Question:
For those of you who reject the Creator & His Creation?
primoa1970
2008-04-24 09:01:41 UTC
I need to understand your logic with this.

You understand that the earth is perfectly situated in it's distance from the sun. Any amount of over-axis tilting or the slightest movement outside of our orbit would mean disaster for us.

You also understand that the moon is ever-so-slightly drifting away from us every year......and that if you calculate this according to your standards, the moon would have been rolling around right on top of us as of a few hundred thousand years ago.

The point I'm making is this:
How on earth could you possibly thing that "chance" had something to do with this marvelous creation of ours?

God is the One who created it.......put it into motion.....and is still in control of it all as we speak.

Thanks,

Primo
45 answers:
2008-04-24 09:52:26 UTC
The "anthropic principle" is indeed important and I highly suggest boning up on it. However, you must couple this principle with another, and that is that evidence debunks uniformitarianism. One need only read the evidence presented in Immanuel Veilkovsky's "Earths in Upheaval" to see that things change on the earth, all the time, often rapidly, and many times with great violence. Science has proven by math that there is indeed dimensions outside of our current physical space-time, so there is something beyond the material world.



To begin with a foundation of uniformitarianism, materialism, and evolution-only would be to not be a true scientist, but rather an evangelist with an agenda.





The details differ, but the essential elements in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are the same: the chain of events leading to man commenced suddenly and sharply at a definite moment in time, in a flash of light and energy ... For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries. - God and the Astronomers (1992) pp.106-107 by Robert Jastrow PhD Theoretical Physics recipient of NASA Medal for Exceptional Scientific Achievement.
2008-04-24 09:10:21 UTC
The moon:



It's moving away from the Earth....about 4 cm a year. They can directly measure it now with this:



http://www.csr.utexas.edu/mlrs/



It bounces a laser off a mirror placed on the Apollo Missions. If you click on the "targets" link you will see them listed, but there are several of them.



Anyhow...geologists figured that out in the 1940s. The way they figured it out was tidal rocks. There are rocks that are the direct result of very thin layers that build up as tides come in and out. They could tell from the ones that were about 2 billion years old that the tides were considerably higher then. They also figured that they days were a bit shorter. Well...the only way that works is if the Moon used to be closer. It would pull the tides higher, and as it moved away that would scrub off a bit of the rotational energy. They calculated that it was moving out a bit more than a 3.5 cm a year, although it used to be a bit faster.



This line of research lead to the theory that the Moon was the result of a planetary size collision about 4.3 billion years ago. This is now pretty widely accepted. It used to be part of the Earth.



But the really amazing part is how accurate they were in putting it together. They not only knew it was recessing, they knew about how much. The calculations were all based on the age of the rocks and the thickness of the layers. There is no way they could have gotten this far and been wrong about much of anything. We've been able to directly measure this since the 1970s. Tested predictions are awesome.



It is 3.8m a century, and that only is 171,000km in 4.5 billion years (the Moon wasn't there that long) which is less than half the distance it is at the closest.



The moon was never rolling around on top of us, that's just ignorance. It used to BE part of this planet.
Eiliat
2008-04-24 09:26:24 UTC
The Earth is situated within a millions of miles wide "habitable zone." You make it sound like we would die if it moved a fee yards to the left. The Earth's distance from the Sun actually varies by about 5 million kilometers within a year.



The moon is moving away, no one denies that. However, your claim is thoroughly wrong. I won't bother copying the information down, just check my source.



Your entire argument is the anthropic principle. Basically, it's like a sentient puddle thinking that the hole it is in was made for it while the truth is that the puddle conformed to the already existing hole.
2008-04-24 09:17:54 UTC




So then, why ask the question? If you're so comfortable with your beliefs, why not just go hole up in your cave with your bible, and spend your days in prayer?

And incidentally, the Earth's distance from the sun varies by about 3 million miles over the course of a year. Not to upset your little applecart or anything; I'm just saying.
Sir Scott
2008-04-24 09:10:54 UTC
I am not a religious person and respect the opinions of all (unless they like kill people) nor am i a scientific genius or even an amateur.



I just find it very challenging to understand the logic in your theory,



1st. If God did create the world and still controls it to this day then why is their war, why murder, famine, hunger, sadness and pain. Surely someone who has the power to create something has the power to maintain it.



2nd. Scientists who say the Big Bang created the earth, it is logical that at least one of the zillions of planets, moons, stars and all that jazz had the perfect ingredients to hold life.



I don't think it is a question of Logic
?
2008-04-24 09:12:05 UTC
Wrong on all counts. The Earth is not perfectly situated, it has had wide variances in climate over the ages. The orbit of the Earth is not a perfect circle, it varies by almost a million miles throughout the year.



The Moon is receding from the Earth. Check your math, run the movie backwards and the moon is 50,000 miles out 4.2 billion years ago in the orbit that it formed in.



The chance that we are here is one in one hundred billion. But since there are millions of billions of planets in this Universe, random chance works just fine to produce a species like us.



Just because your home schooling prevents you from understanding reality doesn't mean some impossible deity did it.
Edward J
2008-04-24 09:19:15 UTC
The Anthropic principle is nothing to be afraid of fro a Christian or scientific standpoint.http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/teleo.html As far as the fine tuning of the Universe there are many many examples of fine tuning which only weakens the chance argument. If you want to see some good evading of fine tuning check out this website http://home.messiah.edu/~rcollins/finetlay.htm
2008-04-24 09:12:48 UTC
It's beyond me, scripture taught us many things before science came along and confirmed what the bible taught...



These are just a few....



"He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing" (Job. 26:7).



Psalm 8:8 "The birds of the air, And the fish of the sea that pass through the paths of the seas." sea currents



Ecclesiastes 1:6 The wind goes toward the south, And turns around to the north; The wind whirls about continually, And comes again on its circuit. (circulation of the atmosphere)



Job 28:25 To establish a weight for the wind, And apportion the waters by measure. proven scientifically only about 300 years ago
The Frontrunner
2008-04-24 09:11:46 UTC
I love this argument, you use everything that's easy to disprove...



You assume that the universe was built and arose strictly for man. Man arose into the universe, of course if things were different, we wouldn't exist as we know existence, but there's a good chance something would exist in some other fashion.



You also assume far too much extrapolation in your estimations of the moon's distance. Just because it's moving away right now doesn't mean it was always doing it at the exact same rate.



Chance is all we have, and considering the sheer numbers, something was bound to happen the way that it did. 13 billion years, a billion billion planets in the universe? Come on, life has to exist on at least two or three.
Religious Does Not = Christian!
2008-04-24 09:13:49 UTC
There is a serious logical fallacy inherent in your question. It's reasonable to believe that a creator is necessary to have aligned such conditions. However, from this you conclude that the only possible source of these conditions is YOUR culture's perception of such a creator. Personally, I believe in a dual-gendered entity that exists within all of nature rather than a single male in a paradise of gold in an unknown realm. I am sure you find this mythology fanciful just as I consider yours unlikely and irrational. Your assertion that a creator must be necessary could logically lead one to my perception of spirituality as well.



To assume that the only possible source of this world is that of your specific mythology is illogical and unreasonable.



The primary difference between your spirituality and mine, however, is that I do not claim to know everything. I consider your truth as possible to be true as my own. And if I find that yours is true, I will consider it a fascinating surprise.



And I would like to thank you for asking so politely and with an eye toward reason rather than dogma. Best of luck with your spiritual path, whatever it may be.
thebigm57
2008-04-24 09:15:19 UTC
Our distance from the sun as proof of creation...The moon rolling around on top of us 100k years ago as proof of creation...Chaos theory spells out that even out of chaos there can be some perfection--order in things...therefore you're wrong yet again in your so called proofs.



FYI the earth's axis tilts-shifts every 13-27k years and humanity in various forms of development and at differing stages of EVOLUTION ( a dirty word for you I am sure) has survived several of them. Sorry but your argument holds little water. PEACE!
Jan P
2008-04-24 21:23:20 UTC
For those that asked this is regarding the Living God.



I believe He created the world and nothing will ever change my mind. I know not only in my head but in my heart as well.



Blessings.
2008-04-24 09:07:55 UTC
You understand that there are 10^22 stars in the universe, at least. Let's say only one in a trillion of these stars has an earth like planet that is similarly situated. Well, now you are down to

ten billion earth like planets that have this sort of set up.



So the notion that life could only exist on earth is a bit daft.



PS What creator?
2008-04-24 09:09:59 UTC
We evolved on this planet. We have adapted to its environment. If the climate now were suddenly to change to what it was two billion years ago, that would kill us all too. See how it works? We are perfect for our environment, not our environment for us.



You can't just assign a linear model to the movement of the moon and extend it back like that. It demonstrates a near total ignorance of mathematics and physics.



And you're the one who brought up 'chance', no one else.
Mandolyn Monkey Munch
2008-04-24 09:35:54 UTC
A M E N!!!!!!



Psalm 104:19

He made the moon to mark the seasons; the sun knows its time for setting.



Isaiah 45:18

For thus says the LORD,who created the heavens(he is God!),who formed the earth and made it(he established it;he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!):"I am the LORD, and there is no other.



Jeremiah 10:12

It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom,and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.
eventhorizen
2008-04-24 14:40:25 UTC
I don't know if it's a good idea to back unbelievers into a corner like that. Of course they have no explanation for the creation of earth! But they don't want to admit it, so then they blast OUR religion to cover up their mistakes.
2008-04-24 09:09:33 UTC
I believe there is a Creator.



I also believe that it is selfish for anyone to claim that they are so special that they are the only one who knows the Creator's plan and personality. That goes for any New Age "psychic" as well as anyone who has written a holy book that claims that there is only "one" correct path.



Any "knowledge" of a Creator, is totally subjective. Feel free to share you interpretation with people who have a similar belief to you, but claiming that others are "wrong" is just Vain-Glory on your part.
2008-04-24 09:14:53 UTC
What you creatonists ALWAYS fail to take into account is numbers. There are millions of stars with billions of planets around them. Of all that, for all we know, this is the ONLY one with life on it. And if there are others, they are certainly few and far between. Think about how big a hundred billion is. Look at that number.100,000,000,000. The odds improve DRASTICALLY with that kind of number in the equation.
2008-04-24 09:06:19 UTC
And you understand that barren tundras and arctic wastes, deserts etc. cast doubt upon the notion that the earth is "perfectly" situated. Animal species only survive because they can adapt to its imperfections.
jesussaves
2008-04-24 09:05:31 UTC
they will use the breath that God gave then to curse him



they will use the intelligence the God gave them to question him



they will take the beauty of creation that God provided and give credit to anything but the Creator
save the humans
2008-04-24 09:04:56 UTC
AMEN!!!
grump56
2008-04-24 09:04:55 UTC
Yep, I agree. It all had to begin somewhere. I choose to believe God did it.
2008-04-24 09:04:13 UTC
Good points, Primo...bravo!
2008-04-24 09:07:50 UTC
Yes, Flying Spaghetti Monster adjusts orbits according to His plan with His Noodly Appendage.
Herodotus
2008-04-24 09:08:17 UTC
Liquid water would would be present within a wide margin of space. Life adapted to this world, and so is perfectly suited for it. If you consider the number of possibilities for inhabitable planets, Earth is not breaking any odds in being as it is.



It is your idea of god that seems unlikely.
Dreamstuff Entity
2008-04-24 09:06:09 UTC
Claim CI301:

The cosmos is fine-tuned to permit human life. If any of several fundamental constants were only slightly different, life would be impossible. (This claim is also known as the weak anthropic principle.)



Response:



1. The claim assumes life in its present form is a given; it applies not to life but to life only as we know it. The same outcome results if life is fine-tuned to the cosmos.



We do not know what fundamental conditions would rule out any possibility of any life. For all we know, there might be intelligent beings in another universe arguing that if fundamental constants were only slightly different, then the absence of free quarks and the extreme weakness of gravity would make life impossible.



Indeed, many examples of fine-tuning are evidence that life is fine-tuned to the cosmos, not vice versa. This is exactly what evolution proposes.



2. If the universe is fine-tuned for life, why is life such an extremely rare part of it?



3. Many fine-tuning claims are based on numbers being the "same order of magnitude," but this phrase gets stretched beyond its original meaning to buttress design arguments; sometimes numbers more than one-thousandfold different are called the same order of magnitude (Klee 2002).



How fine is "fine" anyway? That question can only be answered by a human judgment call, which reduces or removes objective value from the anthropic principle argument.



4. The fine-tuning claim is weakened by the fact that some physical constants are dependent on others, so the anthropic principle may rest on only a very few initial conditions that are really fundamental (Kane et al. 2000). It is further weakened by the fact that different initial conditions sometimes lead to essentially the same outcomes, as with the initial mass of stars and their formation of heavy metals (Nakamura et al. 1997), or that the tuning may not be very fine, as with the resonance window for helium fusion within the sun (Livio et al. 1989). For all we know, a universe substantially different from ours may be improbable or even impossible.



5. If part of the universe were not suitable for life, we would not be here to think about it. There is nothing to rule out the possibility of multiple universes, most of which would be unsuitable for life. We happen to find ourselves in one where life is conveniently possible because we cannot very well be anywhere else.



6. Intelligent design is not a logical conclusion of fine tuning. Fine tuning says nothing about motives or methods, which is how design is defined. (The scarcity of life and multi-billion-year delay in it appearing argue against life being a motive.) Fine-tuning, if it exists, may result from other causes, as yet unknown, or for no reason at all (Drange 2000).



7. In fact, the anthropic principle is an argument against an omnipotent creator. If God can do anything, he could create life in a universe whose conditions do not allow for it.
♥≈Safi≈♥ ☼of the Atheati☼
2008-04-24 09:05:52 UTC
It's a one-in-a-billion chance that a planet could align itself just so, so that all this could happen.



Lucky for us, there are untold billions of stars and planets and moons out there.
Om
2008-04-24 09:06:06 UTC
Anthropic principle. We live on a planet that is able to support life, because if it wasn't able to support life (and there are billions of such planets) we wouldn't be there to observe that it isn't.
JJLICIOUS
2008-04-24 09:06:17 UTC
If there has to be a creator for the earth and life as we know it then who created god? He couldn't have always existed, right? And if he did .... who's to say the universe hasn't always existed?
2008-04-24 12:07:25 UTC
Genesis chapter 1 says it all - :D
2008-04-24 09:45:24 UTC
the fact that you arnt open minded and wont look into details about anything any proves you are irrational
2008-04-24 09:09:21 UTC
Well because I believe that 'chance' does not mean 'creation'.
2008-04-24 09:07:34 UTC
Wow, what a collection of comic-book science and strawman arguments, spiced with Christian arrogance.



You need to stop getting your "information" from creationist propaganda sources, and find someone more honest, kid.



People may agree with you, but you are, in fact, wrong.
2008-04-24 10:40:07 UTC
God is, was and shall be. He created, takes away, and will continue. God made all of what we see and understand. ;)
2008-04-24 09:17:45 UTC
You birds are always questioning science , but you never say how your big Bozo did all that you credit him for . Magic wands are great if children's fairy tales , but we grow out of of fairy tales in time .

So you claim that "god" did it all . Tell us step by step how he did it , where he got the materials , how he transported the materials, and most of all - - how do you know ?

You're welcome
2008-04-24 09:05:49 UTC
Once again, we evolved within this environment. The environment did not evolve around us.



Very simple to understand, really.
2008-04-24 09:05:35 UTC
Oh that clears that up then, no need to think for myself when I've got a christian fundamentalist to tell me how it happened!

Please make me laugh by at least explaining you theory
2008-04-24 09:08:05 UTC
Did you think we might have adapted, evolved, to match the planet?
Jedi Tabby
2008-04-24 09:06:58 UTC
why is your creation the only valid one?



why can't the greeks be right? or the norse? or the pastafarians?
2008-04-24 09:05:48 UTC
It takes more than one Jose'.
steve
2008-04-24 09:17:15 UTC
Which God were you taking about?
JonJon, Cake Factory
2008-04-24 09:03:53 UTC
Look up the anthropic principle.



"I've never heard of this "anthropic principle".......nor do I care to hear about it. I have one principle: Creation is the absolute truth!"



Well, there ya go. I'd only ask why you ask the question, if that's the case.
2008-04-24 09:05:47 UTC
"God is the One who created it.......put it into motion.....and is still in control of it all as we speak."



Prove it.
Z1LL/\, PBF*
2008-04-24 09:05:15 UTC
Thor has been good to us!
Dr Abbey
2008-04-24 09:05:02 UTC
which god?



i don't understand how any of this points to yours....


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