Question:
Jehovah's Witnesses, I have a question?
Big Guy 360
2009-05-13 03:16:17 UTC
Jn 1:3 says in reference to Christ, "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence". How could Christ have been a created being if ALL things came into existence through him? If Jesus was a created being, then according to Jn 1:3, Jesus would have had to create himself.
Twenty answers:
Apple of My Eye
2009-05-13 09:50:47 UTC
First of all TWS cannot even begin to defend this point because they had changed the bible in John 1 from Jesus was God to that He was "a" god. They have preconceived ideas that they are trying to make the bible conform to. It doesn't work like that. People who seek the truth, try to understand what the bible is saying not make the bible fit what they are saying.



This whole debate is whether Jesus and God the Father are one and the same or whether Jesus is Michael the Archangel.





Jesus never told anyone NOT to worship Him. When he healed the man who was born blind, the man worshipped him and Jesus did not stop him. Yet the angel who showed John the Revelation would not allow him to worship him. So therefore, Jesus revealed that he is not an angel. Jesus said in another place that we should worship God alone. Therefore we can conclude that He was God.



Angels are lessor beings not to be worshipped. They are simply "messengers" as their name means.





Do you Jehovah's Witnesses really mean to disrespect and dishonor Jesus in that way?



Maybe, not being of the spirit world yet, we cannot understand how the Father and the Son merge to form one being. We all think we are so smart down here when we don't understand a thing about God's realm.
guilluim
2009-05-13 06:02:59 UTC
Before you say I should learn Greek, I will let you know that I am Greek. I'll give you a quick lesson in biblical Greek with links to Thayer's lexicon and Strong's concordance.



Your logic is twisted. John 1:1-2 already shows that Jesus existed as a divine being or godlike. You really don't want to go into that argument of John 1:1 where I can show you in all instances of the usage of Greek grammar with an indefinite article. You would be embarrassed that in all instances that an "a" is inserted before the subject. Now since the previous verses already established that he existed before all other creations we can begin.



Jn 1:3 - "All things came into existence through him." or "Through him all things were made;". Which ever tickles your fancy. He helped to create all living things.

Prov 8:30 calls Jesus a "master worker" Or, “a fosterling.” Heb., ’amohn′; T, “proving faithful”; LXX, “acting suitably”; Vg, “composing all things.” He helped God/Jehovah create all things. Thayer's lexicon says this, "where he is expressly distinguished from the first cause" and previously it said, "that God is the author or first cause" and also "of the instrument used to accomplish a thing" and "by means of, with the help of, any thing". So it shows in the Greek language of the word "through" that Jesus is seperate from the first cause (Jehovah)



Rev 3:14 - "And to the angel of the congregation in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God," or "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation."

The Greek word here is mistranslated as "ruler". It carries a different meaning of the word. Thayer's lexicon states, "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause". Rev 3:14 is the only place where the word is used in this sense and shows that Jesus was the "active cause" not the first cause. Active indicates creation had already begun.



Col 1:15 - "firstborn" means just that, first born. Thayer's lexicon says this, "who came into being through God prior to the entire universe of created things"



Isaiah 44:6 - Jehovah says talking about his Godship that he is "the first" and "the last" and there is no other God.



Your lesson in Greek is complete. Look at the non JW links and read for yourself.



Edit - Did you look up the links on a anti JW site I posted? If you did you would see that not only Strong's concordance agrees with what I have written but so does the lexicons used to formulate the other translations. So are the lexicons and the concordance biased? I just quoted from there for you. All that does is confirm my biblical Greek. Are you going to challenge the sources? John 1:1 does not have the definite article. No definite article means that an "a" should be in front of it like in every other instance in the Greek scriptures.



Edit 2 - Your literal translation is correct except that at the end it only has the definite article as "the word" and an indefinite article before god. So, "In beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and a god was the word." This is where the fun begins. Theos has more than one meaning. Here it says at the end literally "divine was the word". Vines expository dictionary says this in regards to John 1:1, "The Divine attributes are likewise indicated or definitely predicated of Christ". This is why it has been translated previously as "the word was divine" or "the word was godlike". Latter translations changed it to put their own biased belief of the trinity. We have no problem in that Jesus is divine in nature, but there is a distinction between him (son) and Jehovah (father). They are two separate entities. Once again the links I provide are non JW links. If you are really looking for the truth you will find it. If your looking to just insult without looking for an honest answer then you will not find anything. I wasn't always a JW. I did my research with an open mind.



Challenge the Greek source which back up what I say. It will be funny to see.
2009-05-13 03:47:43 UTC
If you really wanted Jehovah's Witnesses to answer your question, you wouldn't have them blocked from doing so.



Shame on you.



- Also, it's a matter of using some common sense. The Bible already established that Jesus was created by God. Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14 make that abundantly clear. So that's an established truth. Once you acknowledge that, then it becomes very obvious that God gave Jesus the power and ability to create everything else. Jesus being the only-begotten Son is the ONLY creation that came directly from God himself, everything else came about through Jesus.



- Did you all notice how the asker quoted from a Bible that changed the wording of the scripture? Colossians 1:15 actually says that Jesus is "the firstborn of all creation".....not "over" as he worded it. Talk about someone being truly blinded by faulty translations.....and then he has the nerve to take out the verbiage of Revelation 3:14 where it very clearly says "the beginning of the creation by God". This guy has his own agenda and anyone who disagrees with him (even though HE is completely wrong here) is in the wrong......LOL!
2009-05-13 19:00:08 UTC
John 1:1 " In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."



God is from the Greek word "theos" which means "mighty one"

Jesus can be considered mighty or god because he was given an authority by His father.



but it's not meant in John 1:1 that Jesus is the ALMIGHTY GOD. The title ALMIGHTY GOD is only for the father.



Jesus Christ, himself said he has a beginning.



Proverbs 8:22-31 says, "“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men."



Jesus admitted that God (the father-Jehovah) is more powerful or greater than him.



John 14:28 "YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am."



No wonder Jehovah, the Father knows about the end of the system of things and Jesus Christ did not.



“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."-Matthew 24:36



Jesus admitted he has a God. If Jesus is a God, he must not have a God.



Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’-John 20:17.



Jesus Christ has a heavenly father who is separate from him.





Luke 1:30-32 says , "So the angel said to her: “Have no fear, Mary, for you have found favor with God; and, look! you will conceive in your womb and give birth to a son, and you are to call his name Jesus. This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High"



Psalms 83:18 says. "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth."
Smiling JW™
2009-05-13 03:55:41 UTC
Colossians 1:15,16 says that Christ is the firstborn of all creation that all things were created THROUGH him for him.



God created his only begotten Son Jesus, and God after that created all other things through Jesus and God did it for Jesus. So John 1:3 is correct in saying that and supports Colossians 1:15,16 that Jesus is the begotten Son with all the other evidences of Christ is not part of a trinity.



(Colossians 1:15-16) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.



You can't break what the Bible says in clear print.
godofme4ever
2009-05-13 11:25:01 UTC
Harners Article on the Translation of John1:1 Professor Harner published and extensive article in the JOURNAL OF BIBLICAL LITERATURE, 1973, pp. 75-58 on the subject of John 1:1. He said:



"Anarthrous predicate nouns preceding the verb may function primarily to express the nature or character of the subject, and this qualitative significance may be more important than the question whether the predicate noun itself should be regarded as definite or indefinite." p. 75



"If the (Greek) writer simply wished to represent the subject as one of a class, he could use and anarthrous predicate noun after the verb." p. 87



Harner then proceeded to show the different ways John could have written this verse if he had not meant for us to understand it to read "God was the Word."



HO LOGOS EH HO THEOS.....would mean that LOGOS and THEOS were equivalent and interchangeable. There would be no HO THEOS which is not HO LOGOS. But this equation of the two would contradict the preceding clause of John 1:1.



HO LOGOS EN THEOS........would probably mean that the LOGOS was 'a god' or a divine being of some kind.....



HO LOGOS EN THEIOS.......would mean that the LOGOS was 'divine' without specifying further in what or to what extent...it could also imply that the LOGOS being only THEIOS was subordinate to THEOS....



HO LOGOS THEOS EN........means that the LOGOS (rather than something else) has the nature of THEOS.......



THEOS EN HO LOGOS........means that the LOGOS has the nature of THEOS (rather than something else). In this clause, the form John actually uses, the word THEOS is placed at the beginning for emphasis.



Harner clearly showed that if John had wanted us to understand that Jesus was only 'a god' he would have written HO LOGOS EN THEOS instead of THEOS EN HO LOGOS.



JOHN WAS INSPIRED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT



According to Harner, John meant for us to understand that "God was the Word" by the very way he wrote it (under inspiration of the Holy Spirit). From the very opening to the closing of this Gospel the theme is the Nature and work of the Son of God. He introduces this Gospel with the thought that Jesus is of the same Nature and Essence or Kind as God.



The two clauses that open this Gospel clarify how the third clause should be translated. This is what Colwell was referring to when he said that CONTEXT indicates how such passages should be dealt with. We should therefore examine closely the context of this verse.



John said Jesus was: 1. ETERNAL - en arche



2. EQUAL - pros ton Theon



3. The same essence as the Father - Theos en ho Logos



En arche en ho Logos kai ho Logos en pros ton theos kai THEOS en source In beginning WAS the Word and the Word was with the God and God was originally toward ho logos



the word



There are two very significant words in this passage: WAS and WITH



WAS......Originally the Word WAS - He did not start or begin - He already WAS! When the FIRST creation of God came into being the Word already existed. Therefore, He cannot be one of those creations.



"The verb WAS does not express a completed past, but rather a continuous state. The imperfect tense of the original suggests in this relation, as far as human language can do so, the notion of absolute, supra-temporal existence."



THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO ST JOHN, B.F. Westcott, p. 2



WITH.....He was WITH God - He did not come to BE with God because He already WAS! The Greek word for WITH is PROS and in the Accusative Case with a verb of rest this means:



"with the Acc(usative) of a person after verbs of remaining, dwelling, tarrying etc (which requires one to be conceived of always turned towards one).......Jn i:1.."



THAYERS GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, P. 452, Sect 2b



"The phrase (en pros.....) is remarkable. ....The idea conveyed by it is not that of simple coexistence, as of two persons contemplated separately in company, ...... or united under a common conception ...... but of being (in some sense) directed towards and regulated by that with which the relation is fixed (v 19). the personal being of the word was realized in active intercourse with and in perfect communion with God."



The Greek says it all. When the first creation of God came into being the Word was with God in the sense of perfect harmony and communion. The context of John 1:1 only allows for "the Word was God" in a word-for-word translation which the New World Translation claims to be.



Why does the Watchtower Society of Jehovah's Witnesses keep mis-representing what Harner said?
LoyalOne
2009-05-13 05:08:31 UTC
You can't take a single scripture and make a conclusion. The entire Bible must be taken into consideration.



The Scriptures say that the Father, NOT the Son, is the true Creator. 1 Cor. 8:6 says: "Yet for us [there is] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom [are] all things, and through whom we [live.]"



If you want to highlight the word "all," this verse should satisfy you, which I know it won't. It says that the Father--the one God--is the Creator of ALL THINGS. Wouldn't that include Jesus, his only-begotten Son?
2009-05-14 01:41:49 UTC
Lets all headbutt the wall.

The JWs cannot admit this - doing so would be going against the "Mighty (or should that be Almighty) Watchtower" preachings.



Then they would have to question everything else the Watchtower has suggested, implied, created, stated.
Preston
2009-05-13 03:33:33 UTC
In Col 1:15 it calls Jesus the firstborn, so he did have a beginning.
Question It All
2009-05-13 07:09:59 UTC
Good try jw's but firstborn also has a definition of being most excellent; most distinguished or exalted.



On a side-note I would wonder about SmilingJW. He quotes Colossians here but ignores Colossians when I asked about celebrating Christmas...



Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.(Col. 2:16)
PediC
2009-05-13 18:29:45 UTC
One of your answerers claims expertise in Greek written language translation by virtue of his Greek heritage. That aside....



interestingly, being of national origin does not make one an expert in their own written language. Look at the native english speakers here in Yahoo Answers whose grammatical errors in their posts make their readers wince.



Readers really have to beware. People here claim all kinds of expertise. Just like saying your religion is The Truth does not make it so by virtue of repetition.
LyndaLee
2009-05-13 05:43:12 UTC
Genesis chapter one verse one

In the begining God(Eloheim) created the earth.

IN hebrew Eloheim is plural

so technically

In the beginning Gods created the earth.

Just an FyI
2009-05-13 04:08:39 UTC
Read Exodus 23:20 and see an angel that was God 's representative....that angel has the name of Jehovah within him....appears several times.....that is Michael the one God sent to earth



NEVER in the bible appears that God himself came to earth and became his own son jesus as mamny says...NO...John 3:16 says God SENT someone from heaven..who???...HIS FIRST HEAVENLY SON ....THE Archangel....Michael



There are about 50 verses in the bible since the begining until the ned that point out that Jesus is the human name of the first heavenly son of God almighty Jehovah....his heavenly name is Michael....



Don't Get surprise...the majority don't know What date Jesus died for our sins...and it is in the bible.....also this information is in the bible....but they don't know it.



------------------------------------------------------------------



is there any place in the Bible where an angel is called "a god," besides Satan being called the god of this world in 2 Cor. 4:3-4?



YES...Psalms 82:6....the sons of God are called gods....and angels are sons of God
RussJW
2009-05-13 04:09:43 UTC
Anna said God Created His WOrd. He created himself. Nice conclusion very logical ;-)



I think you better address the question to all. Even atheist can answer your Q with just plain logic. (no offense). Just my honest opinion. Smiling JW made a good answer ;-)
elisabeth_rb
2009-05-13 10:54:09 UTC
To my mind, people who ask questions with the sole purpose of making others look foolish etc have to ask themselves some serious questions about their motives and think carefully about their Christian personalities!
2009-05-13 03:42:00 UTC
but these scriptures say he was created



rev 3:14

col 1:15

isiah 44:6





i think your taking the scripture you quoted out of context



edit: LORD, not lord, this is where the confusion comes in. and it calls him almighty, jesus is always called mighty, and god always almighty
~♥Anna♥~
2009-05-13 03:25:48 UTC
Amen, God created with His WORD. He spoke things into existence.



God said... "Let there be..." and not one thing came into existence without the Word of God!!!
2009-05-13 08:58:13 UTC
Jesus was not created he was born or begotten entirely different thing
2009-05-13 03:52:53 UTC
Because Jesus did make himself. Don´t try to understand it. It´s magic!
Quantum
2009-05-13 03:27:33 UTC
I think they take them parts out!


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