Hey Mormons, I'm curious about this..?

Question

When Joseph Smith and his witnesses saw the gold plates from Cumorrah, why didn't someone at least make a copy of the holy writing or take a rubbing from a few? Also I can't find any record of the sizes of the plates. I mean this was pretty hot stuff, so why did no one bother to record these details?
This slackness places the whole physical existence of the plates in doubt.

Answer 1

Here's a great article that might help:



The golden plates were just so — tangible, physical and, well, real. But just how big were they? How much did they weigh? How many plates were there? What were they made of?



Joseph Smith wrote in the Wentworth Letter that the plates were "six inches by eight inches long." Martin Harris and David Whitmer remembered 7 by 8 inches. Joseph Smith wrote that the plates were "something near six inches in thickness." Harris remembered it being about four inches.



Take Joseph Smith's estimate (sorry, Martin) of 6 inches by 8 inches by 6 inches, and that gives us 288 cubic inches. Metallurgist Read H. Putnam, in an Improvement Era article in September 1966, wrote that a "solid block of gold totaling 288 cubic inches would weigh a little over 200 pounds." But, of course, the plates were not a solid block.



The individual plates were not perfectly shaped. "The unevenness left by the hammering and air spaces between the separate plates would reduce the weight to probably less than 50 percent of the solid block," Putnam wrote.



That gives us about 100 pounds. Not impossible to move around, but still pretty heavy.



But the plates were not likely made of pure gold. The Book of Mormon merely says they were made of "ore" 1 Nephi 19:1. (See also Mormon 8:5.)



The Eight Witnesses described them as having "the appearance of gold."



Pure gold would be too soft to use anyway.



"The metal would need to be soft enough at the surface to accept the engraver's tool, yet firm enough in the center to keep the plate from distortion under the pressure; it would also have to be smooth enough for the lines and figures to retain their proportions," Putnam wrote. In other words, the plates, if they were to match their description, had to be an alloy.



As it turns out, ancient Americans used an alloy of gold and copper — the two colored metals. The Spaniards called this metal alloy "tumbaga." Properly made, a plate of this alloy would have the right properties for engraving and would also look like ordinary gold. But it would also weigh less. Putnam estimated a solid block of the ideal engraving-friendly copper/gold alloy would weigh about 107 pounds. Take half of that away to account for air between the plates and "the weight of the stack of plates would be about 53 pounds."



Putnam wrote that the weight would be higher as the ratio of gold to copper went up.



Just for contrast, a block of sand that size would be about 17 pounds, a solid block of granite about 29 pounds.



It shouldn't be a surprise then to learn that witnesses put the weight of the plates at about 60 pounds. Harris said "from forty to sixty lbs." William Smith said "about sixty pounds."



William Smith also said the plates were "a mixture of gold and copper" — the precise alloy that Putnam found was used by ancient Americans.



Putnam calculated that each plate could have been .02 inches thick (average copier paper is five times thinner or about .004 inches thick). Emma Smith said, "They seemed to be pliable like thick paper, and would rustle with a metallic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book."



By judging how much space a plate would take in a stack, Putnam deduced it would be about 20 plates to the inch. "The unsealed portion (one-third of the whole) would then consist of 40 plates or 80 sides."



Only 80 sides for the whole Book of Mormon — plus the lost Book of Lehi? In an April 1923 issue of the "Improvement Era," Janne M. Sjodahl proved that 14 pages of the Book of Mormon could be written in Hebrew in a space that was only 7 by 8 inches. "That is to say, the entire Book of Mormon … could be written on 40 3/7 pages — 21 plates in all."



John Gee, senior research fellow at the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship at BYU, reexamined Sjodahl's article in 2001 and concluded that the small characters used in Sjodahl's experiment are similar in size to actual Hebrew characters engraved on ancient objects found in Israel.



When you take into consideration that the plates were engraved in space-saving reformed Egyptian, because, as Moroni wrote, "if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew," there appears to be room to spare (See Mormon 9:33).



Just don't drop them on your foot.

Answer 2

It appears that God never intended for people to have physical evidence for the restoration of the gospel. This would destroy the need to rely upon God for knowledge thus destroying the need to develop faith sufficent to depend upon God.



However, Mormonism is the only religion where each major event was accompanied by witnesses. For example, 11 other people testified of seeing and holding the plates and seeing the angel who presented them. Joseph Smith was was not alone when angels came to restore the Aaronic priesthood and later the melchizedek priesthood. Also, Joseph Smith was not alone when Elijah appeared to him. There were various people involved. So if you want to call Joseph Smith a con man, you will have to call a number of others con men also. Some of these people left the church, some of which returned, but none denied what they had seen. So we are left to determine truth by listening to the testimonies of lots of witnesses and God.



Other religions who claimed to have prophets (such as Ellen White) never had other witnesses.



Here are some testimonies of the Book of Mormon:



http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/thrwtnss

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/eghtwtns

Answer 3

They did make a copy. It is called the Anthon transcript, since Harris first took the copy to a Professor Anthon, one of two or three Egyptian experts of the day to verify that the characters were authentic. He came back quite satisfied and agreed to mortgage his farm to pay for the printing of the book. Since then several other artifacts have been uncovered with the same writing, including two engraved stones, and a few clay seals that were discovered in a crypt. Joseph, as well as others, have described the plates in detail. Martin Harris said the plates were about 7 inches by 8 inches, and four inches thick altogether. I personally have seen the first box where they were kept. It wasn't very big - no more than five inches from top to bottom. Joseph believed that the book weighed about 60 or 70 pounds. The plates had a goldlike look to them and may have been made out of a Mayan alloy which they called Tumbaga. It produced a beautiful gold sheen without the weight of pure gold.

For photographs of some of the artifacts that have been found with the writing, see Ainsworth's book, The Lives and Travels of Mormon and Moroni.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_plates



"I know of a surety that the work is true. For did I not at one time hold the plates on my knee an hour-and-a-half, whilst in conversation with Joseph, when we went to bury them in the woods, that the enemy might not obtain them? Yes I did. And as many of the plates as Joseph Smith translated I handled with my hands, plate after plate."

-Martin Harris



Martin Harris was accused of denying his previous testimony, but he publically refuted the rumors and maintained that he had seen the plates. This is his dying testimony:

"The Book of Mormon is no fake. I know what I know. I have seen what I have seen and I have heard what I have heard. I have seen the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon is written. An angel appeared to me and others and testified to the truthfulness of the record, and had I been willing to have perjured myself and sworn falsely to the testimony I now bear I could have been a rich man, but I could not have testified other than I have done and am now doing for these things are true."

Answer 4

Might I suggest that there is a slackness to your approach to gaining knowledge, and to your use of simple research tools, like the internet? There are numerous books on this and similar subjects, all meticulously researched and sourced. But you instead decide to ignore them, and to make your determination based on complete ignorance.



You could easily gain much information on this subject by going to http://www.Mormon.org you could start with the chat feature so that you get a live representative of THE Church Of JESUS CHRIST Of Latter Day Saints, and they will direct you from there where to go, and how to get further information on this subject.



I will only add this point, to what others have already written on this subject.



To put the situation into perspective, it Joseph Smiths stature himself should be considered. When he was grown into manhood, he was six foot two inches tall. Furthermore he had lived the life of Farmer, and his primary work had farm work. This included chopping trees to make log cabins, lifting rocks, digging ditches, building fences, and so forth and so on. To put it simply he was ripped.



No one who wrestled him, ever recorded that they beat him. Joseph Smith was very strong and very agile, much like the cage match wrestlers that you see wrestling in the UFC, or like the wrestlers who wrestle in the Olympics or in other competitive venues.



As such, lifting a hundred pounds, and carrying a hundred pounds, would not have been impossible. I have lifted that much when I was in the military, and close to that much weight while camping, and while it is true, most people could not handle that much weight because they are too soft, for Joseph Smith, it would not have been impossible.



Furthermore, most of the time, when Joseph Smith was transporting the Golden (alloy) Plates, he used a wagon. But if he had to, there is little doubt considering his size, strength, conditioning, and agility, he could have certainly been able to have carried the Gold Plates weighing about a hundred pounds. And if you consider how much Joseph Smith would have been strengthened by God, this is hardly a rational objection at all.



If you have seen a cheer leader, or a dancer, being lifted by another, consider how much more the person being lifted weighed, compared to the Golden (alloy) Plates. Or consider a fireman, or certain workers at factories, who lift hundred pound sacks of material routinely, and do so constantly for eight or more hours a day. Or consider someone in the military that will put someone on their shoulders and carry their comrade to safety, often doing so for many miles, perhaps even for many days.



The only people that object to the size and weight of The Golden (alloy) plates, are people who work in office buildings at desk jobs all day, and preachers from the South East part of the United States, who wouldn't lift a feather, or do any sort of honest work, to save their life.

Answer 5

@Publius Just so you know the Original manuscripts for each of the N.T. books are in the Vatigam vaults as well with other writtings the church might not have agreed with, JUST SO YOU KNOW!!!

OH YE OF LITTLE FAITH!!

http://www.vatican.va/library_archives/vat_secret_archives/index.htm



@ASKER, after 116 pages of the Book of Lehi got lost, i think Joseph Smith would not allow anyone to get a hold of the plates or make a rubbing, he claimed that since they were gold, gold diggeres were trying to get a hold of them.

Answer 6

A rubbing, a consultation with an expert in ancient writing or metallurgy. Smith claimed he showed it to 11 people, none of whom had any training to help them determine whether the plates were a fraud.



Later, there were witnesses who swore to veracity of the Strangite plates and the Kinderhook plates too, both of which still exist and are obvious frauds.



Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Fail.



The number of gold plates required to hold a 500 page book would be enormous. The engraving on the bottom plates would be crushed by the weight of the top plates. The biggest other known writing on metal plates consists of 6 small plates. Suddenly Mormons claim there were hundreds of plates.



Don't get me started on 'Reformed Egyptian'.

Answer 7

God didn't want it done. There was too much opportunity for people to try to use it against the church and Joseph Smith.

Answer 8

I believe Martin Harris tried that, and the manuscripts got stolen, so those 116 pages that would have been in the Book of Mormon were taken out of it, as the thieves would have slightly changed them and used them as "proof" that the Book of Mormon would be fake.



The size of the plates are probably recorded somewhere in the 7 volumes of "History of the Church," if not in the Book of Mormon itself (Nephi probably wrote a description.)



The plates were then taken away by an angel when they were done being translated into the Book of Mormon, hence why they have no "physical" position on the earth.

Answer 9

I'm so sorry, but those people Joseph Smith claimed he "showed" the plates to, only saw them through a "spiritual eye"--- through imagination, not physical eyes to metal. Quite a few later declared they had never seen them even that way. As a matter of curious fact, almost every single one of these folks eventually were "excommunicated" from Joseph Smith's church for one reason or another. Just so you are aware.... if for any future reference.



"It is a matter of speculation whether these were actual metal plates, perhaps manufactured by Smith himself, or whether witnesses who claimed to have seen them based their testimony on what they had seen in visions."

----http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_plates



To answer your question, it wouldn't have behooved Joseph Smith to do so the first time. How could he have known he wasn't going to be able to "keep" the plates here? He learned though. Quickly. The second time Joseph Smith got his hands on "scriptures", were what he deemed the scrolls of the "Book of Father Abraham". He copied down pictures from these "holy" scrolls, then "translated" the Egyptian text which was canonized as "scripture" in 1880 and added to a book called "The Pearl of Great Price", a "holy" book to the LDS still used today.



"Joseph Smith ostensibly translated the majority of the Book of Abraham text in July and a few days in November 1835 and did some minor revisions in March 1842. By October, he had also begun "...translating an alphabet to the Book of Abraham, and arranging a grammar of the Egyptian language as practiced by the ancients."

-----http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham



These scrolls of Joseph Smith, bought off a traveling salesman, were eventually found to be pilfered Egyptian funeral scrolls after being examined by modern, professional, non-Mormon Egyptologists who can now actually read and interpret Egyptian hieroglyphics. The pictures? Precisely matched other pictures of the Egyptian burial god "Anubis". The scrolls were the "Embalming Egyptians for Dummies" manual of their day.

Answer 10

Joseph and Emma moved into the small house, and Isaac expected that Joseph would help with the work on his farm. Instead, Joseph kept himself occupied with some mysterious indoor activity. One day Isaac decided to investigate what was going on in the small house, and paid a visit to his son- in-law.



Isaac found Joseph sitting at a table with a hat over his face, uttering long Biblical phrases. Emma sat behind a curtain, hidden from Joseph, while she wrote down the words Joseph was speaking. On the table-top in front of Joseph sat some square object concealed by a cloth. When Joseph removed his hat from his face, Isaac could see two stones in the hat, similar to the stones Joseph had used in divining the location of the "buried Spanish treasure."



Alarmed, Isaac demanded an explanation of this strange activity. The explanation that Joseph and Emma gave him only alarmed Isaac more. They told Isaac that Joseph had seen a vision of an angel back in Palmyra. The angel had led Joseph to a place which Joseph called Cumorah, a hill near Palmyra. There, digging in the spot the angel indicated, Joseph had found a set of golden plates comprising a holy book, called the Book of Mormon. The book was written in symbols which Joseph called "reformed Egyptian," but with the gold plates were two stones, with which Joseph could decipher the ancient symbols on the gold plates .



Joseph told Isaac that the gold plates were right in front of them on the table, in a box covered by a cloth. It was not necessary for Joseph to see the plates in order to decipher them. He could read the plates, understand them, and translate them into English, by gazing into the stones. However, in order to see into the stones, he had to shut out all extraneous light. Therefore, he put the stones into his hat and covered his face with the hat.



When Isaac asked to see the golden plates, Joseph refused permission. Joseph said that, if anyone besides himself looked at the golden plates, it would mean instant death for the person.



So far as Isaac could tell, no change had occurred in Joseph since his treasure-hunting days. Isaac later said, "The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stones in his hat, and his hat over his face."



Isaac failed to notice that, although Joseph's occult techniques had not changed, the purpose of Joseph's life had taken a new direction. Formerly, Joseph had been looking for gold. Now, he seemed indifferent to money. As described by Joseph, the gold plates he had found at Cumorah were worth millions of dollars; yet Joseph valued only the message engraved on them.





Find out more about Joseph Smith

in this controversial biography.

Isaac felt certain that there were no gold plates, and that Joseph was plotting some elaborate fraud. But Emma remained loyal to her husband, dutifully taking down Joseph's dictation, hour after hour, day after day. The words Joseph spoke through his hat told the story of Jewish families which had migrated to America from Israel in the seventh century before Christ, becoming the ancestors of the American Indians. According to the scriptures which Joseph was translating, Christ himself had come to America before his ascension.



During his work of translation, Joseph received some financial support from a few acquaintances who believed in the importance of his task. One man mortgaged his farm to support Joseph. The man's wife, who considered Joseph's scriptures a hoax, was so incensed that she left her husband.

Answer 11

Was their existence ever NOT in doubt?

Answer 12

"Christian Apologist" sighting, Red Alert.

Answer 13

I cannot see why anyone would want to believe this sort of thing if they have studied the inspired word of God in the Scriptures. To me it just seems like a copycat job of bits of Scripture and fiction all stuck together.