Question:
A question for creationists?
Gruns Morelli
2010-02-11 14:12:09 UTC
How can you say evolution is wrong? There is such a large body of scientific evidence backing it up. I want a rational argument that creationism is right, not just saying that evolution doesn't explain some things. One rule: No using the bible as evidence.
Atheists stay out of this ;)
Fourteen answers:
Parslow
2010-02-11 14:16:46 UTC
My theory is that Creationists are actually just cyborgs, programmed by their creators (Kent Hovind and his "creation scientist" cronies) to repeat the exact same things over and over, and to promote AiG.com and other Creationist websites by endlessly proliferating hyperlinks to said sites.



edit~ Yeah, sure, let's read Signature in the Cell! Oh wait, before we do that, let's see what real scientists have to say about it!

"Jeffrey Shallit, a Computer Scientist and Mathematican, reviewed the Meyer's "significant misunderstandings of information theory." His review concluded: "Meyer's claims about information are incoherent in places and wildly wrong in others. The people who have endorsed this book, from Thomas Nagel to Philip Skell to J. Scott Turner, uncritically accepting Meyer's claims about information and not even hinting that he might be wrong, should be ashamed." "



And Darrel Falk, co-president of the BioLogos Foundation and a biology professor at Point Loma Nazarene University, has this to say:

"If the object of the book is to show that the Intelligent Design movement is a scientific movement, it has not succeeded. In fact, what it has succeeded in showing is that it is a popular movement grounded primarily in the hopes and dreams of those in philosophy, in religion, and especially those in the general public."



Oh, well then, maybe we shouldn't read this. It sounds like something you should throw in the garbage, shortly before lighting the garbage can on fire and dropping it into a canyon.



edit2

"Science could never explain the complexity of our universe. this is God's handiwork. Don't use the Bible? K, then you may not use science. How you like them apples?"

Well now, this is a fine example of stunning brilliance in the Y!A community, isn't it?



1. She wasn't asking you to explain the percieved complexity of the Universe. Learn the difference between the Universe and evolution.



2. This is a shameless God of the Gaps argument.



3. This user, by comparing her Bible to our science, demonstrates that she is unable to present a reputable argument when her crutch (scripture) is taken away, proving that she relies on the Bible for everything she believes about our origins.





edit3

Here's a fun challenge! Let's see if we can spot either a logical fallacy or scientific falsity in each of Mainworry's paragraphs!



Paragraph 1

- Logical fallacies > appeal to complexity, oversimplification, argument by uninformed opinion, argument ad nauseum.



- Just, just, just! This 'just' happened, that 'just' happened! I like that word! "Just". It can make big complex things that I'm afraid to learn about seem so easy!

For example: That wave function *just* collapsed. Or: That psilocybin fungus *just* made me trip out. The real process is way to complicated, so I'll *just* settle for just.



Paragraph 2

This just makes no sense.

"Evolution (nonsense), Abiogenesis (theory)"

So you're willing to admit that abiogenesis is atleast a theory, but when it comes to evolution *shudder* run and hide...



Paragraph 3

Logical fallacies - Ad hominem attacks, hasty generalization, red herring, argument by uninformed opinion, argument by fast talking.



- First of all, "atheism" is not a proper noun, so you don't capitalize the "a".

There's no real argument in here. It's just a rant about how much the user hates atheism. "Anti-logic". "Anti-reason". He holds such contempt towards atheism, he is actually willing to invent new words to express his distaste.

Now that takes commitment.

"Atheism hates something they claim is a fairy tale."

Whatever you say, Prof. Logic.



Paragraph 4

Logical fallacies- Bifurcation, argument by emotive language.

I disagree. Nuf' said.



Paragraph 5

No logical fallacies here, only scientific fallacies.



"Man starts from nothing."

No, but this argument does.



"He begins in helplessness, ignorance, and inexperience."

Helplessness? Only when compared to us. Ignorance? Only when compared to us. Inexperience? Only when compared to us.

I find it amusing how your describing primitive Man as a toddler.

In fact, our ancestors thrived in their environment.



"This principle is only seen in human affairs [goes on to describe products of human ingenuity, for some reason]"

We have witnessed evolution in motion in microorganisms, as well as in the fossil record.



"There is growth and development within man, but no passing, change, or evolution out from one into another."

So called macro-evolution takes place over tens of thousands of years. try again later.



Paragraph 6



Every single living organism you see around you is at its particular "stage" in evolution.



"For this theory or fallacy of evolution to be true there would be no God."

Bifurcation again. And terrible bifurcation at that. Evolution and God are not mutually exclusive.



"And that’s exactly what evolutionists believe and are trying to prove."

1. "Evolutionist" is not a real word.

2. The burden of proof is still on your back.

3. Not all "evolutionists" are atheists.



"The evolutionist bases his or her conclusions on human assumptions and reasoning, instead of on the documentary evidence of the manuscripts."

The Bible is not documentary evidence... that's circular logic, you schmuck.



Paragraph 7

Here we see bifurcation rear its ugly head yet AGAIN.

And notice this user doesn't actually state anything worthy of reading. He's essentially just letting us know that he is afraid of evolution, and will do whatever he can to avoid it.

To prove my point...

"Evolution's only mechanism mutation-natural selection, is totally, utterly, pathetically inadequate. Evolutionists’ dream of a natural process bringing things together into organized complexity. This takes great faith and imagination."



Paragraph 8

" The fossil record shows mostly stasis in a species for many millions of years; there is no evidence there for gradual change."

No sh*t, eh? Not every single thing that dies ends up fossilized. In fact, hardly anything does.



"Birds prove Natural Selection is naturally wrong."

... Ha ha?



"Species without a link proves Evolution is wrong."

Maybe that link isn't there because it evolved, sh*thead.



"Single cell complexity proves Evolution is wrong."

And how complex is your god, again?



"Human egg and sperm proves Evolution is wrong."

Wat



"DNA error checking proves Evolution is wrong."

Chromosome mapping proves evolution is right, dumb*ss.



"Origin of matter and stars proves Evolution is wrong."

Matter and stars have nothing to do with evolution...



"The theory of evolution is rubbish and to perpetuate it is fraud. Most Evolutionists’ reject God or fear connecting God with science. This is truly sad."

The only thing here that is truly sad, is you.

Please, refrain from having children.





edit4

Kdanley didn't give any evidence. He just used the layers of the Earth as proof for a flood, even though this argument has been refuted a million times already.

http://talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH550.html



edit5

Kibber is using arguments that we've seen a million times already.

"So seeing as how you can never be exactly created again, why would you believe in a Theory that is based only on guess."

Even if the theory of evolution were only a guess, this comment would still make absolutely no sense, and proves that Kibber doesn't understand the basic concepts of evolution.

Then he goes on to use the appeal to complexity fallacy and Pascal's Wager.



edit 6

john is using an argument from incredulity in his first paragraph. Others might be able to find a natural explanation; in many cases, they already have. Nobody knows everything, so it is unreasonable to conclude that something is impossible just because you do not know it.



His second argument is falacious as well. He assumes that the population growth rate was always constant, which is a false assumption. Wars and plagues would have caused populations to drop from time to time. In particular, population sizes before agriculture would have been severely limited and would have had an average population growth of zero for any number of years



For john's last argument, I visited talkorigins and found his claim.

http://talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB621.html

1.The "mitochondrial Eve," to which this claim refers, is the most recent common female ancestor, not the original female ancestor. There would have been other humans living earlier and at the same time. The mtDNA lineages of other women contemporary with her eventually died out. Mitochondrial Eve was merely the youngest common ancestor of all today's mtDNA. She may not even have been human.



2.The same principles find that the most recent human male common ancestor ("Y-chromosome Adam") lived an estimated 84,000 years after the "mitochondrial Eve" and also came from Africa (Hawkes 2000; Underhill et al. 2000; Yuehai et al. 2001).



3.The results assume negligible paternal inheritance of mitochondrial DNA, but that assumption has been called into question. Male mtDNA resides in the tail of the sperm; the tail usually does not enter the egg that the sperm fertilizes, but rarely a little bit does. It is also possible that there is some recombination of mtDNA between lineages, which would also affect the results (Awadalla et al. 1999; Eyre-Walker et al. 1999). But these challenges have themselves been questioned (Kivisild
johninjc
2010-02-11 14:52:04 UTC
I will give you a couple. First we as humans can comprehend how the universe works. We can study the laws that govern our universe, such as the gravity, the atomic weight of an atom, and many more. There is no evolutionary reason for this to happen. No other species on the planet can do that so it can not be argued that there is a needed step for evolution. How can mathematics, a process created in the mind of man, be how we explain many things in the universe? That is something really deep to think about, but because the neurons that are firing inside our brain can comprehend how gravity and thermodynamics work shows that it is not by accident.



And do some research on population, what the evolutionary theory teaches us that man evolved between 100,000 and 200,000 years ago. So the claim is that for 95,000 to 195,000 that it took evolution of man to be able to write. The oldest writings we have are around 5500 years old. But since that time in the last 5000 years that evolution has made us so great that we can send a man to the moon, and send space ships thought the milky way. That's a little off subject but look up population, we know that 2000 years ago there was about 250 million people on the planet, in just 2000 years we now have almost 7 billion people on the planet, now take that growth rate backwards and you will see that there is no way that people have lived that long.



And the all important we could not have all come from 2 people because that would be insest. Yet the DNA evidence shows that we all come from one man and one woman. If evolution were true this would be against the laws of probability, if creation is true this is exactly what you would expect.
Kibber
2010-02-11 14:33:43 UTC
You have billions of atoms in your system that have billiions on protons in them. You are Human. There will never ever be another you. When you die your atoms will become something else. So seeing as how you can never be exactly created again, why would you believe in a Theory that is based only on guess. Even exact twins are genetically different when it boils down to the atoms and protons they are made with. Perhaps a skyscraper was really a small building in the beginning and it evolved into a tall building. Will archeologists in the future that have no proof of how the building was created argue about how it evolved on its own or did someone create it? I really don't think we have that much time before the real answer to your question gets here, but it is food for thought. I guess the real question is who stands to lose more, if creationists are wrong?
kdanley
2010-02-11 14:30:04 UTC
Evidence is evidence. It cannot, by definition, be wrong. However, our interpretation of that evidence can be and often is wrong.



The Bible says that there was a world-wide flood in the days of Noah. If that were true there would be many signs of catastrophe all over the earth. There would be billions of fossils of dead animals and plants.



Moving water automatically sorts sediment into layers. If the Biblical Flood really happened, there would be layers all over the earth.



I could give much more evidence, but this is enough for now. It is ridiculous to ask Christians to not use the Bible. It would be like asking you to not use textbooks.
HolyTurtleOfDoom
2010-02-11 14:17:12 UTC
Josh: Capital letter at the start of a sentence. Laughing at your own joke is pretty lame. "lol" is a term mostly used by teenages. Not even adressing the question and resoting to crude humour.



I think someone is still at school or needs to go back.
2010-02-11 14:31:03 UTC
for one thing a human cannot breed with a monkey or ape, therefor man didnt come from one.........wrong DNA and genes.If man came from some other evolving creature....which one could possible be our ancesters? why isnt there some sort of inbetweener existing somewhere...a culture which would prove to be that missing link inbetween race....and beast



There is no explaination as to why we have white people and black people, asian people...chinese

i have never seen a white skinned breed of chimp.....nor a breed that has slanted eyes.....



....no answer as to why we are the only naturally balanced planet which supports life in its proper order....if we were such a well organized planet for evolution then there would be many more of us everywhere.....you would be able to see the natural growths of sea animals and chimps evolving into malike creatures.



animals breed by a.......... heat period.....whereby the male smells the scent of the female, and breeding is often times an act which is thought nothing of after the female has been bred.....

the scent is soon gone and breeding is not done thereafter....there is no LOVE involved

animals breed naturally from behind....man and woman naturally breed face to face in order for both to achieve sexual pleasure....



man and woman can breed anytime of the month and both parties can LOVE

altho the woman ovulates only once a month...it does not govern sexual behavior...



Monkeys have not yet been able to adapt to social life...work, play....study....family life...there are no monkeys with a PHD.....nor do they invent great things for society nor have they ever.



they are conscious of beauti.....nor do they or can they learn to drive cars.....they cannot stand by a chalk board and think thro the theory of their own existance....nor play out any mathematical exam...



man and woman are the highest achievment of intelgence....love..passions...art....inventions.....going to the moon.......science.....



I think this might be enough ....if you belive in evolution....your not giving it enough thought.....





jean
Erika
2016-11-06 04:31:42 UTC
the article delivers a referenced, evidenced thesis. you have presented an allure to Ridicule (i.e. a logical fallacy). Now all you will desire to do is present a rational rebuttal - so the considerate human beings can take part in the communicate. (yet I won't carry my breath).
2010-02-11 14:23:24 UTC
Energy and matter just happened. A perfect biosphere to support life just happened. Abundance of water and atmosphere just happened. Mystical nothing in the soup just happened. Species just happened 250,000 times in plant life. Species just happened over a million times in animal life. Intellect and memory just happened. Eyesight and all our senses just happened. The seed and reproduction just happened.



Men and women of the Sciences are going to tell us exactly “how” all this just happened. Hence the big bang theory, Evolution (nonsense), Abiogenesis (theory) and Anthropic principle (theory), what’s next?



For some reason, it seems, that what Atheism wants is not logic, reason, or open minded consideration, but just the opposite, anti-logic, anti-reason, and anti-common sense. Atheism hates something they claim is a fairy tale. It doesn't matter who dreams up this anti-logic and anti-reason. What matters are who or what kind of intelligence believes it? People don’t want a definition of Atheism they want to understand the intellect or lack thereof, that believes this nonsense.



The introduction to Genesis and to the whole Bible ascribes everything to the living God, creating, making, acting, moving, and speaking. There is no room for evolution without a flat denial of Divine revelation. One must be true the other false. All of God’s works are good, great, wondrous, and perfect.



Man starts from nothing. He begins in helplessness, ignorance, and inexperience. All his works, therefore, proceed on the principle of evolution. This principle is only seen in human affairs: from the hut to the palace; from the canoe to the ocean liner; from the spade to the plowshare to machines. But the birds build their nests today as at the beginning. There is growth and development within man, but no passing, change, or evolution out from one into another.



For this theory or fallacy of evolution to be true there would be evident stages of evolution today. You would be able to find species in many stages of evolution in nature right now. For this theory or fallacy of evolution to be true there would be no God. And that’s exactly what evolutionists believe and are trying to prove. The evolutionist bases his or her conclusions on human assumptions and reasoning, instead of on the documentary evidence of the manuscripts.



There are only two possibilities, every part of every living thing emerged by random chance, or intelligence designed them. Evolution's only mechanism mutation-natural selection, is totally, utterly, pathetically inadequate. Evolutionists’ dream of a natural process bringing things together into organized complexity. This takes great faith and imagination.



The fossil record shows mostly stasis in a species for many millions of years; there is no evidence there for gradual change. Birds prove Natural Selection is naturally wrong. Species without a link proves Evolution is wrong. Single cell complexity proves Evolution is wrong. Human egg and sperm proves Evolution is wrong. DNA error checking proves Evolution is wrong. Chaos from organization proves Evolution is wrong. Chromosome count proves Evolution is wrong. Origin of matter and stars proves Evolution is wrong.



The theory of evolution is rubbish and to perpetuate it is fraud. Most Evolutionists’ reject God or fear connecting God with science. This is truly sad.
abdullah
2010-02-11 14:24:29 UTC
Hello

GOD Create every thing in the world as they are and make every nations of human and animals and fish and insects .

if we said that evolution is true if you keep one glass for 100 year the next generation will find it as it is and they will not find it devolving to be other thing like steel or wood.

that what believe as muslim
PrettyLady
2010-02-11 14:18:57 UTC
Science could never explain the complexity of our universe. this is God's handiwork. Don't use the Bible? K, then you may not use science. How you like them apples?
gertystorrud
2010-02-11 14:16:34 UTC
I suggest 'you' climb out of your little 'influenced box' and read some books, 'if' you like to read: "Signature In The Cell", by Steven Meyer, and also, "The Real Face Of Atheism", by Ravi Zacharias. (I Dare you.) ;)
Cajunboy
2010-02-11 14:16:21 UTC
O.k. Since you can stipulate rules, I have one stipulation as well....Evolutionists....no using scientific proof as evidence.......O.K. lolol why not? what's good for the goose..............
?
2010-02-11 14:13:44 UTC
it's so obvious when the kiddies get out of school. Then you start seeing dumb questions like this. lol
2010-02-11 14:14:20 UTC
HERE WE GO AGAIN...WRONG BOARD CUZ IT IS FALSE AND I DONT CARE WHAT you want cuz youre offsubj...this is relig ...you dont make my rules...GOD DOES...GRRR


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