Question:
Atheist Nightmare: Why can't atheist explain the origin of life properly?
2008-09-13 09:39:57 UTC
Well herewith my proof that God exists and I have quoted sources. So if you really so sure of yourself try and "debunk" my theories!

Now we cross the line from the molecular to the living. Whether bacteria, animals, plants or people, we all have cells.
Cells consist of many biological elements that are enclosed in a cell membrane that allows certain molecules to pass out of it and let others in. It must be able to perform many functions: self-replicate, maintain itself by the construction of new proteins, regulate it's functions, etc.

Cells are tremendously complex and more complicated than any machine man has ever built. Even the smallest bacterial cell has 100 proteins, DNA, RNA, and contains one hundred billion atoms.

The simplest cells are not more primitive than, or ancestral of, larger ones. This poses an immediate problem. How do you get all the complicated machinery to work at the same time? It either all works or nothing works. For example, the information to construct the apparatus to synthesize proteins is stored in the DNA. But the extraction of this information requires the apparatus to be in place already (Denton 1985, 269).

To explain the evolution of the cell requires imagining simpler "proto-cells". One such idea by Francis Crick (Denton 1985, 265) uses a proto-cell that is allowed to make mistakes in protein formation (termed "statistical proteins") to create new systems. This is challenged by the knowledge that even small errors cause devastating biological consequences.

In short, explaining the origin of life is a big problem for evolutionists. It is such a problem that mainstream scientific literature even considers the possibility of life dropping in from outer space, called the theory of "panspermia" (Scientific American, Feb 1992). But even this only moves to problem one step outward
Seventeen answers:
2008-09-13 09:46:41 UTC
100 years ago we couldn't explain the flu, or reduce a fever, and it was common for people to die from it. Now we go to Walmart and buy a bottle of Tylenol and go back to work. The answer will come with time and study. Just because we don't have the answer today doesn't mean we won't have the answer one day.
2008-09-13 10:42:40 UTC
>Atheist Nightmare: Why can't atheist explain the origin of life properly?



What do you mean by 'can't explain it properly'? The reason we atheists can't say exactly how life on Earth originated is because it happened about 3.8 billion years ago and we weren't around back then to observe it and see how it happened. Asking an atheist to describe exactly how life started is kind of like asking a christian to describe exactly how Noah's Ark was built.



Also, on a side note, why can't christian use the plural of the word 'atheist' properly?



>Whether bacteria, animals, plants or people, we all have cells.



Yes, but bacteria, animals, plants and people aren't the only life forms on Earth. There are a number of other kingdoms of cellular life you didn't mention, and furthermore there are life forms such as viruses and prions which do NOT have cells.



>This poses an immediate problem. How do you get all the complicated machinery to work at the same time? It either all works or nothing works.



Ah, the good old irreducible complexity argument. Too bad it doesn't work. In my experience, creationist claims of irreducible complexity all base themselves on the assumption that more advanced, more dependent traits cannot replace more primitive, more independent ones. However, nothing in evolutionary theory suggests that this assumption is warranted.



>For example, the information to construct the apparatus to synthesize proteins is stored in the DNA. But the extraction of this information requires the apparatus to be in place already



Yep. All this means, though, is that one or the other of the two sides has replaced a more primitive kind of chemistry that served a similar purpose.



Consider this analogy. Let's say I have a computer that has a PS/2 port with a mouse connected to it. I go out and buy some USB connectors and attach them to my computer. Then I go out and buy a USB mouse and plug that into the USB connectors, and throw away the PS/2 mouse. Then I remove the PS/2 connector on the back of the computer case. I now have a computer which has a USB mouse connected to a USB port and no PS/2 port. The mouse can't run with a PS/2 port, and the computer can't be used without the mouse, so I must necessarily have bought both the computer (with the USB connectors) and the mouse all at once. Right?



Wrong. The reason it looks that way is because I've gotten rid of the old PS/2 mouse and PS/2 connector that I didn't need anymore. As I described above, I CAN actually convert the original computer with a PS/2 mouse and connector to a computer with only a USB mouse and connector. Just because the USB ports and the USB mouse are both necessary to use the computer does NOT mean that I must have bought them both at the same time. And life forms are the same way: They LOOK irreducibly complex because they have several interdependent parts, but that's only because the earlier parts that WEREN'T interdependent got replaced by the more efficient interdependent ones. These interdependent parts did NOT need to come into existence all at the same time.



>To explain the evolution of the cell requires imagining simpler "proto-cells". One such idea by Francis Crick (Denton 1985, 265) uses a proto-cell that is allowed to make mistakes in protein formation (termed "statistical proteins") to create new systems. This is challenged by the knowledge that even small errors cause devastating biological consequences.



So what? Evolution doesn't really care whether the mutations tend to be harmful or not. If a cell undergoes a mutation that is horribly bad for it, then that cell dies, and all the other ones without the mutation go on living and reproducing. This continues until one of the cells happens to get a good mutation, whereupon it reproduces faster and replaces all the other cells with cells of its own type. The chances of a mutation being harmful could be a million to one, and in a sufficiently large population of cells, evolution would still occur.
budding author
2008-09-13 10:34:03 UTC
As an atheist I don't have to prove anything.

I don't believe in God, it follows that I don't believe in any religion that worships a God, simple enough to understand isn't it?

As far as evolution is concerned it is a theory, it doesn't mean I have to believe this theory.

All I can say is that out of the two theories, creation where God was maybe bored one time and suddenly had a bright idea of creating the universe, all in 6 days, then having a rest!

Or evolution , then evolution wins hands down.

So to get back to your question, you are correct, I don't know the real origin of life,I am certain it wasn't the creation idea.

The onus of proof of creation is on you religious lot.

If your proof is all the BS you have just expounded , then after wading through it all you are basically saying that life of any form is far to complex for us mere mortals to replicate?? So if I can prove that we mere mortals have in fact replicated a life form, you will retract all the above 'flannel'?

You will stop believing in God?

No of course you wont, no more than I could ever believe in your God, no matter what proof was produced.

It may also help you in the future to bear in mind a far more basic item while atheist bashing:-

Not all atheists are evolutioists, and not all evolutionists are atheists, can we agree on that at least?

We atheists do not believe in God, period.

Evolutionists may still belive in God but not in the biblical idea of creation,God could for example have caused the suppose big bang, 6 days could be a biblical figure of speech , it could it fact have been 6 billion years, but God did it all, in his own mysterious way.

A good 'out' for religious folk when asked a question they cannot explain is:-

"God works in a mysterious way, his miracles to perform" !

So after reading all your BS I am only made aware that you don't really know what an atheist is.

Carry on bashing.
2008-09-13 09:49:42 UTC
"To explain the evolution of the cell requires imagining simpler "proto-cells". One such idea by Francis Crick (Denton 1985, 265) uses a proto-cell that is allowed to make mistakes in protein formation (termed "statistical proteins") to create new systems. This is challenged by the knowledge that even small errors cause devastating biological consequences. "



If there are millions of cells, it does not matter if hundreds of thousands die as a result of poor genetic inheritance. It is true that some small errors cause devastating consequences. But it is a lie to say that all do. Some are neutral, some are advantageous.



You can keep spreading your creationist claptrap, I'm packing it in. Bye.
?
2016-05-23 11:20:42 UTC
1. Evolutionary Theory does not extend any farther than the origin of Biodiversity. It's like expecting Germ Theory to answer the existence of the universe... 2. For the existence of the universe, the problem comes from the simple fact that temporality, spatiality and matter/energy were generated by the singularity and "big bang" event. To pose the question "what caused the big bang is inherently contradictory, because cause and affect require the existence of temporality (time) in order to exist, which was created by the singularity. From this simple information that there can be no cause for the beginning of the universe, or at least the cause is in no sense that works by the laws we can perceive. Without extra information to prove the existence of "other laws" I assume the current laws universally apply by reasonable basis and conclude that the existence (pre time, space and matter/enegry) has always existed. Simple as that.
jtrusnik
2008-09-13 10:21:22 UTC
A couple thousand years ago, people could not explain lightning strikes. They postulated that a deity was sitting in the clouds throwing them to earth. They didn't have the knowledge, nor the tools to discover the true causes, at the time. Does that mean that they must have been right?



Today, we do not yet know all of the steps for the origin of life. As anybody who follows the literature (such as myself) know, we have many steps now understood, and another gap is being filled in every couple of months.



Our current lack of knowledge is not evidence that something that we would call "alive" could not possibly emerge from something that we call "not alive." 2500 years ago, people like you talked about the lightning weapons of Zeus; the few naturalists would have been very curious about why lightning tended to hit mountains and the tallest trees most often.



Finally, your belief in god is not built on this lack of understanding. If scientists came out tomorrow and said, "We got it," and proceeded to show what the early earth must have looked like and showed how life would inevitably rise, would you really drop your belief in god? I sincerely doubt it.
miyuki & kyojin
2008-09-13 10:01:24 UTC
Panspermia explains nothing, as you noted, but just saying, "God did it", is no better, and you cannot see that. Both just move the problem around without really answering it. Scientists have learned much about the origins of life, but religious people know nothing about that and are satisfied with pretenses of explanations. Building blocks of life have been synthesized by recreating early conditions on Earth, and that shows scientists will soon have the whole sequence. Your mindless repeat of the "irreducible complexity" argument shows ignorance of the fact that it has been refuted by scientists. You should read some science and stop wasting time on creationists' nonsense.
2008-09-13 10:11:36 UTC
Yes, it is a complex process and it took billions of years to begin. Should you have any concept of "billions" of years then you would understand how the process could come about. Proteins can be created, which has been proven, and they can combine and they can then form RNA which can replicate which can eventually form DNA. And yes it is quite probable that life on this planet was dropped from a passing planet which is described in the Sumerian Tablets. Gosh, I am glad we got that straightened out. Then we won`t have to read any more of these stupid questions.
dr schmitty
2008-09-13 09:50:45 UTC
this question implies that religion answers the question; in reality neither does, but the science behind evolution is considered sound by virtually everyone with any training in biology. the religious accounts, on the other hand, spark serious debates among the different sects of the faithful. at least atheists/ evolutionists/ whatever you wanna call us dont get involved in arguments over which parts of evolutionary theory are to be taken literally vs. which are "metaphors", "allegories", etc.





in sum, you're a hypocrite. religion does nothing to "explain" the origin of life, but if we are going to ever figure this out the answer is gonna come from science, not an ancient magic book allegedly written by some god. you're not slaying any atheists with that.
ANDRE L
2008-09-13 09:50:50 UTC
Fallacy of Personal Incredulity. You fail.



All of your moronic claims have been long debunked. Moreover, creation MYTHS offer NO evidence and NO methodology to find out things, so your claims are a call to permanent blind ignorance.

----

Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

- Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981



Let me try to make crystal clear what is established beyond reasonable doubt, and what needs further study, about evolution. Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry. By contrast, the mechanisms that bring evolution about certainly need study and clarification. There are no alternatives to evolution as history that can withstand critical examination. Yet we are constantly learning new and important facts about evolutionary mechanisms.



- Theodosius Dobzhansky "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution", American Biology Teacher vol. 35 (March 1973) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, J. Peter Zetterberg ed., ORYX Press, Phoenix AZ 1983
2008-09-13 09:45:30 UTC
why can't religionists understand the explanations?



"Even the smallest bacterial cell has 100 proteins"

- and viruses consist of as few as 4 proteins. Yet they replicate, parasitize other life, cause disease, reproduce and evolve.



"even small errors cause devastating biological consequences" - WRONGGGGGGG



Most transcription errors in fact cause no effect whatsoever. Of the remainder, some are fatal and some produce beneficial change. Over the billion-plus years that Abiogenesis had to get started sufficient time is available for accumulative beneficial changes.



"explaining the origin of life is a big problem for evolutionists" - WRONGGGGGG



"Evolutionists" study the Theory of Evolution by natural selection. The origin of life is not described in the Theory of Evolution; the origin of life is descibed by the quite separate Theory of Abiogenesis.



"Well herewith my proof that God exists" - WRONGGGGGG



You have not proved god exists. All that you have done is prove that you can selectively quote passages that others have written that you believe support your unsubstantiated beliefs. In effect, all that you have proved is that you believe that your lack of understanding of science proves god exists.
Jess H
2008-09-13 09:58:22 UTC
That's not proof of God. That's you making presumptions.



The difference between us and you, is we are willing to admit that we don't know *exactly* how life began at this point. You are just making something up to explain it, and then pretending that you "know" how life began.



The argument from complexity is a fallacy.



http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA100.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB010_2.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB010_1.html
2008-09-13 09:47:15 UTC
The first nondeterministic matter/energy systems were nowhere *near* as complex as a cell.
?
2016-05-02 23:57:39 UTC
Are you aware how dumb you sound when you mix up abiogenesis with evolution?
Acid Zebra
2008-09-13 09:43:56 UTC
So not understanding something yet (I will glance over your gross misrepresentations and misunderstandings, as they are not the core of your argument) is proof of your version of god? Your poor ignoramus, no wonder you believe in fairy tales.
2008-09-13 09:44:05 UTC
Atheists are not scientists.
?
2008-09-13 09:43:57 UTC
cos we are atheists, not scientists

why cant beleivers explain the complexities in the god existence?

cos they are not god experts , just god beleivers


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