Question:
Buddhism: Doesn't the notion of a soul reincarnating intact contradict the whole idea of losing the self?
anonymous
2007-03-29 06:19:27 UTC
Buddhism teaches that the concept of self is only an illusion, but then it also teaches that we each have a unique soul which remains intact through countless reincarnations. How does it reconcile these seeminingly disparate notions?
24 answers:
anonymous
2007-03-29 06:25:00 UTC
Nobody remembers their previous lives so the whole question is really all hypothetical. Even if you spend the rest of your life reconciling these two disparate notions, it won't get you any closer to knowing whether to turning left or right at the end of the block to get to the shopping mall.
Gaz
2007-03-29 15:52:18 UTC
Anger Eating Demon has explained it correctly, I bow to his wisdom as I do with Sorrowful W, a very good scripture quote by the way although it needs explaining to some here as they lack the background, forgive me a small criticism.



Buddhists do not believe in Reincarnation, this misconception is often misquoted as such. Buddhists believe in the Cycle of Life which includes Samsara or Rebirth as a Consequence of Karma and clinging to self.



In Buddhism there is no eternal soul yet there is Rebirth of something...what is it then that is Reborn, this is where the misconception arises. The term Rebirth is a term which some misinterpret as a Renewed Life, this is an incorrect view.The term actually represents a completely new and seperate Life, rather than a simple continuing of the previous Life.



There is however a link to all previous Lives, that link is Karma.



A life form is a conglomerate of what are termed Aggregates. This means simply that we are made up of parts called Skandhas. At the onset of death, these Skandhas are dissolved, the link with Karma remains and depending on this link and the strongly held ties to Life of the previous Life Form, a new Life Form is built if you will of the various Skandhas to form a completely new Life Form and a birth occurs. The Skandhas are formed in different measure than that of the previous Life Form determined by Karma and a Life begins anew.



The Lord Buddha explained that the Skandhas dissolve and are reformed due to Karma, if we were to attain enlightenment then we would be beyond Rebirth and Samsara. What then survives to be beyond Samsara...he was asked...he replied that it was unable to be described as a thing of our understanding a thing to be such...it just is, it isn't us but a thing which represents us.



To be released from the endless cycle, a Life Form, "us", must release our "self", thereby releasing the link to Karma. In doing so we also release Karma and its effects and Consequence thereby releasing the Karmic effects leading to a New Birth.



The Second Noble Truth explains "self" in detail and its teaching very important in a full understanding of the "why" of suffering and the reasons for Samsara and subsequent Rebirth..a term I mislike...I prefer New Birth....



I hope I've explained this very difficult concept for you. Its very nature is very difficult to explain to folks as the terms can themselves be very complicated and misinterpreted. its a tough one to answer for this alone.



Peace from a Buddhist...
sista!
2007-03-29 14:43:17 UTC
reincarnation is not a buddhist idea, it is a hindu idea. buddhism believes in rebirth.



Buddhist do not believe in an eternal soul. It is the mind-stream, not the soul, which goes through rebirth and cycles in existence. The mind-stream is ever-changing though, like the Ganges River.



****

editted:

You might consider the following. Your past actions in this and previous lives have created your current conditions, all the pleasant and the unpleasant. Somehow, somewhere, sometime you (and your current enemies) had a role in the creation of this current situation. Also, the "enemy" is indispensable for your progress on the path, because it is through them that you learn patience, love, compassion etc... Try to let go of pride and revenge and instead focus on concern to mend the situation, regardless of who is technically "correct". Furthermore, it is said that we should honor other sentient beings as we do the Buddha because both are required for us to attain enlightenment.



Karma ripens according to natural law. I think it quite possible that once the life of a 'lower animal' (keeping in mind that we are animals too) has been exhausted, then a strong positive intent from the past may very well manifest in a higher rebirth.



This is why practices purification and accumulation are so strongly emphasized. We are trying to become Buddhas.....getting rid of everything negative and developing everything positive.
shrill alarmist, I'm sure
2007-03-29 17:38:30 UTC
You should look at cyclic existence as mental continuum, or moment to moment existence until you ascertain a more firm understanding of karma, or actions and their result. Also, the idea of selflessness has to do with the Prajnaparamita which is based on the foundation of the Four Noble Truths. True suffering caused by true origins, true cessation caused by true path(way minds) - the true origin of these sufferings is karma (or actions and afflictions) and karma is best understood by a thorough understanding of The Twelve Links which are key to the understanding of the lack of true establishment which alleviates suffering and further, The Most Precious Teacher did not teach concepts, in fact, one could find that it is conceptuality that propels us into the ocean of rebirth time and again. These mistaken views create cyclic existence, whereas the opponent to the mistaken views are the wisdom realizing the lack of intrinsic existence of phenomena - or the selflessness of persons and phenomena. Not non-existence of self. That is nihilism. Not ultimate existence of self. That is eternalism. Stick somewhere close to the Middle Way. You could also investigate the subject atman. Find a Teacher. He or she can deepen your understanding and appreciation of these very vast and profound tenets and topics and definitely eliminate much more confusion then I am able to do with my terribly ignorant explanation.
Keith T
2007-04-06 02:42:58 UTC
READ HERE!!!!

VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!



You can cut to the chase and begin experiencing the benefits of Buddhism through chanting of the mantra of Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism, "nam myoho renge kyo." No study of dogma or history is required. That can come later. By practicing recitation of this mantra you can get all the benefits you have seen attributed to other meditation techniques, in a quick and direct way. Pursue it on the net. There are sites where you can hear the chant. And read Andrea Kovacs' story in the book "Visible Light," by Michael Lezy (New York Times Books).
Shinkirou Hasukage
2007-03-29 13:26:19 UTC
The self exists, but it is just a consequence of society, we are not born with it. Calling it an illusion is not accurate. This "self" actually causes us to be reborn by tying us into the samsara, and once we destroy the self then we cease to be reborn. Our "soul" does not remain intact, it is stripped bare during the bardo, until only our most basic emotions remain...



Rebirth is like when a plant scatters its seeds, the plant dies, but in a way it survives too...



And if you don't buy reincarnation, that is fine! Buddha said:



"Believe nothing

No matter who said it

Even if I have said it

Unless it agrees with your own reason

And your own common sense"
anonymous
2007-03-29 13:35:22 UTC
It's complicated. Buddhism teaches that the actions taken by a given self set in motion reactions that lead to rebirth, but the self that is reborn bears the same sort of relation to the previous self as the flame of a candle that has been lighted by another candle bears to the original flame. In other words connected with and a consequence of, but not identical to. Therefore, the self is a product of action leading to karma. To stop acting is to stop creating karma, thus obviating the need for a self. Understand? Neither do I, completely.
Erebus
2007-04-03 09:58:43 UTC
You seem a little confused about which religion your talking about but the Buddha also explains that there is no self but a collection of several components (only one physical) in continual flux, these components are always beginning changing and ending. In Buddhism you technically die thousands of times each minute but in reference to the death you are talking off it is not the cessation of all the components, only the body. The other components grasp on to the most recent memories, desiring the continuation of existence, supposedly good thoughts in your last moments means heaven and bad thoughts hell (with a still mind like that of an Ahrahat leading to the cessation of becoming, Paranibbanna)
holyfire
2007-03-29 19:39:05 UTC
Life is an illusion since it is fated from the beginning to the end. Flesh body controlled by soul. Soul commit since by letting the body do it. When we die, body will decade but soul will be reincarnated into a new flesh body. The suffering cycle is: born - grow up - old - sick - die - reborn. The cycle will never end and we fated to suffer in this cycle - that is why life is illusion. Buddhism's main goal is to help people escape from this cycle to end all suffering. Your version of Buddhism is Mahayana, 1 of 3 main branches.
DiesixDie
2007-03-29 13:25:59 UTC
Not really. If you look at the process of reincarnation as it would have to exist, it's obvious that the part of your identity you think of as your "self" doesn't survive the reincarnation process. If it did, you'd remember all of your previous lives.



Since the essence of your identity in this life won't be passing into the next, it's obviously cosmically unimportant. What passes on are your spirit's essential qualities, rather then ego based life memories, so a belief in reincarnation and at the same time a belief in the relative triviality of the "self" is entirely logically consistent.
Thomas
2007-04-03 22:46:10 UTC
Encourage you to start out with the concept of Mindfulness.



`

http://dharma.ncf.ca/introduction/instru...



The first site is great; but the site below, is most excellent, providing the entire Book [not just chapter 13/as what the site above provides], for FREE: A How To - Manuel on Mindfulness Meditation. It is quite excellent:



http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/mind...



Mindfulness Meditation IS The MOST Excellent Form of Meditation a person can learn. There are so many, many benefits from the daily practice of Mindfulness Meditation. Encourage you to read this book, daily practicing mindfulness meditation as a major part of your life.

Your never turn back, with any regrets, as you daily continue with mindfulness meditation, and walking mindfully moment by moment in daily life.





`
anonymous
2007-03-29 16:24:50 UTC
I'm afraid you have it wrong- Buddhists do not believe in a unique 'soul' in the traditional way. When your body dies, everything about you dies; thoughts, opinions, memories, aside from the clear consciousness from which we all come. This is the highest level of mind- the mind without opinions, thoughts, delusions, etc, etc.. It doesn't 'think' of itself as being a part of 'you', nor does it have misconceptions of being a part of 'self'.. This consciousness is not separate from other peoples clear consciousness, it is beyond separation and attachment, we are all linked together by it (In theist terms, this pure, almost perfect nature would most likely be known as 'God'). It regulates karma, and contains our own buddha-nature. As it is in a constant state of change, we never remain the same, we are different in each lifetime, yet we are still bound by our karma. As for remaining intact, if a chair is filed down to dust, is it still a chair?
anonymous
2007-03-29 13:58:58 UTC
The illusory concept of self is there to demonstrate that everything comes from the same universal energy, and that your "soul" came from that energy. You gain life experience, and when you die those collective experiences go back into the universe, leaving your consciousness behind.



So in a way, everything that you had become turns into another being, but your individual knowledge of your previous life is gone. At least according to Nichiren Buddhism.



I like the concept, but it's not enough to swing me out of agnosticism.
Anger eating demon
2007-03-29 13:55:16 UTC
What you have described is not Buddhism but Hinduism.

I would lke to paste the answer from Seal(GAVE A VERY GOOD ANSWER TO A SIMILAR QUESTION).



Reincarnation, literally "to be made flesh again", is a doctrine or mystical belief that some essential part of a living being (in some variations only human beings) survives death to be reborn in a new body. This essential part is often referred to as the Spirit or Soul, the 'Higher or True Self', 'Divine Spark', 'I' or the 'Ego' (not to be confused with the ego as defined by psychology). According to such beliefs, a new personality is developed during each life in the physical world, but some part of the being remains constantly present throughout these successive lives as well.



Belief in reincarnation is an ancient phenomenon. This doctrine is a central tenet within the majority of Indian religious traditions, such as Hinduism (including Yoga, Vaishnavism, and Shaivism), Jainism, and Sikhism. The idea was also entertained by some Ancient Greek philosophers. Many modern Pagans also believe in reincarnation as do some New Age movements, along with followers of Spiritism, practitioners of certain African traditions, and students of esoteric philosophies.



The Buddhist concept of Rebirth although often referred to as reincarnation differs significantly from the Hindu-based traditions and New Age movements in that the "self" (or soul) does not reincarnate.





Rebirth in Buddhism is the doctrine that the consciousness of a person (as conventionally regarded), upon the death or dissolution of the aggregates (skandhas) which make up that person, becomes one of the contributing causes for the arising of a new group of skandhas which may again be conventionally considered a person or individual. The consciousness arising in the new person is neither identical to, nor different from, the old consciousness, but forms part of a causal continuum or stream with it. The basic cause for this persistent re-arising of personality is the abiding of consciousness in avidya (ignorance); when ignorance is uprooted, rebirth ceases.



Although the cessation of a life is not in itself a sufficient condition for the inception of a new life (since arhats, pratyekabuddhas and buddhas pass away without rebirth), the supporting conditions for a new birth are almost always present. From an external perspective, each life appears as a link in a beginningless sequence of lives, varying in length and in quality.



In traditional Buddhist cosmology, these lives can be in any of a large number of states of being, including those of humans, any kind of animal, and several types of supernatural being (see Six realms). The type of rebirth that arises at the end of one life is conditioned by the karmas (actions of body, speech and mind) of the previous life; good karmas will yield a happier rebirth, bad karmas will produce one which is more unhappy.



In the traditional Buddhist languages of Sanskrit and Pāli, there is no word corresponding exactly to the English "rebirth". A rebirth, that is, the state one is born into, is referred to as jāti, i.e. simply "birth", also referring to the process of being born or coming into the world in any way. The entire process of change from one life to the next is called punarbhava (Sanskrit) or punabbhava (Pāli), literally "becoming again"; it is also known simply as bhava, i.e. "becoming". The process seen from a universal perspective, encompassing all living beings, is called saṃsāra.



From an interior perspective, a person who remembers or imagines a past life is likely to think of it as representing a continuity of existence between lifespans, i.e., that the same person (however defined) was formerly one person (with a certain name and body) and is now a different person (with another name and body). This perspective is objectionable from the point of view of Buddhist philosophy on two counts. First, because it seems to postulate an enduring, self-existing entity that exists separate from the elements of mind and body, contrary to the Buddhist philosophical position of anātman. Second, because it overlooks the characterization of this process as one of constant change, both within and between lives, in which the newly-arising life is conditioned by but in no respect identical to the predecedent life.



Nonetheless, the Buddha is represented using language reflecting the interior perspective in stories about his past lives in both jātakas and sūtras. For instance, "At that time I was the Brahmin, the Great Steward..." (Mahāgovinda-sutta, DN.19) or "Six times, Ānanda, I recall discarding the body in this place, and at the seventh time I discarded it as a wheel-turning monarch..." (Mahāsudassana-sutta, DN.17). This can be regarded as a concession to the needs of conventional speech.
Sorrowful W
2007-03-29 13:25:11 UTC
You have misunderstood. The popular notion of reincarnation is a misiniterpretation of a more subtle ancient doctrine. Buddha will clarify for you now:



Said the Blessed One:

"O Brahman, thou art religious and earnest.

Thou art seriously concerned about thy soul.

Yet is thy work in vain because thou art lacking

in the one thing that is needful. [8]



"There is rebirth of character,

but no transmigration of a self.

Thy thought-forms reappear,

but there is no egoentity transferred.

The stanza uttered by a teacher

is reborn in the scholar who repeats the words. [9]



"Only through ignorance and delusion do men indulge in the dream

that their souls are separate and self-existent entities. [10]



"Thy heart, O Brahman, is cleaving still to self;

thou art anxious about heaven

but thou seekest the pleasures of self in heaven,

and thus thou canst not see the bliss of truth

and the immortality of truth. [11]



"Verily I say unto thee:

The Blessed One has not come to teach death, but to teach life,

and thou discernest not the nature of living and dying. [12]



"This body will be dissolved

and no amount of sacrifice will save it.

Therefore, seek thou the life that is of the mind.

Where self is, truth cannot be;

yet when truth comes, self will disappear.

Therefore, let thy mind rest in the truth;

propagate the truth, put thy whole will in it, and let it spread.

In the truth thou shalt live for ever. [13]



"Self is death and truth is life.

The cleaving to self is a perpetual dying,

while moving in the truth

is partaking of Nirvana

which is life everlasting."



Vedanta and original Buddhism are the SAME, people.
Sahil C
2007-03-29 13:49:12 UTC
you are linking soul to the "self", how do you know that your soul is the self that buddhism teaches is an illusion? you dont. according to indian scripts. the soul is just a force that keeps you alive, it is the true you, the self if an illusion that is created by your body, to understand you. see the difference!
Silverwing6700
2007-03-29 13:30:35 UTC
No, not in the least. The whole point of reincarnating is to perfect the soul so that the soul can transend the material plane and reunite with the "One" (i.e. reach the state of Nirvana) You can't do that unless you have a seperate soul.
manna eater
2007-03-29 13:23:40 UTC
The soul and the self are both illusions, but the soul is no more or no less illusional than the self. The soul "seems" to stay intact and "seems" to reincarnate, just as it "seems" that "you" exist as a real being.
purplebutterflyrain
2007-04-05 00:45:34 UTC
Buddhism is a false god made up by man! It will not get you to Heaven only Through Jesus Christ will you enter heaven
r_govardhanam
2007-03-29 13:27:35 UTC
Manna... answered before me?.



Sorrowful...let buddha speak through you.
anonymous
2007-03-29 13:24:39 UTC
Welcomre to yet another talented individual, able to read a book from cover to cover and not understand a single word.............
anonymous
2007-03-29 13:22:02 UTC
no, if u eat buddist delight tonite, u'll make it up those 99 steps to shing tao beer...
Invisible_Flags
2007-03-29 13:22:37 UTC
are you familiar with the pearl and the dragon?
anonymous
2007-03-29 13:34:37 UTC
Don't think too hard. Your dick will fall off.


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