Are most Messianic Jews in the United States Ashkenazi or Sephardic?

Question

I was wondering particularly about the style of Hebrew used while davening---if someone grows up using Ashkenaz pronunciation prior to coming to faith in Jesus, what is the likelihood of him winding up in a Messianic synagogue that favors Sephardic pronunciation, or vice versa? Is it ever a problem if the parents learned to daven one way, and the chidren in the Messianic synagogue's Hebrew day school program are taught a different pronunciation? What about older Jews who are used to one tradition or another? I've never read any commentary on this, and I would like to hear from Messianic Jews who have dealt with this issue.

Answer 1

Ashkenazi. Sephardic Jews came from Spain. Ashkenazi Jews came from several different areas in Europe. But a lot of time, trying to find out information is stimulating your mind and not your spirit. Please Read:



Ashkenazi Jews, also known as Ashkenazic Jews or Ashkenazim (Hebrew: אַשְׁכֲּנָזִים‎, pronounced [ˌaʃkəˈnazim], singular: [ˌaʃkəˈnazi]; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנָז, Yehudei Ashkenaz, "the Jews of Ashkenaz"), are the Jews descended from the medieval Jewish communities along the Rhine in Germany from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north. Ashkenaz is the medieval Hebrew name for this region and thus for Germany. Thus, Ashkenazim or Ashkenazi Jews are literally "German Jews." Later, Jews from Western and Central Europe came to be called "Ashkenaz" because the main centers of Jewish learning were located in Germany. (See Usage of the name for the term's etymology.) Ashkenaz is also a Japhetic patriarch in the Table of Nations (Genesis 10).



Many Ashkenazi Jews later migrated, largely eastward, forming communities in non German-speaking areas, including Hungary, Poland, Belarus, Lithuania, Russia, Ukraine, Eastern Europe, and elsewhere between the 11th and 19th centuries. With them, they took and diversified Yiddish, a basically Germanic language with Hebrew influence (see Jewish language). It had developed in medieval times as the lingua franca among Ashkenazi Jews. The Jewish communities of three cities along the Rhine: Speyer, Worms and Mainz, created the SHUM league (SHUM after the first Hebrew letters of Spira, Warmatia and Magentza). The SHUM-cities are considered the cradle of the distinct Ashkenazi culture and liturgy.



Although in the 11th century, they comprised only 3 percent of the world's Jewish population, at their peak in 1931, Ashkenazi Jews accounted for 92 percent of the world's Jews. Today they make up approximately 80 percent of Jews worldwide.[5] Most Jewish communities with extended histories in Europe are Ashkenazim, with the exception of those associated with the Mediterranean region. The majority of the Jews who migrated from Europe to other continents in the past two centuries are Ashkenazim, Eastern Ashkenazim in particular. This is especially true in the United States, where most of the 5.3 million American Jewish population[6] is Ashkenazi, representing the world's single largest concentration of Ashkenazim.



Personally, although I'm a Messianic Jew I don't go to a Messianic Synagouge because I feel the body of Christ (Messiah) is already divided up into too many denominations already. Messianic Judaism to me is just another denomination.

Answer 2

Sephardic Pronunciation

Answer 3

Something like 80% of Jews in the U.S. are Ashkenazic, so presumably something like 80% of those who leave Judaism for Christianity (in any form, including 'Messianic') will likely be Ashkenazic as well. I suppose if they'd had a strong enough background in Judaism they'd notice the differences in pronunciation.



But the 'Messianics' tend to convert Jews who don't know all that much about Judaism, so it's quite possible that most of them don't know enough to notice. Likewise the vast majority of 'Messianic' congregants who have never been Jewish at all.

Answer 4

Boy does this not make sense. Early Christianity developed long before Judasim split culturally (not religiously) into Ashkenazki & Sephardic & Mizrahi by geographic area. It effects foods, habits & pronouncation but not much religiously at all by anyone's standards.



Messanics are Christians who are Judazing, ie adding a few Jewish rituals to their purely Christian theology,... which merely goes back to what NT claims some early, early Christians were doing... So a later split in Judaism has no relevance. Also NT has no relevance to Judaism whatsoever.



Furthermore, the reason Messanics added Jewish rituals according to their OWN conferences in the 1960'-70s was to more easily "look" Jewish in order to trick Jews into converting to Christianity so the 2nd coming could happen. Less than 2% of Messanics were ever Jewish according to their own records.

http://www.jew4judaism.org

http://www.outreachjudaism.org

http://www.jewfaq.org



================

On important correction:



Non-Orthodox Jews are Jews according to Judaism. Messanics are not in any way Jewish according to Judaism. The asker's comments are grounded in his disrespect for Jewish beliefs, not in any real facts.



================



There is a special situation in Yahoo Answers. It appears there is 1 person who claims to be Messanic who takes time to create many, many accounts & to answer questions. The Jewish folks here have observed this. In my view it's not worth taking this person as representing Messanics & they certainly aren't Jewish, & it's just an artifact of internet-land. This question & many answers to it will reflect this problem.

Answer 5

No 'issue':



Sephardi Messianics are called CATHOLIC and go to MASS.



Ashkenazi Messianics are called PROTESTANT and go to CHURCH.



Have a nice day.



Edit:

As someone who is ACTUALLY Jewish, your question is CONTRIVED and NONSENSICAL (confusing מבטא or הגוי with נוסח) and it is very clear that you have NO clue as to what you are talking about. Neither will any Messianic have any clue as to what you are talking about, because there is no Sephardi or Ashkenazi tradition in XTIANITY.



Answer to Question:



Hebrew is Hebrew. Use the right סידור.



You're welcome.



Michael:

The Rambam is turning completely over because of this question.



Edit:

Uh-huh... Sure. Nonsense is pretending you are familiar with the geographic nuances of a language you obviously don't UNDERSTAND. Contrived is pretending this question is a sincere request for information and not another dig, as if any Jews even HALFWAY knowledgeable of tradition would be caught DEAD near a messianic church..... My comment to Michael is a direct response to what he wrote, and, by the way, לשון הקודש is NOT gibberish. And as for you referring to anyone as stupid: כי כקול הסירים תחת הסיר כן שחק הכסיל וגם־זה הבל



Note to reader:

The reason that no messianic even remotely addresses this question, is because there is NO מסורה in messianic churches---except for maybe how xmas carols are sung.



Why? Because MOST were NEVER Jewish; MOST were not BORN or RAISED Jewish, and the few who were---threw away their spiritual link to Abraham Isaac and Jacob to worship a psuedo-god/ imposter.



Glad to have cleared things up.



Edit:

(yawn)

Answer 6

Since ALL "messianic jews" EVERYWHERE in the world are not Jewish- they cannot belong to any Jewish group! "messianic jews' are CHRISTIANS, and merely members if a Christian missionary cult that uses lies, deception and misrepresentation to try and claim they are Jewish so they can evangelise to the uneducated in the Jewish community



For a full discussion of "messianic jews" and the fallacious arguments they use to try and claim they are Jewish see: http://messianicsexposed.com/2010/07/01/tactic-the-use-of-racist-doctrines-to-establish-jewishness/



I would post the article here but it is too long.



edit: I thank Troy for showing his hatred of Judaism so openly-no wonder he supports the Christian missionaries in "messianic judaism"! Then again, its not like its the first time he has displayed his hatred of Judaism- in the past he has made the comment that it is ok to hate Judaism!

Answer 7

Messianic Jews are Christians,they are NOT JEWS

Answer 8

Most of them are neither.. Most claiming to be "messianic jews" are not even Jews, and those who are, follow none of the traditions, since both traditions follow Torah, which tells Jews not to follow other religions..

Answer 9

I'd say sepharic purely on the basis that Sean Paul is a sephardi Jew and he seems pretty mainstream.



Kick my butt with a thousand TDs if I'm being an ignoramus.



PS - I know he's not American.



...

Answer 10

EDIT: *Sigh*. What is it about Fundamentalists of any religion that make it impossible for them to admit it when they are wrong, instead of making silly excuses and attacking others? Jesus had things to say about confession, too...



First--I have never seen Allon resort to baseless personal attacks. Yes, he defends questions that misrepresent Jews and Judaism, as Jews have a right to do. He defends Jews against people who misrepresent themselves AS Jews so that they can convert them to Christianity misrepresented as Judaism, which is also morally permissible. He uses good evidence from the Tanakh when he does so, and he has never made an unprovoked attack. I saw nothing in his answer that was an attack, and you spewed that entire rant at him.



Second--You didn't attack Allon, you attacked an entire group of people. You attacked the Jews, and denigrated our religion, apparently on some assumption that it should only do things that meet your approval. Being Jewish, yes I do 'take umbrage' to that, and yes, I will point out that this reveals much about Messianic "Judaism" as a movement and those who support it, in as far as attitudes to actual Jews are concerned.



Third--how many actual Sephardis do you know? How many Sephardi Messianics do you know? I wouldn't doubt that there are many who have some Sephardic ancestry, are Catholic, and claim this makes them "Messianic". Many Messianics on here claim to be Catholic. Anyhow--any Messianic "Synagogue" is actually a Church, so the point is moot...that is something that I KNOW. And, piddling away with a 'verb' many languages don't even bother to use in order to pretend it changes an insult makes you look like a child.



Fourth--I am not blinded to the faults of my friends. I've confronted friends & contacts when I thought they had been off; I've been confronted by friends & contacts when I think that they are off. It's a typical Fundamentalist (of any religion) argument to assume that simply because someone pointed out a fault--it must be because something is wrong with *them.* Even if it were true--it's a piece of lint in my eye. You have a log of hate in yours. Jesus had things to say about that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re your comment to Allon. It's always good to know how much people who support Messis respect actual Jews. Sooner or later, the Messianic Fundamentalist agenda always comes out---Jews have a disgusting religion, and they are too stupid to figure that out on their own...so we have to stoop to any ethical, moral, or civil low in order to save them from themselves.



I have never seen Allonyoav 'heap condemnation' on any member here---Jewish or otherwise. You, however, have nothing but contempt for the Jewish religion & culture that you somehow feel that you have the priveledge of redefining, and have spent substantial space chewing Allonyoav for the religion that he has chosen. I only mention this because you brought up glass houses, and since you (ostensably) worship a guy who had some choice words for hypocrites....



As for your words to Challah--you did, indeed, call her 'stupid'...you are simply backpedling now, since the 'edit' details on questions do not allow one to erase what they said, the way that Messis tend to write derogatory comments towards Jews, then erase them. If you are going to say something rude to the girl, at least have the guts to own up to it, instead of piddling about copulas like a kindergartener trying to avoid a time-out. Telling her that she shouldn't 'be stupid' implies a believe that she is stupid, and would continue to be so unless she decided to think like you do...and since, at least to adults, insults don't make arguments...At any rate, she is right when she says that most Messianic Jews are Prodestants who come from no Jewish heritage at all. Even Christian sources that are sympathetic to the movement would back her up.



Most 'Messianic Jews' aren't Ashkenazi or Sephardi, Mizrahi, Kaifeng, Beta Israeli, or any other term used to denotate a specific Jewish culture, for a very simple reason. Those terms are reserved to refer to people who have a particular history and culture. Askenazis come from the Jewish communities from Europe, and Sephardis are descended from those who were expelled from the Iberian penninsula thanks to people who held theologies similiar to yours & Messis. Someone who is not from that culture could not *will* him/herself into it more than I could will myself into Han culture.



Even Christian sources that are sympathetic to that disgusting movement, will concede that 80% of "Messianic Jews" have no connection to the Jewish people--no family, no heritage, no faith. There is even a J4J activist on record admitting that 80-90% of Messianic "Jews" are Christians who just wanted to feel "Jewish." People who have absolutely no Ashkenazi background are no more Ashkenazi than they are Bantu.

Answer 11

Does it matter?



They are NOT Jews...

אנשים אשר מבצעים עבודה זרה אינם יכולים להיות יהודי, כי אמר הרמב"ם - הם לא יהודים!

Is that better?

Answer 12

"Messianic Jews" are **not** Jewish.



A Jew who accepts Christianity might call himself a “Jewish Christian,”

but he is no longer a Jew[1]. He can no longer even be counted as part of a

Jewish congregation[2].

Conversion to another faith is an act of religious treason in Judaism. It is one of

the worst possible sins that a Jew can ever commit. Along with murder and

incest, it is one of the three cardinal sins which may not be violated even

under pain of death. [3] It’s a big deal.

Rabbi Moses Isserles demanded a formal conversion back to Judaism for those who converted out of Judaism but who then wanted to return to Judaism. (One who practices idolatry denies the whole of the Torah.)[4]

He demanded ritual immersion (mikveh) and repentance before a court of three (beit din). You will see this also in other Responsa literature: Radbaz, Responsa III, 415; Moses Isserles to Yoreh Deah 268.12; and Hoffman, Melamed Leho-il II, 84.

Maimonides himself wrote that if a Jew converted to Christianity, he or she was no longer a Jew (Yad, loc. cit. 2:5.). Also see Maimonides, Hilchot Mamrim Perek 3, Halacha 1-3, as well as in Maimonides's Mishnah Torah, Avodat Kochavim 2:5.





Note the following Biblical Passage:

I Kings 18:21. Elijah the prophet asked Jews who were beginning to slip into the worship of the idol, Baal, "How long will you go limping with two different opinions? If the God of the Jews is God, follow Him! but if Baal is God, then follow him!" Elijah told the Jews, one or the other, not both! You cannot believe in two opposite, mutually exclusive ideas simultaneously. Judaism and Christianity believe in opposite, mutually exclusive ideas, and you cannot be a Jew and a believer that Jesus was the Christ at the same time. We are supposed to prefer death over the practice of Christianity [5].

This is not to say apostate ex-Jews are not welcome back!

Rabbi Moses Isserles demanded a formal conversion back to Judaism for those who converted out of Judaism but who then wanted to return to Judaism. He demanded ritual immersion (mikveh) and repentance before a court of three (beit din). You will see this also in other Responsa literature: Radbaz, Responsa III, 415; Moses Isserles to Yoreh Deah 268.12; and Hoffman, Melamed Leho-il II, 84.

Indeed, the Tanakh says…

“As I live, says G-d, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but

that they turn from their way and live.” (Ezek. 33:11).

“When the wicked turns from his sin, and does what is lawful and

right, he shall live thereby.” (Ibid. 33:19).

“That every man shall return from his way, and I will forgive him.”

(Jer. 36:3)

“If they return to You, and confess Your Name, and pray ... then You

will hear in Heaven, and forgive their sin.” (1 Kings 8:33, 34)



Even a Jew who has embraced another faith is given another chance. He can still return to Judaism and be reaccepted by G-d. However, he must sever all ties with the faith he converted to (in this case, the Christian or “Messianic” faith).

Source(s):

1) Yad, loc. cit. 2:5.

2) Pri Megadim, Eshel Avraham 55:4.

3) Sanhedrin 74a.

4) Sifri on Num. 15:22 and Deut. 11:28; Yad, Avodas Kochavim 2:4. Cf. Horios 8a.

5) Tshuvos Rivash 4, 11, Tshuvos Rabbi Yosef ben Lev 1:15.

Harries, Richard (August 2003). "Should Christians Try to Convert Jews?". After the evil: Christianity and Judaism in the shadow of the Holocaust. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. pp. g. 119. LCCN 2003-273342. ISBN 0199263132. "Thirdly, there is Jews for Jesus or, more generally, Messianic Judaism. This is a movement of people often of Jewish background who have come to believe Jesus is the expected Jewish messiah.…They often have congregations independent of other churches and specifically target Jews for conversion to their form of Christianity."

• Kessler, Edward (2005). "Messianic Jews". in Edward Kessler and Neil Wenborn (eds.) (GoogleBooks). A dictionary of Jewish-Christian relations. Cambridge; New York: Cambridge University Press. pp. 292–293. LCCN 2005-012923. ISBN 9780521826921. OCLC 60340826. "From a mainstream Christian perspective Messianic Judaisms can also provoke hostility for misrepresenting Christianity."

• Harris-Shapiro, Carol (1999). "Studying the Messianic Jews" (GoogleBooks). Messianic Judaism: a rabbi’s journey through religious change in America. Boston, MA: Beacon Press. pp. g. 3. LCCN 98-54864. ISBN 0807010405. OCLC 45729039. "And while many evangelical Churches are openly supportive of Messianic Judaism, they treat it as an ethnic church squarely within evangelical Christianity, rather than as a separate entity."

Answer 13

Excellent question, Troy! My parents were from northern Europe (dad from Germany and mom from England). I always thought that meant my lineage was Ashkenazi, but some recent papers that were my father's turned out to be Sehpardi, so who knows. We do know, however, that Abba knows and there will ONLY be 12 gates into the New Jerusalem! That means NONE will be marked "Gentile"! All believers are grafted in and Abba knows which tribe they will belong to!



D1

Answer 14

They retain the allegiance they had before their "conversion"

I do not accept that by conversion to Christianity a person ceases to be a Jew .

Christians ( I understand ) were not to be considerd idol worshippers , nor were Muslims -

Idol worship is the only grounds for deprivation of Jewishness.

The earliest followers of Jesus retained their Jewish observances - it was only after the advent of Pauline Christianity that Christians were told to ignore Mosaic Law .

Were those who temporarily followed notorious false Messiahs deprived of their Jewish status ?

Answer 15

ashkenazi

Answer 16

Most who call themselves "Messianic Jews" are not apostate Jews from either group asked about. Their practices could not be called by any actual Jewish culture designation since they only appropriate from Judaism to attempt to redefine and negate it. Ashkenazi and Sephardi are descriptive of Jewish groups. The New Testament Hebrew Christians calling themselves "Messianic Jews" and hijacking the name of Judaism, also misapprorpriates many other things from the Jewish people, but that doesn't turn it's forbidden by Torah form of worship for Jews, into Judaism. Mark S, Shmuley, allonyoav, Cher, Challah Girl , angels and scaerdry's have answered this contrived and nonsensical trolling and his nasty false insults with objective facts about what Judaism is and is not and have clearly shown that there is NO honest way to call someone who worships in a manner forbidden by Torah, in a religion that contradicts Judaism directly, following a form OF Judaism. Live your faith of worship of Jesus as your god in peace, but please stop trying to create hatred of Jews to justify it.

It makes no difference what your opinion or my opinion on the matter is, the fact is that human sacrifice for sin or a divine manifestation in a human are considered blasphemy for the Jewish people according to the Torah (law) of Judaism.



There is *NO* "branch" of Judaism called "Messianic Judaism" Every movement of Judaism in the past 40 years since the appearance of these groups has been obligated to form official position statements to address the assults to the Jewish communities by their attempts to hijack Jewish identity and impose Christian dogma into it, and then misrepresent themselves to the community at large as Jews and a face of Judaism! Their "Messianic Jewish" missionary groups already have massive schisms within their

own ranks because their particular dogma depends upon which Protestant group/church is funding them and which Christian seminary their clergy posing as rabbis received their ministry's ordination from. It makes no diffrence how many millions of dollars a year are spent in evangelizing efforts with TV shows, tapes, etc..or how many new "Messianic synagogues" with preachers/pastors/ministers calling themselves Rabbi, the New Testament will never be Judaism and Torah compatible.



Not only within the Jews for Jesus..or even the former Hebrew Christian Alliance ( now called the Messianic Jewish Alliance in deceptive name) but other splinter groups who formed from them ..and left them...each claiming to be the

real Jews, each cherry picking which traditions, customs and practices of Judaism to mimic and impose avodah zarah ( forbidden forms of dolatrous worship) upon in clear violation of the very essence of the affirmation of faith expressed in Torah in the Shema. They pervet לשון הקודש to try to justify the claim that Jesus ( Yeshua, Yahoshua,Yashuah, etc) was a DIVINE manifestation of God in human form..directly contradicting the very essence of the affirmation of faith at Sinai. (not to mention all the other lengthy narratives explaning God is not a man, does not become human and the notion of incarnate deities is blaspehmy)

If Devil worshippers were to call themselves "completed Christians" I think it would be reasonably expected that Christians would not respect that. Jews can likewise never respect any attempt to lie about Judaism and Jews for the purpose of creating Jew hate and negating and replacing the Jewish people and Jewish religion with one that violates every aspect of God's eternal covenant with Israel. If a Muslim were to declare that acceptance of Mohammed and Quran were the only way one could be shown to be a follower of the real Christian faith, and that you weren’t a true Christian unless you abandoned former beliefs of Christianity and replaced them with doctrine from the Quran, it would likewise, evoke the world’s Christians to declare that as irrelevant to definition of Christianity at the very least!



Do you think that Christians would remain silent to topsy turvy charges of bigotry to the Christians for declaring that the Quran is irrelevant to Christianity?



Yet, here in Yahoo Answers when Jews declare an unalterable fact that has existed for two thousand years since the appearance of the replacement theology of the New Testament, that belief in doctrine of the New Testament is not Judaism, a fact that is not up for debate within Judaism at all, we are declared bigoted, and the worst of all, we are often demonized in extreme lies as PERSECUTING the people who are lying to call NT worship a form of Judasim!

It is not bigoted to define the boundaries of a religion according to it's laws.

I am in agreement with scaerdry's and believe that she has given this "question" the most detailed reason why it does not make sense as asked. Excellent answer there and Challah Girl's display of knowledge certainly was not "stupid".

The Interfaith Conference of Metropolitan Washington is an umbrella organization that includes Baha'í, Buddhist, Hindu, Jain, Mormon,Zoroastrians, Muslims, Jews, and church groups from the Roman Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran and Presbyterian churches.IFC's stated goal is "(1)to increase understanding, dialogue, and a sense of community among persons of different faiths, representing diverse races and cultures, and (2)to address issues of social and economic justice in defense of human dignity."

They created a statement in response to a resolution of the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the United States, calling on its members to redouble their efforts to evangelize Jews. Particularly singled out for criticism was the "Messianic Jewish" movement as promoting activities "harmful to the spirit of interreligious respect and tolerance." The conference denounced “deceptive proselytizing efforts”, though recognizing evangelism is an important tenet of Christian theology due to the Great Commission. The conference stated that when”deceptive proselytizing efforts” were practiced on "vulnerable populations" such as the young or the elderly, these efforts are "tantamount to coerced conversions."“

The Conference concluded with an official statement condemning the deceptive proselytization efforts of the “Messianic Movement“ (published inSummer, 1997 "Interfaith Connector" Vol. 8, No. 2) which stated:

“We condemn proselytizing efforts which delegitimize the faith

tradition of the person whose conversion is being sought. Such tactics go beyond the bounds of appropriate and ethically based religious outreach.

"Examples of such practices are those common among groups that have adopted the label of "Hebrew Christianity", "Messianic Judaism", or "Jews for Jesus".

"These groups specifically target Jews for conversion to their version of Christianity, making claim that in accepting Jesus as the savior/messiah, a Jews 'fulfills' his/her faith."

"Furthermore, by celebrating Jewish festivals, worshipping on the Jewish Shabbat, appropriating Jewish symbols, rituals and prayers in their churches, and, sometimes, even calling their leaders 'Rabbi', the seek to win over, by deception, many Jews who are sincerely looking for a path back to their ancestral heritage.”

"Deceptive proselytizing is practiced on the most vulnerable of populations - residents of hospitals and old aged homes, confused youth, college students away from home. These proselytizing techniques are tantamount to coerced conversions and should be condemned."

Answer 17

what issue?