Question:
Evolutionists, name an absolute proven fact of macro evolution and please give references?
CELESTE
2011-09-30 21:32:10 UTC
I do not want any proven facts of micro evolution (lateral change such as a bacteria changing into another more resistant bacteria) it's still a bacterium- which all Creationists accept but I would like to know what is the strongest fact of macro evolution, which has been proven by observation/experimentation/beyond any doubt etc. Macro evolution is Molecules to Man evolution generated by nothing but random forces of nature gradually and the mechanisms are natural selection & mutation.
Sixteen answers:
?
2011-09-30 23:54:45 UTC
@ PTE-pieces can seem 2 look right but-Ev has huge holes=no Ev. Ppl CONFUSE TRUTH(offends many)/HATE/impose human limits/labels 2 God's abilities(call Ev whats only Adapt)=dumb limits-God's Creation order isnt as man thinks/24hr day not made till 4th day/Bible doesnt say earth's age. Scientific-method cant prove BB/BBnc/Ev/Abiog theories-billions of yrs old COLD cases/DIDNT SEE it done. W/o UNCUT film (not photos) 4 b4 BB/life 2 2day=spec & 1 species' parts in another r just more species. Ev's a lie/calls in2 ? BB/Abiog-universe/we wouldnt exist w/o IDr:



1. We hv 2 lungs/kidneys/ears, arms/legs-each has a NEAR PERFECT 3D MIRROR-IMAGE companion organ/limb (not a copy). RNA/DNA rep/mirror image amino acid prod CANT EXPLAIN IT AWAY. 2 make mirror-image organs takes FULL REVERSE ENGINEERING/knowledge of companion's functions/purpose or it cant b created 2 perfection in nature (2 WITNESSES in nature=KILLS Ev).

2. Our bodies r highly symmetrical 1 side 2 the other-impossible w/o an outside overview pov 4 full knowledge of whole lifeform.

3. Cells/organisms r just copies of, copy parents'/all ancestors' acts. U wont find a bird building a better nest than parents/chicks build even better nests/bears passing better life 2 cubs. Cells HV 2 LIVES-1 copying parents/1 SECRET, working on improvements or God's the Creator.

4. Fossil record doesnt hv millions of trial/error phyla that should exist if NS/fittest survivor is Creation source-odds r so great against near perfection 4 many millions of greatly diverse species, such precision cant happen w/o 1rst having full knowledge 4 what 2 do (even adding billions of yrs byond universe start cant solve problem). If not true millions more misfits with mistakes-having only 1/3 eyes in odd places/1 leg growing out of a head/where a fin/arm/wing should b, etc would exist than perfection seen in nature.

5. Picture u boxed (near 0 intell) within a microscopic cell-smaller than a txt period/no way 2 sense much beyond ur cell. How can u, with these real limits invent millions of such diverse species 2 perfection in nature? NO OTHER ORGANISMS EXISTED so cells r great geniuses or Ev's a lie.

6. Cells need DNA 2 function/DNA's useless w/o a cell-which came 1rst a cell or DNA? DNA's very complex (esp 4 higher lifeforms) so odds against figuring out/using DNA (in correct sequences/related processes) is many magnitudes higher than 4 pc program code-useless w/o an IDr 2 identify/assign its proper order. Give apes books-cant learn from whats written w/o intell. DNA's COMMON 2 ALL LIFE-98% of other species' DNA doesnt=Ev.

7. Look @ ID/knowledge, time/energy used 2 create/improve (many mistakes) airplanes. If ppl didnt learn what 2 do we'd still b grounded.

8. Creation's astronomically more complex than airplanes-more complex an organism multiplies ID/knowledge needed 2 create it-Creation source is God or it couldnt exist let alone evolve (adapt not Ev built in 4 survival).

9. Earth has best orbit/gravity/axis/spin/atmosphere, magnet field, water/moon has right size/orbit 4 tidal cycles/many foods tasting good, 4 life~1-2 small diffs 4 orbits/environment=most likely life'd b diff/higher lifeforms die in short time if it survived.



MICRO ADAPT's legit not macro-Ev. Most is inconclusive @ best/pure conjecture @ worst. Ev processes being Creation source=having a blind man build a car he's never heard of/seen/touched/heard or rode in-cant b done w/o 1rst teaching him about functions/all parts/car assembly 4 it 2 work (same limits 4 cells=no Ev).



Only 1 God can occupy infinity, God of Israel=NO CAUSE NEEDED 2 EXIST/declare end from start-only fully proved b/c Jesus is God's Son. Jesus couldnt hv done whats in NT w/o knowing whole OT (impossible w/o God causing it-NT didnt exist yet)/Apostles couldnt write NT w/o Jesus having them remember all He did (Lk 24:25-27,45).



Most religions r built on ideas/gods man likes-cant all b right (only 1 Bible-why so many interps? II Pet 1:19-21). Religion doesnt=the truth/cant teach much about God (cant teach what u don't know). NO1 can live W/O BREAKING God's eternal LAW=sin-separates us from God=death (why u need 2 b rightly Born Anew in Jesus). Who knows more about a house-the Builder or ppl moving in later?



God outsmarted us: reading the Bible (religious/not) u cant find Jesus w/o Bible directions (Jn 5:39/10:1,7/3:3,5)/only a Bible cant b rightly known w/o Jesus (Jn 14:6/II Cor 3:14/Is 29:11-12~if Jewish ppl cant unveil OT w/o Jesus all gentiles cant=why many interps exist/called fairy tales). God knew many'd twist His word & used unchangeable system (like God/Jesus/Prv 30:4-6). God's 66 legit Bible Bks/mindset/message 4ever binds OT/NT truth 2 His system. English Standard Version (ESV) is easiest Bible 2 read.



In history only Jesus said He's the way/truth/life-no1 sees God w/o Him (Jn 14:6/5:39/Acts 4:12)=All new/other claims r false/godless or Jesus is 1 more false prophet 2 ignore.



voyc4rmwldrns
2011-09-30 21:37:51 UTC
You (human) from a common ancestor with apes 5 million years ago or so, via at least 10 intermediate species.



Yes, that's a proven fact of "macro" evolution. Whether you accept it or not. The fossil and genetic evidence are overwhelming in showing it correct.



You can find the "references" in the approximately 26,549 peer-reviewed scientific papers published in scientific journals over the past 30 years or so on the subject (and many many thousands more before that). They're not on the web, you'll have to either subscribe to them or read them in a university laboratory. You know, make some effort and go learn something. Or is that too much to ask, and you'd rather sit around and be lazy and claim an imaginary god for which there is no evidence of any kind did everything within the past 6,000 years?



Peace.
2016-03-01 07:04:25 UTC
Well, because they consider it evolution! The basic evolutionary theory says that if you add micro-evolution together you get macro-evolution. Lots of small changes create a big change. A hundred cents make a dollar. The anti-evolutionists agree! To a point. They agree that IF you added lots and lots of small changes together you'd get big changes. This is why the concept of micro and macro evolution is so important - it posits a boundary condition on change beyond which the change cannot go. Canadian cents are not part of US dollars - they're entirely different things. So what is this "boundary"? How does it work? The charitable answer is that it is a theoretical construct a bit like "dark matter": The theory suggests its existance, but it hasn't be found yet. The less charitable answer is that its a load of nonesense they made up to rescue their theory.
Bruce
2011-10-02 17:13:14 UTC
As I read the answers here, I find two types of "proven fact."



1. Changes within a species, i.e., microevolution.



2. Speculation based on flimsy or spurious fossil evidence.



There is no good evidence for any species morphing into a new species. Darwinism is simply handwaving, a 19th century speculation. It offers unfalsifiable claims and attempts to verify them rather than subjecting them to genuine hypothesis testing.



Cheers,

Bruce
2011-09-30 21:33:15 UTC
Nothing is absolute proof.



Now show consistency and give an absolute proven fact for creationism.









EDIT: Incorrect. First of all - why can't one take science on faith - you're being inconsistent. You're doing what theists always do, which is set far higher standards for everyone's theories but your own.



Secondly, even gravity is not ABSOLUTE PROOF. Nothing in science is. All science does is test theories and the more consistent results you get, the more you trust the theory compared to other theories.
2011-09-30 21:34:38 UTC
Beyond any doubt will not happen. We can't possibly find every single step. But think of it this way. If there was a man on trial for the murder of a woman, and parts of the murder were caught on security tape (ex, him walking around with a bloody knife, dragging her body out the door) would you doubt that he was guilty? missing steps don't mean that they never existed.
For Goodness Sake
2011-09-30 21:36:16 UTC
Look around you, you see the results of apaptation and chemical reactions over a large time period. What do you want me to say? Your proof is all around. That tree that stands tall, that dog that says bark bark, that brain in your head. Its true Ive seen it happen... Its like watching the grass grow. I guess you cant see it to believe it, but that doesnt mean creationists should make up stories to explain how things came to be. (Macro and Micro occur at the same time, Micro causing Macro.)

Anyway, heres something another user once said to me...



"MANATEES

Manatees have hipsockets! They also have rudimentary pelvises, elephant-like toenails, & flipper skeletons homologous to the forelimbs of 4-legged land mammals, including having 5 finger bones. Also, we found a fossil of a manatee ancestor (evident from its downturned jaw, solid ribs, & other characters) that had 4 full-size legs, & also a more-recent one that had 4 legs but with the back 2 reduced in size.



CETACEANS

Whale & dolphin embryos begin forming hind limbs! Plus they form a full coat of hair, just to lose it before birth. And they don’t form their blowholes directly: instead, they first form 2 nostrils just above the mouth – like 4-legged land mammals have – that then must migrate to the top of the head & fuse.



In addition, whales and dolphins have forelimb skeletons that are homologous to those of 4-legged land mammals. Then there are the fossils of half a dozen species with transitional features.



BIRDS

Birds have some genes for making teeth! These are remnant genetic instructions, left over from their reptilian ancestors. So too are the genetic instructions that make bird embryos 1st form a long, bony tail - no birds have long bony tails, but reptiles do - just to have a good part of it resorbed & fused to form the avian pygostyle. Then there's the Hoatzin having claws on its front limbs right after hatching: birds don't have claws on their front limbs, but reptiles do.



Then there's Archaeopteryx: a fossil "bird" (it had feathers, wings, & a furcula) that had a set of reptilian characters, such as teeth, claws on the front limbs, a long bony tail, & a neck that attaches to the back of the skull: no modern birds have those 4 characters, but modern reptiles do.



We also have found fossils that show many extinct reptiles - dinosaurs - had feathers, ranging from extremely simple to complex. And reptiles & birds group together, at the exclusion of all other animals, because they express beta-keratins in the skin. And, the beta-keratin in the claws of the alligator (a reptile) & the beta-keratin of the feathers of birds have a core box that shows 80% sequence identity.



In addition, for a long time, a unidirectional flow of air through the lungs was considered a character unique to birds: all birds had it & no animals other than birds did. But a recent study found that alligators also have unidirectional flow of air through the lung! Further, we have found fossils of extinct reptiles - dinosaurs - that show they had unidirectional flow of air through the lungs, with accessory air sacs, that protruded into partially hollowed-out bones.



And the old problem about digit identity has been solved by embryonic studies, which showed that a shift in Hox gene expression transformed the digit identities.



HUMANS

Human embryos form a tail! Unlike the vast majority of vertebrates, humans don't have tails (& neither do chimps, bonobos, gorillas, or orangutans, our 4 closest living relatives!), yet we form one in embryonic development, just to have it largely resorbed & fused to form our coccyx.



Human embryos also start off with the eyes on the side of the head, like the eyes of adult and embryonic fish; our eyes must migrate toward the front of the face to end up in the human-appropriate location.



Human embryos also start off with a very fishlike arrangement of aortae & aortic arches, which then require much remodeling to arrive at an arrangement appropriate for humans. Also, human embryos form fishlike pharyngeal arches, & even pharyngeal slits transiently."
Maurog IV
2011-09-30 21:34:26 UTC
Every case of ring species is macro-evolution by definition. Now what?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species
Shinigami
2011-09-30 21:54:25 UTC
God alone does not change.



Everything else is subject to change.



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm#IIC

quote

It is written, "I am the Lord, and I change not" (Malachi 3:6).



quote

In God "there is no change, nor shadow of alteration" (James 1:17); "They [i.e. "the works of thy hands"] shall perish, but thou shalt continue: and they shall all grow old as a garment. And as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: but thou art the selfsame and thy years shall not fail" (Hebrews 1:10-12, Psalm 101:26-28. Cf. Malachi 3:6; Hebrews 13:8).

/quote



And for man and nature, everything is about change

http://biblebrowser.com/ecclesiastes/3-1.htm

Eccl 3:1-9



quote

1There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven—



2A time to give birth and a time to die;

A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.



3A time to kill and a time to heal;

A time to tear down and a time to build up.



4A time to weep and a time to laugh;

A time to mourn and a time to dance.



5A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones;

A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing.



6A time to search and a time to give up as lost;

A time to keep and a time to throw away.



7A time to tear apart and a time to sew together;

A time to be silent and a time to speak.



8A time to love and a time to hate;

A time for war and a time for peace.



/quote
anotherone773
2011-09-30 21:36:27 UTC
Micro and macro evolution are christian terms.



Their is just evolution. That is it. It is an observation, fact, and theory.
2011-09-30 21:34:28 UTC
You ask the impossible, because such a process takes thousands to tens of thousands of years to occur.
OKIM IM
2011-09-30 21:36:02 UTC
A dinosaur with feathers is good enough evidence.
?
2011-09-30 21:33:00 UTC
Ensatina salamanders.
?
2011-09-30 21:33:31 UTC
Self replicating proteins.
2011-09-30 21:34:04 UTC
Human skin tones,,
logic
2011-09-30 21:33:51 UTC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_habilis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramidus


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