Question:
Why are non-theistic and irreligious Jews considered Jewish while "Messianic Jews" are considered Christian?
2008-08-11 18:31:00 UTC
I was wondering that, since many famous thinkers like Albert Einstein, Baruch Spinoza and Carl Sagan had views on God that differed from those stated in the Torah, and they are always labeled as Jews. In contrast, "Jews for Jesus" like Jay Sekulow, Moishe Rosen and Zola Levitt are regarded as Christians, even though they claim to follow all the Jewish laws and customs. Does this mean belief in a deity is irrelevant for Judaism as long as that deity is not Yeshua? In another side, is MCA from the Beastie Boys a Jewish Buddhist or just a Buddhist?
21 answers:
✡mama pajama✡
2008-08-11 20:15:31 UTC
"Jay Sekulow, Moishe Rosen and Zola Levitt are regarded as Christians, even though they claim to follow all the Jewish laws and customs"

The key word there is CLAIM. In fact, they violate the most basic of the Jewish laws and corrupt Jewish customs by interjecting the worship of a God concept forbidden to Jews.



I don't know the Beastie Boy you speak of, but with regard to Buddhism, it rather depends on the form of Buddhism and how they practice it. Some forms of Buddhism are polytheist ( from the literalist views present in the Dhammapadas) others follow a philosophy of life that is rather without any notion of god concept.

Any Jew who adopts a covenant of faith that is contradictory to Torah they become apostate.



Odd you should mention Spinoza, whose God concept Einstein embraced and is rather at odds with the personal God concept in Torah. Spinoza received a "cherem" , akin to an excommunication for it. That's something so harsh and severe, it is rarely ever done. They've not even issued one for Martin Meyer ( aka Moshe Rosen) as far as I know, despite his being ordained a Baptist Minister and changing the name of the Southern Baptist American Board of Missions to the Jews name to Jesus for Jesus. Perhaps because he had so openly rejected and left the Jewish people they saw no need. Einstein and Spinoza never left.

Einstein was even offered the Presidency of Israel and he traveled the United States raising money for it. “ The pursuit of knowledge for it’s own sake, an almost fanatical love of justice, and the desire for personal independence- these are the features of the Jewish tradition which make me thank my stars that I belong to it.” Albert Einstein



Both Spinoza and Einstein were proud to be Jews. Einstein and Spinoza shared a concept of an impersonal Creative force, not the God concept of Torah despite having both been Torah students as youth. They did not adopt other religions, and were rejected by the Orthodoxy, they did not reject Judaism for another religioin as the Jews who embrace Christianity do.



There are position statements from every Rabbnic council of every Branch of Judaism on the planet that tell us that we are obligated by Jewish law to inform others that someone who misrepresents a belief that is NOT Judaism AS Judaism ( whether it be Christianity or any other incompatible belief system) does not speak for or represent the Jewish people or the Jewish faith.



ANYone born to a Jewish mother (a Jew) who abandons the religion of Judaism for Christianity, is no longer following Judaism, hence, they're a Christian.. They make themselves apostate and outside the "tribe", however, if they repent and return to God through teshuvah, they're accepted as members once again.



It is Jewish law alone, not Christianity or any other entity that determines the status of who and what is Jewish. When a Jew adopts a belief that is in conflict with the Jewish religion, the belief does NOT become a " Jewish belief" just because a Jew chooses to believe in it. THAT is the conflict Jews have with the Christians who call themselves Jews if deceptively try to present their Christian belief AS Judaism. A Jew who converts to Hare Krishna is just as apostate, but there exists no Jews for Hare Krishna or Hare Krishna Judaism evangelic groups spending millions of dollars a year in campaigns to convert secular Jews by convincing them it is a form of Judaism.

You can become a member of a tribe or nation if you meet the criteria of citizenship. And the covenant people, Klal Yisrael, remain as in the earliest days of the covenant..a nation. It hasn't changed. This type of system of laws may not be easily understood but it is not exclusive to the covenant people of the Torah, the Jews, For example, the Lakota nation has tribal procedure and law to determine who is a memberof their tribe, who is not, who is expelled and who is adopted, so does Judaism



The Jewish people are considered both a nation and a religion. Our connection is primarily one of faith (religion) through the covenant of Israel, yet membership is also conferred by birth, through matrilineal descent .One may also become a part of the nation Israel by adoption of the faith of Judaism and formal procedures of conversion.



One who converts to Judaism is considered as FULLY Jewish as one born Jewish and their children are Jews. This has been the case since the times of the Torah.



However one can be a Jew and not belong to both. One may technically be a Jew if their mother is a Jew, but apostate to the covenant of Israel and no longer considered a member of the nation if they leave it for the covenant of faith of another religion.



We are Klal Yisrael, the community of Israel, and have a shared " destiny" and history.. Many different and distinctly Jewish cultures and ethnicities have developed over the millennia in Diaspora lands. The Diaspora refers to the Jewish presence outside of Israel after the destruction of the First and Second Temple periods and the Bar Kochba revolt. Another thing many people appear to be confused. There is no ONE Jewish ethnicity, but a great many ethnicities that are distinctly Jewish. There are the Mizrahi (from the Middle East and North Africa).The Sephardi (Spanish) and the Ashkenazi, (German, Polish, Russian and other Eastern European)that are all slightly different, even within those three designations as to cultural practices and foods, but it is the faith and covenant that binds them all together as Klal Yisrael.



The Jewish nation began as a group of tribes and our connection to one another is still from the perspective of a tribal nation. ( example:as the Lakota nation has tribal procedure and law to determine who is a memberof their tribe, who is not, who is expelled and who is adopted, so does Judaism.)

One born a member of the tribal covenant nation Israel ( Jewish) may not be observant or even believe in God and they’re still a full member, a Jew. They may not be a good member or an active member but they’ve not renounced membership. That is how one may be an "atheist Jew", they still may live Jewish ethics and identify with their people, but they did not take on foreign beliefs contradictory to monotheism or Torah. Now if one born into the covenant becomes apostate to it through rejection of the covenant by adoption of another belief contradictory to the covenant, they are still be considered a Jew, but for all intents and purposes, they're not given the status of a member. According to Jewish law they're not counted in a minyan, can't be buried in a Jewish cemetery, cannot be given honors to go up to read Torah at a synagogue, and may not speak for the Jewish people. They CAN however, return without formal conversion should they so desire and then be embraced again as full members. One who has left the Jewish people for the foreign faith of another people must uindergo the steps of TESHUVAH , which means repentance and return to the God of Israel. Some groups may require that the individual also requires immersion in the mikveh before being accepted back, but they do not require the formal steps of conversion should the person wish to return



EDIT: To comment to the ABSURD notion that Hitler had any legitimacy whatsoever to determine who or what is or is not Jewish. Nazis promoted the false notion that Jews are a race. Hitler did not create that notion as it began in the late 1800's, but he did use that antisemitic propaganda and many other things against Jewish law in order to discredit and persecute Jews. Both the concept that the dogma of a contradictory religion to Judaism or the pseudo scientific ideas of antisemites to purposely insult Jewish law from used by the Nazis, could have authority to determine Jewish identity OVER the right of the laws of the people in question , reveals utter disregard and disrespect of the right of the Jewish people to self-determination according to Jewish law with regard to who is or is not a Jew.



Jewish law alone determines for the Jewish people, Jewish identity and belief.
2008-08-13 05:45:03 UTC
Let's be totally clear: the Christians that go round posing as "messianic jews" are just that: Christians. Now, please tell me *why* they should be defined as Jews, when they are not?



There is no 'messianic sect IN Judaism. None. The Messianic movement of which you speak, was founded by evangelical Christians. It is funded by evangelical Churches. Messianics pray to Jesus, worship Jesus, and condemn ALL non Christians to 'hell'.



Does that sound remotely 'jewish' to you???



99% of Messianics were never Jewish at any point in time. The 1% of Messianics that were born Jews, are now practising Christians. Their only status in Judaism is that they are Apostate TO Judaism.



Would you define as 'Christian' someone who violated core Christian beliefs? No? Yet you expect Jews to do that?



A Jew who becomes a Christian = a CHRISTIAN



http://jew-with-a-view.blogspot.com





edit to ANNT



Oh give it a rest, you nudnik!



All JPA members are trying hard to promote correct understanding of Paganism, Judaism and other faiths. If you have a problem with that, tough. Stop KVETCHING.
Cher and Cher alike
2008-08-11 20:55:25 UTC
Messianics don't just believe in Jesus. They believe whole theological constructs that are Christian. And they disbelieve in basic Jewish constructs. Following rituals is NOT what makes Judaism. (Christains are taught that it does, but Jews aren't.) Judaism has a lot more concepts than just ritual actions (that come out of those concepts.) Wearing your siblings custom because you want to be like her, doesn't make you her.



These other folks are exploring ideas of what God can be within the original structure Judaism has always used. Their ideas do NOT conflict with those in Torah, although it does explore past some of the very literal interpretations.



Buddhism doesn't require belief in God, so if he adds ideas from Buddhism that are in Judaism, no conflict there. Judaism has a much, much wider range of possible "beliefs" in afterlife ideas than Christianity generally does, including reincarnation.



Just because someone calls themselves Jewish or was raised as one, doesn't make them Jewish. If Jews reject them as not related to our religion in any way -- that should be good enough for every people-respecting person. No justification needed.



Apparently you have to know Judaism (& respect it) to know how ludicrus it is to say you are practicing Judaism while believing God became a man & that a death was a sacrifice from which good can be gained, & if your beliefs don't conform you go to hell (Judaism doesn't focus on belliefs as saving you), and others you claim to be a part of are completely mistaken in their beliefs.



For 2000 years Jews have believed in one way, & been killed for NOT believing what messanics believe. So, we still have a right to reject those same exact beliefs & practice OUR religion.
2008-08-11 18:46:29 UTC
answer: the difference between being a non-practicing Jew and being an APOSTATE Jew.



Once you believe in Jesus as a messiah, you are a Christian. You are no longer Jewish because you are no longer practicing Judaism. Even if you take and twist Jewish rituals and holy days and inserting Jesus into them doesn't make one Jewish.



The group Jews4Jesus was started by a Baptist minister who falsely calls himself a Rabbi. They have the expressed intent on destroying Judaism by any means necessary and are intentionally deceptive.



That makes them anit-Jewish, not Jewish.
2008-08-11 22:34:35 UTC
answer: You've gotten some good answers from Jewish members of the forum and JPA members.



I'd like to correct someone responding with isolationist drivel. Only those who are insecure condemn the support shown between a group of contacts in this forum. Truly religious people aren't afraid of those with different religions, especially when the goal is understanding, not mixing of religions.



Tolerance is a wonderful thing, too bad some are as closed minded as any extremist and they tear down their fellow Jews. That's a day to mourn, according to Judaism.
devora k
2008-08-11 18:45:11 UTC
Congratulations on a great question. We Jews have as our main prayer the Schma( Hear} It belongs to all Jews Orthodox, Conservative and Reformed} It says in English Hear Oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Get it one and only one God! Messianic Jews believe in Jesus and therefore the trinity {father son and holy ghost} Three Gods Three minus one is two which is two too many for we Jews

For your information Einstein came back to his roots. I have a dear friend who is Christian who keeps kosher and observes our high holidays but she is still Christian and she acknowledges this. My point is following our laws does not make you Jewish.
Hatikvah
2008-08-11 19:14:30 UTC
Because Christians worship a dead human. For Jews, the belief that God would become human is the ultimate heresy!



The messiah will be nothing more than a mortal human just like the rest of us who will usher in that era of universal peace and justice for all. A Jew's most fervent prayer is for peace!



A Jew who converts to Christianity (or worships any other gods) becomes an apostate Jew and cannot participate within the Jewish community until he repents and returns to Judaism.



Christians have been trying to annhilate Jews for 2000 years. This is only the most recent attempt to wipe out the Jewish community by pretending to be Jews in order to convert us to Christianity. Enough is enough already!



Kudos to both kismet and Mama_Pajama. Both have added new ideas to the usual answers.

.
CC
2008-08-11 18:40:34 UTC
Anyone with Jewish heritage can claim to be a jew from their heritage.



Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ as lord god and savior is correctly called a christian. That is a religious position, not one of heritage.
Mark S, JPAA
2008-08-11 18:37:41 UTC
Anyone who believes that Jesus was the messiah is Christian. PERIOD. "Messianic Jews" are Christian. PERIOD.



[edit] I will be more explicit here. A "Messianic Jew" is an apostate. He cannot be counted as part of a minyan (number needed to pray communally); he cannot be buried in a Jewish ceremony; he cannot be called up to bless the Torah. He retains only the faintest grasp on his Jewishness--this is **our** decision, and we are the **only** ones who can decide who is Jewish and who is not.



A possibly irrelevant example: if you're American, you can vote. Even if you're ignorant. Even if you're anti-American. Even if you always vote "yes" or "no". But once convicted of a felony (in many states), you **give up the right** to vote.



You don't have to believe in G-d to be Jewish. Reminds me of a famous story:



Rabbi Moshe Leib said:

"There is no quality and there is no power of man that was created to no purpose. And even base and corrupt qualities can be uplifted to serve God. When, for example, haughty self-assurance is uplifed it changes into a high assurance in the ways of God. But to what end can the denial of God have been created? This too can be uplifted through deeds of charity. For if someone comes to you and asks your help, you shall not turn him out with pious words, saying: 'Have faith and take your troubles to God!' You shall act as if there were no God, as if there were only one person in all the world who could help this man--only yourself."
Benji
2008-08-11 18:39:01 UTC
If you believe in Christ then you are Christ-ian. This is a no brainer. Also, you better check your facts, Sagan was clearly an atheist.
2008-08-13 05:49:46 UTC
There's a fairly simple test here; dunno why you didn't figure it out.

If you believe Jesus is/was the messiah, you're a xian.

If you believe Jesus was NOT the messiah, you're (in this case) a Jew.



That was easy, huh?

~
Siñorina Lizardi
2008-08-11 20:28:44 UTC
You are a Jew whether you are an orthodox one and/or an ethnic one; my boyfriend is a secular Jew.
Bullfrog21
2008-08-11 18:36:25 UTC
Belief in Christ makes you a christian. Unbelief makes you something else.
kismet
2008-08-11 20:37:41 UTC
Just as a U.S. citizen is still a citizen even if they never vote, even if they do not celebrate July 4th, or even have turkey on Thanksgiving, they are still U.S. citizens. But if they become a citizen of another country, especially another country who is hostile to America, they lose their U.S. citizenship. Similarly, if a person converts TO Judaism they become a Jew, and if one converts out of Judaism one is no longer a Jew.



A Jew is a member of the religion of Judaism, and a Jew is a member of a nation defined by the religion of Judaism.



I am not talking about a nation meaning a country (like the STATE of Israel), which is defined by borders and passports. Rather, I am talking about a nation in the same sense we understand it in relationship to the Native American Indians. For them, we used to use the term "tribe," but the term "nation" is more accurate. For the Jews, the analogy to a nation is a perfect analogy, because that, indeed, is what God told Abra(ha)m God would make Abra(ha)m into, in Genesis 12:2, "And I will make of you a great NATION...." We are a nation, a nation defined by our religion.



For a person to become a citizen of a nation the process is called Naturalization. To become a citizen of the Jewish nation, the naturalization process is called conversion to the religion of Judaism. On the other hand, just because a "citizen" of this Jewish nation is totally non-practicing of the religion of Judaism, it does not mean that he or she is no longer a citizen, no longer a Jew, unless that person converts to another religion.



By Jewish Law, citizenship rights in the Jewish nation only come through the mother, while inheritance rights, which are related to lineage, come through the father. An example of the latter might be for inheriting property or for being a member of a specific tribe, like that of Benjamin, or Levi, which come through the father. Now, in the past couple of decades, only the Reform movement of Judaism has accepted the citizenship rights in the Jewish nation to also come through the father. However, this is true only if the child was raised with specific and exclusively Jewish ceremonies and affiliations (a fact usually not stated when referring to the Reform movement's position, but nevertheless true of the Reform movement's position).



The Jews are those who are followers of a religion and the Jews are members of a nation defined by that religion, even if they do not follow that religion. This is no different than citizens of the United States who do not exercise their right to vote. They may not do what one is supposed to do as a citizen, but they remain citizens.



One final note: as a Jew, one has been chosen by God to act as God's advertising agent in the world. God needs Jews to be a constant reminder to the rest of the world that God exists, and that God demands moral and ethical behavior from God's creation. Jews have a mission in the world. That mission, as defined by our covenant with God, is to be a light unto the nations, by our actions, and by our invitation to all others to join us in our mission by converting to Judaism and thereby becoming Jews. Those actions that make us a light to the nations are not merely ethical behavior on our part; they also serve to make us different, and "holy" means "different," through the observance of the commandments.



If one joins a completely Other faith, as messianic "Jews" have done by accepting Jesus as their personal savior and messiah, they are no longer Jews. They are Christians. One might also exclude the New Agers from the Jews as well, as well as the now ex-Jewish Buddhists, etc. To deny an element of a faith is not the same thing as joining another faith, getting baptized into it, etc. Those messianic "Jews" want to see themselves as still Jewish even though they now believe exactly the same as the members of the Southern Baptist, Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, and Assemblies of God churches. It is these churches and denominations that fund and establish and maintain messianic "synagogues."



This leads to two related issues.



First of all, if these groups are still Jewish, how come the people who fund them are not their "fellow" Jews? They do not receive their monies from any recognized national Jewish religious organization like the United Synagogues of Conservative Judaism, or the Union of American Hebrew Congregations (which is Reform). The Messianics do not receive their monies from donations from individual synagogues or temples. When these Messianic "synagogues" form, they usually start meeting in churches. They begin meeting there, not because the Liberal Christian church is being nice, which happens often for real Jewish congregations, rather the Fundamentalist church where they start meeting is sponsoring the Messianic "Synagogue." The Messianics also do not receive any monies from any national Jewish secular organizations either, like the Federations, the Anti-Defamation League, or the American Jewish Committee. As a matter of fact, these organizations have committees and sub-committees to fight the missionaries.



Another question is, If the messianics claim to remain Jews, what do these messianics say about their supposedly "fellow" Jews? Messianic "Jews" will say that the real Jews are going to Hell because they don't accept Jesus. This means that the messianic "Jews" condemn to hell the very group of which they still claim to be a part. Does this make sense? That means that as soon as they become a Christian, as soon as they accept Jesus as their personal savior, son of god, and messiah, they then condemn what is supposedly their own group. But no one else who claims to be Jewish, no one else who does, indeed, remain a Jew, condemns his or her own Jews to Hell for their lack of belief in Jesus. Many churches do, indeed, condemn the Jews to Hell for not accepting Jesus. Talk about trying to have one's cake and eat it too!? To the Jewish community, it is ridiculous to claim one can be a Jew and a Christian at the same time, and knowledgeable Jews are not fooled.
Annt Hu DeShalit
2008-08-11 21:41:04 UTC
Belief in Jebus by a Jew is crossing the line.



But most of these people are in fact Xtians who never were Jews to begin with.



Stay away from anybody who pushes "Messianic Judaism." That is just a missionary trick to get you to become a Christian.



Look out for anyone who refers to "Yashua." This is a trick to avoid using the name "Jesus," so that these missionaries imply that they are not pushing Christianity, when of course they are.



You will note that no legitimate Christian group uses this name for Jesus. Nor does any legitimate Jewish group.



Jesus is called Yeshu Hanotzri in Hebrew.



YeshuAH does indeed mean salvation in Hebrew. But that is not relevant, except to missionaries out to capture Jewish souls.



Also beware of people calling themselves JPA or JPAA.



Avoid anyone who claims to be Jewish and is allied with pagans. The giveaway is their use of the abbreviation JPA.







.
?
2008-08-11 18:36:50 UTC
Each has it's own label. Jews who believe in Christ are Messianic Jews, and irreligious Jews are most often called secular Jews, and Jews in Russia are called Russian Jews. But all are still called Jews. They just carry different labels to explain their different categories.



Someone born Jewish who converts to Christianity is still Jewish. I'm not aware of someone becoming Christian saying I'm no longer Jewish. Later generations might loose their Jewish identity as they marry Gentiles.
Broke D
2008-08-11 18:33:33 UTC
the real Jews are religouse orthadox Jews.
2008-08-11 18:44:50 UTC
A Jew does not believe in Jesus,,but the Bible say,s when we are born again the God circuncises out heart by the spirit

and we then become Jews inwardly,
?
2008-08-11 18:38:05 UTC
In the end does it really make a difference? Either one group is right and the other is wrong or both are wrong.
The Sage
2008-08-11 18:50:38 UTC
Any person with a Jewish mother or maternal grandmother is Jewish, regardless of their religious belief. Just ask Hitler ym"s, they went back two or three generations.
Alex (Laika)
2008-08-11 18:34:32 UTC
Ahhhh the FUBAR world of religion... that's what religion does to you.. it makes your brain and your thinking FUBAR!


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
Loading...