bliss for another. What JWs need to take into account is how Jesus was addressing Jewish people who knew of the current schools of Hillel and Shammai, which taught a place of awareness after death - Sheol - which was divided into two compartments, torment or bliss! Further, they believed there was an uncrossable chaos between the two parts and that souls in either compartment would stay there till the day of the resurrection. Jesus went right along with that idea! Not once did He even hint that their beliefs about souls of the dead being in either hell or bliss was wrong! The metaphorical approach does not begin to deal with this inconvenient fact. Well, inconvenient for the JWs, not for those who take Jesus' many warnings about hell seriously. Jesus said we had to do whatever it takes to avoid the awfulness of finding ourselves in hell. He wasn't talking about the grave!

Answer 6

You are trying to make symbols represent realities.



Hades / hell in this parable is not the literal grave of mankind.



Anymore than all rich go the hades, whereas only one poor man will go to Abraham's bosom.

Answer 7

Jesus has been talking 2 his disciples about the proper use of material riches, explaining that we cannot be slaves 2 these & @ the same time be slaves 2 God. The Pharisees are also listening, and they begin 2 sneer @ Jesus bcuz they are money lovers. So he says 2 them: "You are those who declare yourselves righteous before men, but God knows your hearts; bcuz what is lofty among men is a disgusting thing in God's sight." The time has come for the tables 2 be turned on ppl who r rich in worldly goods, political power, religious control & influence. However, the ppl who recognize their spiritual need r 2 b lifted up. Jesus points 2 such a change when he goes on 2 say 2 the Pharisees: "The Law & the Prophets were until John [the Baptizer]. From then on the Kingdom of God is being declared as good news, & every sort of person is pressing forward toward it. Indeed, it is easier for heaven & earth 2 pass away than for 1 particle of a letter of the Law to go unfulfilled." Recall that when Jesus miraculously gave sight 2 a certain man in Jerusalem, they boasted: "We r disciples of the Law of Moses. We know that God has spoken 2 Moses." But now the Law of Moses has fulfilled its intended purpose of leading humble 1s to God's designated King, Jesus Christ. So w/ the beginning of John's ministry, all kinds of persons, esp., the humble & the poor, are exerting themselves 2 become subjects of God's Kingdom. Since the Mosaic Law is now being fulfilled, the obligation 2 keep it is 2 be removed. Continuing his remarks to the Pharisees, Jesus relates an illustration that features 2 men whose status, or situation has changed dramatically. "But a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself w/ purple linen, enjoying himself from day 2 day w/ magnificence. But a certain beggar named Lazarus used to b put @ his gate, full of ulcers & desiring 2 be filled w/ the things dropping frm the table of the rich man. Yes, too, dogs would come & lick his ulcers." Jesus here uses the rich man to represent the Jewish religious leaders, including not only the Pharisees & the Scribes but the Sadducees & the chief priest as well. They r rich in spiritual privileges & opportunities, & they conduct themselves as the rich man did. Their clothing of royal purple represents their favored position, & the white linen represents their self-righteousness. The proud rich class views the poor, common ppl w/ utter contempt. The beggar Laz thus represents these ppl 2 whom the religious leaders deny proper spiritual nourishment & privileges. Yet, those of the Laz class hunger & thirst 4 spiritual nourishment & so r @ the gate, seeking 2 receive whatever meager morsels of spiritual food may drop frm the rich man's table. Jesus now goes on 2 describe changes in the condition of the rich man & Laz.

RICH MAN and LAZARUS EXPERIENCE a CHANGE

The rich man represents the religious leaders who r favored w/ spiritual privileges & opportunities, & Laz pictures the common ppl who hunger 4 spiritual nourishment, Jesus continues his story, describing a dramatic change in the men's circumstances. "Now in the course of time," Jesus says, "the beggar died & he was carried off by the angels 2 the bosom position of Abraham. Also. the rich mad died & was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, he existed in torments, & he saw Abraham afar off & Laz in the bosom position w/ him." Since the rich man & Laz r not literal persons but symbolize classes of ppl, logically their deaths r also symbolic. What do their deaths symbolize or represent? Jesus had just finished pointing 2 a change in circumstances by saying that 'the Law of hthe Prophets were until John the Baptizer, butfrm then on the kingdom of God is being declared.' Hence, it is w/ the preaching of John & Jesus Christ that both the rich man & Laz die 2 their former circumstances, or condition. Those of the humble Laz class die 2 their former spiritually deprived condition & come in2 a position of divine favor. Whereas they had earlier looked 2 the religious leaders 4 what little dropped frm the spiritual table, now Scriptural thruths imparted by Jesus r filling their needs. They r thus brought in2 the bosom, or favored position, of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God. On the other hand, those who make up the rich-man class come under divine disfavor bcuz of persistently refusing 2 accept the kingdom message taught by Jesus. They thereby die 2 their former position of seeming favor, In fact, they r spoken of as being in figurative torment. Listen now, as the rich man speaks: "Father Abraham, have mercy on me & send Laz 2 dip the tip of his finger in water & cool my tongue, bcuz I am in anguish in this blazing fire." God's fiery judgement messages proclaimed by Jesus' disciples r what torment individuals of the rich-man class. They want the disciples 2 let up on declaring the messages, thus providing them some measure of relief frm their torments.