Question:
Jehovah's Witnesses: Why do you believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel?
Paul Tilley Com
2008-01-27 11:32:17 UTC
In light of the following:

Hebrews 1:5-8 “For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be His Father, and He will be my Son"?

The angels are called sons of God (Genesis 6:2-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7), but Jesus is THE Son of God (Hebrews 1:8; Matthew 4:3-6).

In Matthew 4:10, Jesus rebukes Satan. In Jude verse 9, Michael the Archangel calls on the Lord to rebuke Satan.
Fourteen answers:
achtung_heiss
2008-01-28 21:29:14 UTC
Jehovah's Witnesses do happen to believe that Michael is Jesus, but the idea is hardly central to their faith.



It is just that a child can recognize what the bible says about the idea...



Is not Jesus Christ the primary "Seed" who defeats Satan? The Millennial Rule begins with Satan's abyssing, performed by Christ Jesus, and no mere subsidiary. Thus, when Revelation 12:7-9 tells us that "Michael" performs this work, Jehovah's Witnesses are convinced that "Michael" is simply another name for Jesus, just as "Immanuel", "Sprout", "David", and "The Word" are additional names of Jesus (see Matt 1:23 ["Immanuel"]; Zech 6:12 ["Sprout", "Branch", or "Shoot"]; Ezek 37:24,25 ["David"]; Rev 19:13 ["The Word of God"]).



(Genesis 3:15) He [the Seed of God's woman] will bruise you [the original serpent Satan] in the head



(Revelation 12:7-9) Michael and his angels battled with the dragon... So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan



(Revelation 20:1-3) And I saw an angel... And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. And he hurled him into the abyss



(Revelation 20:6-7) Rule as kings with [Christ] for the thousand years.





Almost comically, the same trinitarians who insist that Jesus cannot have another name are the same persons who pretend that Jesus is also called Jehovah.



While anti-Witnesses pretend that Jehovah's Witnesses rely upon one Scripture for the belief that Jesus is the archangel Michael, that passage (1 Thes 4:14-16) is simply the easiest, most concise demonstration of the fact.

...(1 Thessalonians 4:14-16) Jesus died and rose again, so, too... the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice



Learn more:

http://watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm?article=article_05.htm

http://watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_03.htm

http://watchtower.org/e/dg/index.htm?article=article_03.htm

http://watchtower.org/e/lmn/index.htm?article=article_04.htm





Hebrews 1:5 and 1:13 are absolutely the OPPOSITE of trinity proof texts! In fact, these verses (along with the verses from which Paul there quotes) demonstrate conclusively that Jesus *IS* (and was) an angel and distinct from Jehovah. Those verses ask three questions which are actually specific references to earlier Scriptures about Jesus, and each and every one of those Hebrew Scriptures juxtaposes Jesus as separate and distinct from the person of "Jehovah" (note that each referenced "OT" Scripture actually uses the Tetragrammaton). Thus, when each question frames itself as asking about “which angel” ("to which angel...?") then a well-read bible student in Paul's day or our own day would immediately recognize the quoted verses which supply each answer as pointing to Jesus (A: "the angel is Jesus!"), and reminding that Jesus is a distinct person from Jehovah.



There is no reason to argue that the apostle Paul was asking trick questions. Here is each of Paul’s rhetorical questions, along with the earlier Scriptural references from which Paul quotes...





From Hebrews 1:5, the question posed:

Q: [quote]To which one of the angels did [God] ever say: "You are my son; I, today, I have become your father"?[unquote]



The obvious answer:

To which angel? To the angel Jesus, the Christ, as Psalm 2 shows!

(Psalm 2:2-12) High officials themselves have massed together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one [footnote; "Christ"]... Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah; He has said to me: "You are my son; I, today, I have become your father..."





From Hebrews 1:5, the question posed:

Q: [quote]To which of one of the angels did [God] ever say: ..."I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son"?[unquote]



The obvious answer:

To which angel? To the angel Jesus, God's chosen King, as 2 Samuel 7 shows!

(2 Samuel 7:11-14) Jehovah has told you ... I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son





From Hebrews 1:13, the question posed:

Q: [quote]To which one of the angels has [God] ever said: “Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”?[unquote]



The obvious answer:

To which angel? To the angel Jesus, who waited patiently for God's purposes to unfold, as Psalm 110 shows!

(Psalm 110:1) The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

. . Remarkably, the only way this passage from Hebrews could possibly reconcile with trinitarianism is if one believes Paul was asking trick questions to confuse his readers.

http://watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm?article=article_06.htm







Do the Scriptures themselves ever show Jesus rebuking Satan, even one time? Or does Jesus allow his Father to "make the reply"?

...(Proverbs 27:11) Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me.

...(Matthew 4:1-4) Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil. ...the Tempter came and said to him: “If you are a son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread.” But in reply he said: “It is written [by God]...

...(Matthew 4:5-7) Then the Devil took [Jesus] along... and said to him: “If you are a son of God, hurl yourself down... Jesus said to him: “Again it is written [by God]...

...(Matthew 4:8-11) Again the Devil took [Jesus] along to an unusually high mountain... and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.” Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written [by God]...





Thanks again for the opportunity to show the bible truth that Jesus the Son is a distinct person from Jehovah the Father!

...(Jude 9) But when Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil... he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: “May Jehovah rebuke you.”

...(1 Thessalonians 4:14-16) Jesus died and rose again, so, too... the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice



Learn more:

http://watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm?article=article_05.htm

http://watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_03.htm

http://watchtower.org/e/dg/index.htm?article=article_03.htm

http://watchtower.org/e/lmn/index.htm?article=article_04.htm
?
2016-05-22 06:06:31 UTC
Is there a scripture that says Michael the archangel was Adam? Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is the only-begotten, divine Son of God. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is our Lord, Savior, and Redeemer. And Jehovah's Witnesses believe that "Michael the archangel" may be a role or title among Jesus' many roles and titles in the Bible. In the New Testament, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 associates Jesus with the archangel. Other verses in the books of Daniel and Revelation describe Michael as doing things that Jesus also does. Jehovah's Witnesses give no more importance to the matter than the Bible itself does. Our worship of God does not depend on knowing precisely who Michael the archangel is. We worship God in the name of Jesus Christ, and we pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ.
no name
2008-02-01 14:47:57 UTC
Is Jesus Christ the same person as Michael the archangel?



The name of this Michael appears only five times in the Bible. The glorious spirit person who bears the name is referred to as “one of the chief princes,” “the great prince who has charge of your [Daniel’s] people,” and as “the archangel.” (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9, RS) Michael means “Who Is Like God?” The name evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah’s sovereignty and destroying God’s enemies.



At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as “the archangel’s call,” and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael. Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus’ commanding call to that of someone lesser in authority? Reasonably, then, the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ. (Interestingly, the expression “archangel” is never found in the plural in the Scriptures, thus implying that there is only one.)



Revelation 12:7-12 says that Michael and his angels would war against Satan and hurl him and his wicked angels out of heaven in connection with the conferring of kingly authority on Christ. Jesus is later depicted as leading the armies of heaven in war against the nations of the world. (Rev. 19:11-16) Is it not reasonable that Jesus would also be the one to take action against the one he described as “ruler of this world,” Satan the Devil? (John 12:31) Daniel 12:1 (RS) associates the ‘standing up of Michael’ to act with authority with “a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.” That would certainly fit the experience of the nations when Christ as heavenly executioner takes action against them. So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.
Mr. Cal
2008-01-27 12:07:47 UTC
The spirit creature called Michael is not mentioned often in the Bible. However, when he is referred to, he is in action. In the book of Daniel, Michael is battling wicked angels; in the letter of Jude, he is disputing with Satan; and in Revelation, he is waging war with the Devil and his demons. By defending Jehovah’s rulership and fighting God’s enemies, Michael lives up to the meaning of his name—“Who Is Like God?” But who is Michael?



At times, individuals are known by more than one name. For example, the patriarch Jacob is also known as Israel, and the apostle Peter, as Simon. (Genesis 49:1, 2; Matthew 10:2) Likewise, the Bible indicates that Michael is another name for Jesus Christ, before and after his life on earth. Let us consider Scriptural reasons for drawing that conclusion.



Archangel. God’s Word refers to Michael “the archangel.” (Jude 9) This term means “chief angel.” Notice that Michael is called the archangel. This suggests that there is only one such angel. In fact, the term “archangel” occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural. Moreover, Jesus is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 states: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” Thus the voice of Jesus is described as being that of an archangel. This scripture therefore suggests that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael.



Army Leader. The Bible states that “Michael and his angels battled with the dragon . . . and its angels.” (Revelation 12:7) Thus, Michael is the Leader of an army of faithful angels. Revelation also describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. (Revelation 19:14-16.) And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7; Matthew 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22) So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” (Matthew 13:41) Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven—one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus—it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.



If you would like further information, please get in touch with Jehovah's Witnesses at the local Kingdom Hall. Or visit



Bible -
2008-01-31 13:31:15 UTC
The Bible’s Viewpoint



Who Is Michael the Archangel?



ACCORDING to the Bible, there are millions of angelic creatures inhabiting the spirit realm. (Daniel 7:9, 10; Revelation 5:11) From beginning to end, the Scriptures make hundreds of references to the angels that remain loyal to God. Yet, only two of these spirit creatures are mentioned by name. One is the angel Gabriel, who personally delivered messages from God to three different individuals over a period of some 600 years. (Daniel 9:20-22; Luke 1:8-19, 26-28) The other angel mentioned by name in the Bible is Michael.



Michael is clearly an outstanding angel. For example, in the book of Daniel, Michael is described as fighting wicked demons in behalf of Jehovah’s people. (Daniel 10:13; 12:1) In the inspired letter of Jude, Michael confronts Satan in a dispute over Moses’ body. (Jude 9) The book of Revelation shows that Michael wars with Satan and his demons and hurls them out of heaven. (Revelation 12:7-9) No other angel is portrayed as having such great power and authority over God’s enemies. It is no wonder, then, that the Bible appropriately refers to Michael as “the archangel,” the prefix “arch” meaning “chief,” or “principal.”



The Controversy Over Michael’s Identity



Christendom’s religions, as well as Judaism and Islam, have conflicting ideas on the subject of angels. Some explanations are vague. For instance, The Anchor Bible Dictionary states: “There may be a single superior angel and/or a small group of archangels (usually four or seven).” According to The Imperial Bible-Dictionary, Michael is the “name of a superhuman being, in regard to whom there have in general been two rival opinions, either that he is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, or that he is one of the so-called seven archangels.”



In Jewish tradition these seven archangels are Gabriel, Jeremiel, Michael, Raguel, Raphael, Sariel, and Uriel. On the other hand, Islam believes in four archangels, namely, Jibril, Mikal, Izrail, and Israfil. Catholicism also believes in four archangels: Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel. What does the Bible say? Are there several archangels?



The Bible’s Answer



Aside from Michael, no archangel is mentioned in the Bible, nor do the Scriptures use the term “archangel” in the plural. The Bible describes Michael as the archangel, implying that he alone bears that designation. Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that Jehovah God has delegated to one, and only one, of his heavenly creatures full authority over all other angels.



Aside from the Creator himself, only one faithful person is spoken of as having angels under subjection—namely, Jesus Christ. (Matthew 13:41; 16:27; 24:31) The apostle Paul made specific mention of “the Lord Jesus” and “his powerful angels.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7) And Peter described the resurrected Jesus by saying: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.”—1 Peter 3:22.



While there is no statement in the Bible that categorically identifies Michael the archangel as Jesus, there is one scripture that links Jesus with the office of archangel. In his letter to the Thessalonians, the apostle Paul prophesied: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16) In this scripture Jesus is described as having assumed his power as God’s Messianic King. Yet, he speaks with “an archangel’s voice.” Note, too, that he has the power to raise the dead.



While on earth as a human, Jesus performed several resurrections. In doing so, he used his voice to utter commanding calls. For example, when resurrecting the dead son of a widow in the city of Nain, he said: “Young man, I say to you, Get up!” (Luke 7:14, 15) Later, just before resurrecting his friend Lazarus, Jesus “cried out with a loud voice: ‘Lazarus, come on out!’” (John 11:43) But on these occasions, Jesus’ voice was the voice of a perfect man.



After his own resurrection, Jesus was raised to a “superior position” in heaven as a spirit creature. (Philippians 2:9) No longer a human, he has the voice of an archangel. So when God’s trumpet sounded the call for “those who are dead in union with Christ” to be raised to heaven, Jesus issued “a commanding call,” this time “with an archangel’s voice.” It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call “with an archangel’s voice.”



Yes, there are other angelic creatures of high rank, such as seraphs and cherubs. (Genesis 3:24; Isaiah 6:2) Yet, the Scriptures point to the resurrected Jesus Christ as the chief of all angels—Michael the archangel.
ShineAsIlluminatorsInTheWorld
2008-01-27 12:39:21 UTC
Jesus and Michael the Archangel both have an army of angels. Michael battles with Satan and hurls him down from heaven. Jesus also battles with Satan and defeats him. Since Jesus has a superior position which God gave him (he is the King of God's Kingdom ) wouldn't he be appropiate to be the chief of such an army?

Read Revelation 12:7-9 and 19:11-21 .
?
2008-02-01 12:55:13 UTC
It seems that you people put more emphasize on your question than we do. We use our energies to do the preaching work, attend meetings, and cultivate the fruitage of the spirit, as of late, some of it is used answering repetitive questions like the one above. The reason is explained very well in other comments.
2008-01-28 18:30:05 UTC
It is a teaching that they have, a completely non Biblical teaching. There is not a single verse in the Bible that says Michael became Jesus. Yet the Watchtower Society had made doctrine when there is not a verse to support their claim.
2008-02-01 06:24:43 UTC
Achtung, great cut and paste - again. Um... you did not list a single verse that says Michael became Jeusus or vise versa.
2008-01-27 11:36:27 UTC
The JW's are a sect man......and God has nothing to do with them. Revelations 22:18.
Thinkpad User
2008-01-27 17:00:08 UTC
In Hebrews 1:4 He has become as much superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is superior to theirs.



And the angels must have blasphemed when they worshipped an 'angel' in Hebrews 1:6.



So their God is a Big God, and the second god they believe and follow is Michael the small god, are they ever confused?????



--------------------------------------...



Addition:



For teeM, I noticed you referred to Hebrews 1:6 as obeisance not worship? If you look into your NWT Bible and look up the footnote for this word, it says...[Or, "let...worship." Gr., Pro-sky-ne-sa'to-san; Lat., a-do'rent. See 2Ki 2;15 and ftn.]



You said and I quote..."(As we’ve seen thus far – Jesus is a creation and as such is not to be worshiped.

As firstborn, appointed by God, he is entitled to Homage)"



If your Bible says not only obeisance but rather obeisance OR worship, your Bible is saying the angels have done obeisance or worshipped an angel, since Jesus is an angel in one of your doctrines.



In verse 4 it says He has become 'MUCH' more superior than the angels, so how can He still be one of those angels? In Daniel 10:13 Michael is only one of the chief princes. This chief prince definitely does not look more superior than the other chief princes in that verse. Here are some questions for you...



Did Gabriel do worship/obeisance to Michael? Here are two powerful archangels in the Bible, why is it only Michael who receives worship/obeisance and receives a much more superior name when both are archangels? If Michael is Jesus, why didn't the Bible say those words?



For Light 4 blind people...you asked how can Michael and Jesus both have an army of angels? Jesus said in Matthew 26:53 that He can appeal for 12 legions (armies) of angels, so there are many armies of angels. In Revelation 12:7 there is no mention of an 'army' of angels, only Michael and his angels who fought the war against the Dragon and his angels.



--------------------------------------...



New Addition:



For teeM...I am surprised you would say the word context, for you do not know the meaning of such a word. Your biblical understanding is non-contextual to say the least, and here's why...



In Deuteronomy 32:43 in the Septuagint Greek Mss., this is where Paul was quoting the Hebrews passage from...



Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him



In the Dead Sea Scrolls there is also a similar passage...



“Rejoice, O heavens, together with him; and bow down to him all you gods, for he will avenge the blood of his sons ...”



No doubt, if you want to change the New Testament writings like what the translators of the NWT Bible did, you will also have to go back and re-write all the former Mss. of the OT.



For proof of Gabriel as being one of a number of archangels, you can check into this site...

http://altreligion.about.com/library/tex...

and compare Gabriel with Michael and all the other archangels. This book was written by Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah. This Mss. was also found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.



You still did not explain why you deny your NWT Bible's two translations for that proskuneo word. Your Bible does add a footnote stating OR worship, so obeisance is NOT the only accepted translation in Hebrews 1:6, according to your translators. Can you give a straight answer this time?



--------------------------------------...



Again, another addition...



For teeM...again you stated your false analogy for rendering the proskuneo word in Hebrews 1:6 as obeisance, not worship. I'm sorry, but your explanation for denying your Watchtower translators of the two renderings (obeisance OR worship) is not sufficient, and for two big reasons...



1-It is not in your place to translate the Bible on your own, for you are not qualified to be a translator. Your Watchtower translated it for you and you are required to accept your Watchtower translators.



2-Doctrines do not re-write or re-translate a Bible. God wrote the Bible and no one person has the right to change the words for dogmatic reasons, which you just stated you are doing here and now.



This is what I wrote before about Deuteronomy 32:43 in the Septuagint Greek Mss...



Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him



...and this is your reply...



"This verse literally says “let all the angels of God bow down to him” Which is what proskuneo literally means."



In the Vine's Expository Dictionary of the New Testament Words, on that same Blue Letter Bible Lexicon page for proskuneo, it says...



[Worship (Verb and Noun), Worshiping:



"to make obeisance, do reverence to" (from pros, "towards," and kuneo, "to kiss"), is the most frequent word rendered "to worship." It is used of an act of homage or reverence]



Your NWT Bible renders all the proskuneo words for the Devil and his agents as worship, while the Son of God only gets a mere obeisance in each rendering. I see everything wrong with the way the Watchtower glorified the Devil over Jesus, don't you?



As for the Book of Enoch, these are not false teachings, my friend. They are real manuscripts written for the Son of Man and His archangels. You would notice how the JWs don't like this book because the Son of Man is depicted as a separate person from Michael? Even the Jews don't like this book because the Messiah was written all over it. Real Christians would highly value its contents because of all the references for Jesus. What's your angle for hating these books? I thought you loved Jesus, but then again, I guess I'm wrong?



--------------------------------------...



And for trustdel...



You stated and I quote...



"Your “rebuking” reasoning is very weak. Jesus can rebuke and not rebuke anytime he wishes. It doesn’t mean that he cannot rebuke or not rebuke at all. Jesus can also ask his Father to rebuke Satan, so that is not a proof of Trinity."



Are you talking about Michael? If so, then why would Michael not rebuke Satan when he had the chance? As if you are saying Jesus didn't heal the sick when He had the chance, He didn't raise the dead when He had the chance, or He didn't sacrifice on the Cross when He had the chance, etc... Your reasoning on the rebuking issues are full of weaknesses and are back-firing with your own words.



And you stated and I quote...



"The Bible also doesn’t use the terms “God-Man” TriUne God, Trinity, Three Persons in One God , Three in One God , TriUne characters of God, and other terminologies that Trinitarians invented. Why do you think you can’t find the word “reincarnation” in the Bible? The reason why you can’t find the word “reincarnation” in the Bible is the same reason why you can’t find the word “Trinity” in the Bible."



The Bible also doesn't use the terms for Jesus as "a god", as another god you will believe and follow, which is polytheism. Also the words "Jesus is Michael" is never found in the Bible. You will never see the words "first created" to replace the firstborn. All the negative translations were used for Jesus in the NWT Bible, all pointing to the views of Arius the theologian.



You stated and I quote...



"Note that Jesus calls his Father, My God. www.dictionary.com defines God also as “one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe”



So basically, Jesus said “My God” means “My Supreme Being and CREATOR”"



And so again, your words are back-firing. Remember what Thomas said to Jesus "My Lord and My God!"? So Jesus is Thomas' Supreme Being and CREATOR", and He is also my Supreme Being and CREATOR. Jesus said in Revelation 1:17 "I Am the First and the Last". He said, before Abraham was born I AM.



If you think the Trinity is false and somehow think your polytheism of a Big God and a small god is right, then maybe you should read the whole Bible in context again. Something went wrong with your reading in context, especially where God said there is no other gods besides Me, He said also there is no other saviors besides Me. If you somehow think it is alright to have another savior and another god besides the Father, then you are not at all reading the Bible in context.



We as Trinitarian Christians believe in only One God, One Lord and One Savior, and this is in line with scripture. Your beliefs of a Big God and a small god who are two Lords and two Saviors are out of scripture and only in line with the Watchtower false teachings.



------------------------------------



For Ryan B...would you say that if Michael is Jesus returning with a loud voice of an archangel and a trumpet call, does this imply Him being worshipped in Hebrews 1:6 as still an angel? Your NWT Bible does specifically render that proskuneo word as obeisance OR worship in the footnote. Here is a quote from Watchtower 1983 2/15 "Questions From Readers"...



[In Hebrews chapter 1 the apostle Paul drew attention to Jesus’ superiority over the angels. In this regard verses 5 and 6 contain three quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures, which Paul applies to Jesus. As you read Hebrews 1:5, 6, note in particular the two occurrences of the word “again”:



“For example, to which one of the angels did he [Jehovah God] ever say: ‘You are my son; I, today, I have become your father’? And again: ‘I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son’? But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: ‘And let all God’s angels do obeisance to [or, worship] him.’”—Hebrews 1:5, 6.]



Obviously if you say He returns as an angel, then this angel is to be worshipped by other angels.
2008-01-27 16:37:38 UTC
You can show them proof until the cows come home and they will not see...it is sad but true. Best that you can hope for is to persuade some person looking into studying a false Gospel, to think again.
trustdell1
2008-01-29 10:47:04 UTC
Jesus is different than all the other angels, although he being the Chief of Angels or Archangel, he is also the ONLY-BEGOTTEN SON of God. The rest of creation are created through Jesus. Jesus is also the Christ,the Word and our Lord. Jesus has a name Immanuel so it is not unreasonable to say that Jesus other name is Michael.



In Heb 1:5-8, it talks about Jesus when he was human and when Jesus was not a spirit. Mark 1:11 for example stated “You are my son” notice the declaration and approval of Jesus as God’s son was first told when he was HUMAN and not when Jesus was a spirit. No other angels are declared and approved as “God’s Son” except Jesus , eventhough the Bible calls these other angels , son of God.



Your “rebuking” reasoning is very weak. Jesus can rebuke and not rebuke anytime he wishes. It doesn’t mean that he cannot rebuke or not rebuke at all. Jesus can also ask his Father to rebuke Satan, so that is not a proof of Trinity.







Now, regarding Jesus as the Archangel. Please notice these Bible texts.





However, the friend of the bridegroom, when he stands and hears him, has a great deal of joy on account of the voice of the bridegroom. John 3:29 – Who owns the voice of the bridegroom? And the one who owns the voice of the bridegroom is the bridegroom himself, isn’t he?



1 The 4:16 states “because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.”



Who has the voice of an archangel who have a commanding call and when the dead hears that archangel’s voice that they in turn was raised up in union with Christ? The owner of that archangel’s voice is Jesus. Notice, Jesus has God’s TRUMPET (singular) and the effect once that trumpet is sounded is that THE DEAD will RISE.



Just like in John 3:29 , the one with the voice of the bridegroom is the bridegroom himself, so in 1 The 4:16 the one with the voice of the archangel who can raise the dead, is also an archangel.



Just think of this, if Jesus can be a human, why can’t he be the archangel which means Chief of Angels.





(Job 38:4,7) When [Jehovah] founded the earth... When the morning STARs [or "angels"] joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause



(Revelation 22:16) I, Jesus... I am the root and the offspring of David, and the BRIGHT morning STAR.











The Bible doesn’t support the idea of Trinity nor says that Jesus is the Almighty God.



The Bible also doesn’t use the terms “God-Man” TriUne God, Trinity, Three Persons in One God , Three in One God , TriUne characters of God, and other terminologies that Trinitarians invented. Why do you think you can’t find the word “reincarnation” in the Bible? The reason why you can’t find the word “reincarnation” in the Bible is the same reason why you can’t find the word “Trinity” in the Bible.





Isa 44:6 states that there is no other God besides him.

- This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.



This means that there is no other God, who is Almighty, and the Repurchaser. Notice the phrase it used, “I AM” and “ME”. DO you use the phrases “I am” and “ME” for THREE PERSONS? The phrase “I am” is not used for THREE PERSONS and to ONLY ONE PERSON.



Because it uses the phrase "I am" AND “ME” and “NO GOD BESIDES ME” in Isa 44:6, so there is no room for OTHER persons who are part of God, isn't it? So Isa 44:6 PROVES that God is only ONE PERSON, not THREE



IF only one person is talking in Isa 44:6 and he said “Besides ME, there is NO GOD” then if there’s still TWO OTHER PERSONS who is God, then you are saying that God is telling a lie.



God is not a liar, so it is the Trinity doctrine that is wrong.



Isa 63:16 - 16 For you are our Father; although Abraham himself may not have known us and Israel himself may not recognize us, you, O Jehovah, are our Father.



Jesus said at John 20:17 “‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’” Notice Jesus has a God, whom he called “My God” and who is also his Father.



At Luk23:46 it states 46 And Jesus called with a loud voice and said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” This was quoted from Psalms 31:5. So you can tell that Jesus called to his Father when he was about to die. “Into your hand I entrust my spirit.” The text continues “You have redeemed me, O Jehovah the God of truth.”





Note that Jesus calls his Father, My God. www.dictionary.com defines God also as “one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe”



So basically, Jesus said “My God” means “My Supreme Being and CREATOR”







Gen 1:26 states “Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..”



Does this verse make God composed of THREE persons?



Please notice this.



The Mother said “Let US make a cake”, Is the Mother composed of THREE PERSONS? Or Is the Mother THREE Mothers?

Or The Mother is only talking to someone else, which let’s say is a daughter.





Here are Bible proofs why the doctrine of Trinity is false.



Isa 44:24 conflicts with the doctrine of the Trinity. In the Trinity’s doctrine, there are THREE CREATORS. But Isa 44:24 states that there is ONLY one CREATOR, Jehovah, he is the only Creator. If what you said was true, then this text doesn’t allow for ANY partners as well because of the term “by MYSELF”. MYSELF is only used for ONE PERSON and NEVER THREE PERSONS.



Acts 2:36 states that God has MADE Jesus both Lord and Christ. The Lordship of Jesus has a beginning because it was MADE by God.



JWs believe in the God the Father, the Son of God (Jesus) and God’s holy spirit. It is just different with the Trinity doctrine which says that those three are “Three Persons in one God” who are all Almighty.





Phil 2:5-7 states



Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.



Before coming down to earth, Jesus was a spirit, and the Son of God. Jesus emptied himself and left his position and form (form being a spirit, and other positions in heaven) and became like men (Physical).



If Jesus is God Man on earth, then he didn’t really EMPTIED himself. Actually Jesus is the Son of God who EMPTIED himself and became flesh (man). Notice John 3:16 , it is the Son who was sent and not God himself.





Col 2:19.10 states “For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily”. Bodily according to Strong’s dictionary is corporeal or physical. Now, think about this, if this meant that the FULLNESS of the Godhead means FULLNESS OF BEING GOD, then how come Jesus when he was human says, The Father is GREATER than me. Jesus also LEARNED obedience. Jesus when he was a human, doesn’t know the last days’ hour/time. If Jesus’ was fully God when he was human and he has FULLNESS of being God, how come there are these limitations? If there are limitations, or lackness of abilities, then it is not FULL.





Here are the Bible texts that proves that Jesus was created.



1.

John 5:26 states “For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to HAVE LIFE in himself”.

John 6:57 – “… and I LIVE because of the Father”.

Life (eternal life and life to exist) was given by the Father to Jesus, the Son.

2. For Trinitarians, the Son and Father relationship has no beginning. But Heb 1:5, that the Son and Father relationship has a beginning. Notice it uses the words “today” and “I have become”

In Heb 1:5 it states "You are my son; I, TODAY, I have become your father"?.



3. Here’s another Bible text that proves that the Father created Jesus. Notice it uses the words “This day” and begotten/made to prove that the Son has a beginning.

Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten(Gennao) thee. Acts 13:33



The word begotten in Greek is gennao. It means “to be born” –Strong’s dictionary defines this as procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be BORN, BRING FORTH, conceive, be delivered of, gender, MAKE, spring.



At Acts 13:33, it states the Father “has MADE/BRING FORTH” the Son. This verse talks about the relationship of God to his Son whom he MADE/BROUGHT FORTH (Gennoa).



4. We have to note that Jesus calls his Father, My God. www.dictionary.com defines God also as “one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe”

, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’” - John 20:17

So basically, Jesus said “My God” means “My Supreme Being and CREATOR”







5. Rev 3:14, Jesus is called the “beginning of the CREATION of/by God”.



Jesus being the first or beginning is also qualified (Rev 3:14) . The God the Father is the Beginning and the End, but he is never called, “, the beginning of the creation BY/OF God” only Jesus is called that term. This term can be properly understood as “of the CREATION BY God, Jesus is the beginning”. This basically means Jesus is still part of the CREATION, notice the term OF THE CREATION BY GOD, eventhough he is the beginning, ruler, etc.



When someone says “Of the horses of the Smiths, this one is really fast”. The “one”, is still a horse, a member of that group, owned by the Smiths, and not a Smith. So when the Bible described Jesus as “of the creation by God” , it only means that Jesus is still a member “of the creation by God”.





6.PROVERBS 8:22: - 22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago . The Hebrew word for produced/possessed (qanah – Strongs’ dictionary defines it as “erect, that is, create”.

Is the wisdom talked about in Prov 8 the LITERAL wisdom of God. No, because God has always wisdom. God’s wisdom has no beginning. If this is not the literal wisdom then it is the FIGURATIVE Wisdom. 1 Cor 1:24 states that “, Christ the power of God and the WISDOM of God.” So the Bible tells us that Jesus is the Wisdom of God, therefore we can relate that to Prov 8.

Prov 8:22 & 24 used the words produced/created (qanah) & brought forth/formed (chul See Deut 32:18) . These words describe that the figurative Wisdom of God (Christ) was CREATED/FORMED.

Well, one might say, the word “Wisdom” used in Prov 8 is in feminine form, therefore it can’t be Jesus. As I’ve said, the word “wisdom” in Prov 8 is figurative not the literal “wisdom” of God. 1 Pet 2:8 called Jesus the rock-mass (Greek petra which is also in feminine form), that doesn’t mean that Jesus is a woman.



7. Micah 5:2 describes Jesus as having an ORIGIN “ whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite”. The Hebrew word for the word “origin” is motsaah and according to Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary it is “family descent” A descent means “derivation from an ancestor; lineage; extraction”. God has no beginning, nor came/extracted /derived from anything.













8. Acts 2:36 states that God has MADE Jesus both Lord and Christ. The Lordship of Jesus has a beginning because it was MADE by God.
TeeM
2008-01-27 19:11:06 UTC
Edit 2:



In Deuteronomy 32:43 in the Septuagint Greek Mss., this is where Paul was quoting the Hebrews passage from...



Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him



This verse literally says “let all the angels of God bow down to him” Which is what proskuneo literally means.



Bowing down to does not automatically mean worship, even if they are bowing down to Jehovah.



Bowing down to someone basically means to be in subjection to, to pay homage to.



http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=4352



1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence

2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence

3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication

a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank

1) to the Jewish high priests

2) to God

3) to Christ

4) to heavenly beings

5) to demons



The angels are in subjection to Jehovah,



The angels do pay homage to Jehovah,



Now they are commanded to be obedient to Jesus, and to pay homage to Jesus.



This word does not automatically mean “worship” or even “obeisance”.





The Greek word rendered “worship” at Hebrews 1:6 is pro•sky•ne΄o. This Greek word is also used at Psalm 97:7 in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew sha•hhah΄. What is the sense of these Hebrew and Greek terms?



Sha•hhah΄ means basically “to bow down.” (Prov. 12:25) Such bowing might be done as an act of respect toward another human, as to a king (1 Sam. 24:8; 2 Sam. 24:20) or a prophet. (2 Ki. 2:15) Abraham bowed down to the Canaanite sons of Heth from whom he sought to buy a burial place. (Gen. 23:7) Isaac’s blessing on Jacob called for national groups and Jacob’s own “brothers” to bow down to him.—Gen. 27:29; compare 49:8.



The Greek pro•sky•ne΄o corresponds closely with the Hebrew sha•hhah΄ as to conveying the thought of both obeisance to creatures and worship to God or a deity. While the manner of expressing the obeisance is perhaps not so prominent in pro•sky•ne΄o as in sha•hhah΄, where the Hebrew term graphically conveys the thought of prostration or bowing down, some lexicographers suggest that originally the Greek term did emphatically portray this idea.



This is the same word used at Rev 3:9 where unfaithful Jews will worship (KJB) or bow down to faithful Christians.



The context of Heb 1:6 HAS TO AGREE WITH THE CONTEXT OF Hebrew’s chapter 1 and the rest of the book of Hebrews.



What Paul is telling us is that The Glorified Image of God (Heb 1:3) has been given authority over the angels. Something he never had before. (Heb 1:4; Phil 2:5-11).



Today even the angels have to worship Jehovah through Jesus



As to the Book of Enoch, and the angel Gabriel, I’m sorry you have to go beyond the bible to support your false teachings.





===============



Edit:



Tim:



Context determines the correct understanding of words:



Fast can mean both “to move quickly” or “not able to move at all”



The cargo was held fast to the deck, doesn’t mean the cargo was moving quickly while not moving at all.



It does not mean both at the same time.



Heb 1:6 is it obeisance or worship?



Context points to obeisance because Jesus is part of creation. (Heb 1:9, “Your God anointed you”



Your quote: In verse 4 it says He has become 'MUCH' more superior than the angels,



I would like to point out “HAS BECOME much more superior than the angels.”



This means that prior to his being anointed (Heb 1:9) Jesus was not ‘much more superior than the angels’



When the bible talks about Gabriel and Michael, this was prior to Jesus being anointed and being made MUCH MORE than the angels.



Please show me the scripture that says Gabriel is an archangel.



Why do Michael / Jesus receive obeisance?



Because Jehovah gave Jesus a name that is above all other created ones.



Heb 1:4 “to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.” (the other angels)



To inherit something means to receive something you didn’t own before.



It is something given to you.



When you ignore context you can prove anything you want.



I only stopped at chapter 2 of Hebrews,



The entire book shows Jesus is the High Priest, the Apostle of God (Heb 3:1)



and Not equal to his Father.





=====



According to the book of Hebrews,



Who is Jesus and what is his Relationship with God?



1:1God speaks to us,



1:2by means of His Son (a male offspring / progeny = ‘a result of creative effort, product’

The American Heritage Dictionary (TAHD))



who He (God) appointed, (Lit. He put)



through (#1223 channel) whom He made the world (Jesus is not the source of creation but the channel, or master worker, (Prov. 8:30, My NASB cross references Prov. 8:22 with Jesus at Rev 3:14) also see Jn 1:3 (#1223 channel))



1:3Jesus is the radiance of God’s glory. (Jesus is not the source of God’s glory, but is the visible manifestation, why? Because Jesus is)



the exact representation of God’s nature

(Representation (N-W) ‘a : an artistic likeness or image’ of God’s nature,

(2 Cor 4:4 if we believe Jesus is more than an image; we have been blinded by Satan)



Nature (TAHD) = ‘character of an individual’, Jesus is an image of God’s nature or character

Jn 8: 28, 29; 14:10;) What Jesus sees his Father do, Jesus imitates his Father.



Interesting side point Representation can also means:

(TAHD) = ‘serving as an official delegate, agent or spokesman’ (see 1:2 ‘appointed’)

Jesus serves as Jehovah’s appointed spokesman (Jn 1:1, 2);



sat down at the right hand of God (an important position but is lesser than God

(N-W) b : an indispensable person 2 b : a place of honor 3 : chiefly relied on)



The true meaning of the following verses become evident when you understand



Job 1: 6 “Now it came to be the day when the sons* of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah,” *“Sons of.” Heb., beneh´; LXX, “angels.” This book was written to “Hebrews” who had this understanding.



1:4became better than the angels (How and why did he become better? Because he is God,

NO, because he inherited a more excellent name than they (Vs 4 starts off showing how Jesus is better than his angelic brothers, How? Because Jesus inherits or is given a better name than the other sons of God)



1:5which of the angels (or other sons) did (God) say “You are my Son?

(To Jesus His Firstborn (see 1:2 & 6)



BLB: blueletterbible.org - strongs= #4416



#4416, 1) the firstborn

a) of man or beast

b) of Christ, the first born of all creation



Firstborn = (N-W) first brought forth : eldest

Jesus is Jehovah’s oldest or eldest Son.



today I begotten you (NASB)

(Begotten (TAHD) = ‘to cause to exist, produced’ (Prov. 8:21, 22; see 3:1))



1:6brings the firstborn into the world. (Because Jesus was the channel that Jehovah used to create the world (1:2), Jesus had to have been begotten prior to the creation. (Col 1:15,16) Long before being born on earth, - long before being anointed in 29 C.E.)



angel (or other sons) “worship” or “do obeisance” to Jesus?



(As we’ve seen thus far – Jesus is a creation and as such is not to be worshiped.

As firstborn, appointed by God, he is entitled to Homage)



(BLB #4352 1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence

2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence

3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication

a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank

.

side point: To honor is NOT the same as worship.



(2 Kings 2:15 footnote NWT Bible “They . . . bowed down (to Elisha).”

Gr., pro•se•ky´ne•san. Compare Heb 1:6 ftn. Gr., pro•sky•ne•sa´to•san;)



By honoring a human judge we are also honoring Jehovah, but we are not worshiping the human judge. (Matt 15:3-6; Rom 13:7)



If we are ordered to honor humans, how much more so should we honor Jesus?



In 1611 KJV, worship meant “to a physical bowing or prostration” today it means “a mental state of reverence.” Truth in Translation (TIT)



Homage (TAHD) = ‘special honor or respect shown publicly’





1:7Contrasts angels with the role God has given Jesus (1:2,4)



1:8The understanding of this verse has to agree with verse 1:9



1:9“Your God” has anointed you. (The God of Jesus. anoint = christ = messiah = a person set apart for high office, especially a priest or a king. Harper’s Bible Dictionary (HBD) According to the basic meaning – all anointed Christians are “christs, persons set apart for high office, as priests and kings reigning with Jesus. (Rev 5:9, 10))



above your companions or partners (1 Chron 29:23) These companions can’t be God, Himself, because Jesus’ God anointed him. (Ps 110:3) In Ps 45:7 it is David, being compared to Solomon, and the other Kings of Israel. In Heb 1:9, the context shows that Jesus’ companions or partners are Jehovah’s other sons, the angels. (Job 1:6))



1:10Christ lays foundation of the earth. (master worker)



1:11Including vs 12, Hyperbole, (N-W): extravagant exaggeration



1:13to which one of the angels / sons? sit at God’s right hand ?

(again His Firstborn, the only begotten (1:2, 6))



1:14are not all spirits (including Jesus (1 Cor 15:45)) sent forth ? (Gal 4:4)



inherit salvation, (Why must Christians inherit salvation? Because it is something we do not possess, and we receive it from our Father, Just as Jesus inherited a better name.



2:4while God joined in bearing witness (according to the law witnesses had to be two separate individuals to prove a point (Matt 3:17; Jn 8:17,18))



2:5not to angels (Jehovah did not subject all creation to just any son, but again to His Firstborn, eldest Son)



2:9God can never be ‘lower’ than his sons the angels,

Jesus suffered & tasted death, (also something God can never do.)



2:11Christians become brothers to Christ (does this make man equal to God? In Israel (Hebrews) brothers are equal except for the firstborn, who received double honor in the inheritance. Christians are adopted as sons making them ‘brothers’ to Christ receiving the same reward that Jesus received.)



2:12Who’s name does Jesus declare in the middle of the congregation?

(quote of Ps 22:22,23, Jehovah)



2:13Jesus only has what God gives him.



2:14As God’s representative (1:2) and eldest Son (1:6) Jesus left heaven and became a man.

-17Equal to God ? (NO equal to Adam (Rom 5:19; 1 Cor 15:21,22, 45))



2:17If God died for us, then the sacrifice would have been greater than the Law required, becoming ‘a soul for an eye’. (If only the ‘man’ Jesus died, and only the ‘man’ Jesus was resurrected, then the ‘man’ Jesus is in heaven equal to God. (Heb 13:8))



2:18What test did God have to do? Would God remain loyal, faithful, and obedient to himself?

What would have happened if God had failed that test (see 3:2, 6)



(The entire book of Hebrews shows that Jesus is in subjection to his God and Father.)



Matt 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”



Jesus rebuked Satan in the name of Jehovah 'Satan's God'

and also Jesus' God. (Jn 17:3)



Jude 9 But when Mi´cha·el the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: “May Jehovah rebuke you.”



At the time of Moses, Jesus or Michael had not been anointed as King of God's Kingdom.



At the time of Moses, Jesus or Michael had not be appointed to judge the living and the dead.



Jesus is the only Begotten Son, begotten comes from "solo generated" in Greek, used to discribe a birth of a child.



Jesus was created solely by Jehovah, then He use His Firstborn as a master worker to create everything else.


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
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