Dishonest statements about Messianic Jews....?

Question

I was wondering if anyone else on yahoo answers is noticing the unchecked false statements made about Messianic Jews.

Case in point....

"Secondly, they infiltrate synagogues and attempt to proselytise. This is disrespectful (to say the very least) and insulting to a group that doesn't proselytise. Don't you think we should be able to simply be Jews in our synagogues?"

I have been a Messianic Jew for 26+ years. I know Messianic Jews across the country. In all these years, I have NEVER spoken to a fellow Messianic Jew who attends a traditional Synagogue with the only goal of to proselytise. NEVER.

I personally attend with my family (wife and children) most every year for Rosh HaShana services and have NEVER EVER said anything while there.

Do you understand that those who know us realize that all the statements you make on YA are false. You may make "converts" with those who do not know us, but that is the price we have to pay for ignorance about us.

And I have spoken with many Jewish people who can't believe the responses that they have gotten from their traditional Jewish brethren and this has made them grow even closer to the Messiah and the faith.

And additionally - we NEVER claim to be a branch of Judaism. We do NOT claim to follow Rabbinic Judaism. Messianic Jews claim to follow God and the Messiah of IsraeI.

So I restate my question....

Is anyone else on yahoo answers noticing the unchecked false statements made about Messianic Jews here?

Answer 1

My experiences are very much like those mentioned by Abiyah. I left my fellowship for similar reasons as she did and I meet with close friends on Sabbath, to study and worship.



Those claiming to be "Jews" here on Yahoo, are not like the ones I know in my community. As I've said before, the ones I know locally are very accepting of those of us who believe differently. Yahoo has it's own band of "Jews" whose only mission in life is to attack Jews in Yahoo who love the Messiah.



I don't come here to proselytize, I only come to answer questions. And even that is stymied by those who choose to jump in and have their hate-fest at our expense. We are grateful that they can't take away our joy in Yeshua HaMashiach!

Answer 2

Can you link to the actual quote of the person who said this?

For the record, I would never claim that "Messianic Jews" try to infiltrate synagogues because they would never succeed.

I have only read of a single incident where "Messianic Jews" joined an Orthodox synagogue until they were outed. They did not try to prosletise.



If you are saying that "Messianic Judaism" is not a Judaism I would agree. Then why are you using the word "Judaism"? It is a weird form of Protestant Christianity. It should be using "Christian" somewhere in the title.



Update: Alon Yoav supplied the link of the incident I had read about. Quite frankly, I do not know what was going on in their minds.

Answer 3

"Do you understand that those who know us realize that all the statements you make on YA are false. You may make "converts" with those who do not know us, but that is the price we have to pay for ignorance about us. "



You are over generalizing there a bit as it is more than a stretch to say that "all" the statements made are false. I have been on both sides of this issue and while I do not know you personally I do know Messianics. Have I noticed inaccurate claims made against "Messianic Judaism"? Sure. I have also seen inaccurate claims made against Judaism by "Messianic Jews" (as well as by the rest of Christians), inaccurate claims made against "Messianic Jews" by other Christians, inaccurate claims made against Jehovah's Witnesses by other Christians, inaccurate claims made against Catholics by Protestants and vice versa, and on and on and on.



I have to admit that I find you to be one of the less obnoxious "Messianic Jews" on Y/A. Maybe you are correct when you say you have never done these things, and just maybe nobody in your congregation does these things but lets not pretend that it isn't happening. There are way too many Messianics that I know, both here and in person, that have worked very hard for the bad reputation that they have.





Added: Now this is rich, looks like you are being attacked by a fellow Messianic over terminology and calendar issues, among other things.

Ex Messie.

Answer 4

"I have NEVER spoken to a fellow Messianic Jew who attends a traditional Synagogue with the only goal of to proselytise."



Who's said it was their ONLY goal? Seriously. I'm sure they have others. Can you honestly say that you've NEVER met a "Messianic" who prosletyized in a synagogue? Have you met enough "Messianics" to say that it doesn't happen?



"we NEVER claim to be a branch of Judaism"



Many of you claim to be Jewish. Some of you claim to be 'the real Jews'. Many of you present your views as if they were accurate representations of authentic Judaism.



And there is at least one person in your midst (with several accounts) who trolls both sides. You might want to police that person yourself if s/he's misrepresenting you.



What you're doing in this post though is playing semantic games and making overly specific statements which dodge the reality of what's going on.

Answer 5

Anyone anting to see statements from "messianic jewish" websites about the centrality of converting Jews to "messianic judaism" will find a nice set of quotes here: http://messianicsexposed.com/2010/06/14/tactic-misrepresentation-were-not-missionaries/



Yep, they love to try and claim that they aren't into convertign Jews, but their websites state something very different!



Nor is it just away from here that such deception is seen! On this question here on Y!A somebody asked for a place to study Judaism in Israel- the "messianic jew" (Using the name Israel here) tries to get them to go to a "messianic jewish" recruitment center, never mentioning that it is not a Jewish place and is rejected by every stream of Judaism: https://answersrip.com/question/index?qid=20100709124414AAcUyLO



As for "messianic jews" dishonestly infiltrating synagogues, here is one example:

http://jewishmag.com/24mag/feldman/feldman.htm



Heh, as for the lie that "messianic jews" do not claim to be Jewish, seems that the "messianic jewish" organization calling itself the "Jerusalem Council" states that they are an ORTHODOX JEWISH organization http://jerusalemcouncil.org/

Answer 6

First of all your question, statement, Complaint gives you away.



Let us look at the evidence



You attend Traditional synagogues on Rosh HaShana. Where do you find the Term Rosh Hashana in the scripture to describe the day of blowing? NOWHERE.



You attend Traditional Synagogue, In which pagan Idolatry is practiced and there is No mention of Yeshua or his Saving work. The question has to be asked why? Why not visit your Neighborhood Baptist Church on Pentecost? Or are you the brand of Messianic Jew who blindly follow what the Rabbi's say in contradiction to the scripture and strictly keep Sivan 6 as Pentecost? Where does the scripture say to keep Sivan 6 as Pentecost? Nowhere.



You Practice the Idolatry of the Rabbinics in your Churches You call you leaders Rabbi in direct violation to Yeshua's command You cover your head according to Jewish Custom when 1 Corinthians clearly shows it is a shame to you but following Rabbinacal Judaism seems more important to you then the Apostles words.



And you know what I mean when I say Idolatry. This parading of the Torah around and kissing it. You know as well as I do that if what was carted around was a cross in say a catholic church and people knelt and paid homage to it and kissed it you would be screaming Idolatry. You are no less pagan than the Sunday go to meeting churches you came out of.



You cite rote prayers weekly week after week in direct violation of what Yeshua says.



How do I know this.. I was a Messianic Jew for about 2 years before I went to Jerusalem for the feast. While there I was at the wall praying and it struck me. It was as clear as if Yeshua had been standing there chiding me. What are you doing Dan this is not what I want Look around you at all this idolatry. This is all done for show to impress men repent and return to me stop following men and their traditions.



One has to question why you try to act like Rabbinic Jews when You are not. I have heard the Leaders of congregations because I was one, in a district planning meeting discuss how we can reach out to our Jewish brethren by making our congregations as much like a traditional synagogue as possible.



Hypocrisy.. You don't know what you are talking about. You must be part of the unwashed uniformed masses because that is exactly the purpose or pretending to be something you are not to win Jewish souls to Messiah.



It is sneaky underhanded and dishonest.

Answer 7

there are a mode of causes. i'll concentration on the idea Christianity has that Jesus grow to be the son of God. in the beginning, the followers of Jesus were Jews, and they idea Jesus grow to be the messiah that Scripture said, and that he could win a conflict adverse to Rome (e.g., is two:3), retake the completed of the Holy Land for Jews and the lost sheep of the abode of Israel (e.g., Is 11:12), and damage pagan idols and idolism, and sit down as king on the throne of his ancestor, David (examples, Ezek 37:16-22; Is 11:13). yet then, Jesus died without relaxing those prophecies. His followers were taken aback and lost for a lengthy time period, and some believed he could upward push from the useless and end all contained in the lifetimes of those who had commonly used him at the same time as he grow to be alive. although, because there is not any prophecy of this going on, many Jews left the idea in Jesus and appeared elsewhere. This did not contain replacing decrease back to Judaism with the aid of the indisputable fact that they had by no potential left Judaism. Then Paul appeared, preaching a gospel very diverse than the only Jesus preached. Jesus taught a turning in route of God with the middle somewhat than purely following regulations and guidelines by potential of rote, yet without faith in God. Paul taught such issues as a idea in Jesus as a god-in-the-flesh (Colossians 2:9) and Jesus because the (literal) son of God. Jews knew that all Jews are ALREADY "the sons of God" (Exodus 4:22), yet Paul meant it actually, as if there grow to be some courting between God and Jesus that had no position in Judaism, yet grow to be trouble-free contained in the pagan religions of the days of Paul (Hercules and Zeus, operating example). This grow to be a change fromj what Jesus taught, and led to an uproar from God-fearing Jews who could no longer settle for those forms of ameliorations, and believers in Jesus both left Christianity to go back to Judaism, or left Judaims to grow to be Christians. The Jews (for his or her very own section), decreed that all those who believes in Jesus as god were apostates from Judaism, and it truly is a range that has remained on the books (because it were) ever because. This regulation grow to be no longer new nor an synthetic regulation; apparently in Exodus and Deuteronomy, and also you are able to note of the sections of Scripture when I inform you the regulation seems contained in the ten Commandments, Exodus 20 and Deut 5. accordingly, "Messianic Jews" are considered Christians, no longer Jews.

Answer 8

There are honest statements & dishonest statements.



I have been in both kinds of groups & some proselytize & others don't. For various reasons I have left these groups & now just meet with my family on the Sabbath & Appointed Feasts of YHVH.

I realize where you are coming from but have to agree with Tzadiq on many of his comments.

As the Messianic movement is fairly new 30+ years it has a long way to go & there are a lot of differing ideas on how things should be done.



I have noticed that Jews are not very nice here on yahoo, the Jews I know in real life are much better.

Answer 9

"And additionally - we NEVER claim to be a branch of Judaism."



Then why are you called "Messianic Judaism" then? You seem to be arguing yourself that your sect's name is misleading.



Why not rename yourselves into something more honest: Christianity. Why exactly do you object to being called Christians?

Answer 10

If you were washed in the blood of Christ you wouldn't be concerned with whether or not a believer had Jewish blood or not or convincing people who are a Jew. All believers have the same blood. Sour grapes is what I see here from a Judaizing cult that preys on believers and unbelieving Jews. You don't really bring Jews to know Jesus if you lie about Jews and Christians. You bring people to Satan the ruler of this world instead of to Christ, the King of Kings.



What I think you don't care about or truly know is the Word of God uncorrupted.



We have former Messianic Jews in our church and since we found out about them and their methods there not welcome to preach anymore. I had to put my profile on private and close my mail because of hate mail from deceivers who professed "Yeshua" and called Christian "pagan".



They show ignorance of the Word when they ignore that one who follows the Christ is a Christian

"And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." (Acts 11:26)



If you were really a Jew who is now under the Grace of Lord Jesus, you would know His Word on the matter.

"We [Jews who have been born again] have been released from the Law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code" (Rom. 7:6).



"Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Rm. 10:4); "The Law and the prophets were until John [the Baptizer]" (Lk. 16:16a); "The Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (Jn. 1:17).



"If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15). Jesus said to keep His commandments, NOT keep the Mosaic Law.

"Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those who eat them" (Heb.13:9).

The apostle Paul, a Jew said, "I MYSELF AM NOT UNDER THE LAW" (1 Cor. 9:20).

"The Law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal. 3:24-25).

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:28).



If you were a believer of the Messiah you would not be focused on disbelieving Jews but displaying the Grace and Mercy of our Lord Jesus.

False doctrine is the doctrine of demons and it is working to divide people and create hate in influencing dear brothers and sisters in Christ



Christians under the New Testament of Christ have a much higher calling to holiness than the Old Testament under the Law of Moses



Funny how both Orthodox Jews and washed in the blood Christians know you aren't really either one. You haven't proven your case in point is a lie about Messianic Jews.

I know that one day they will also know who Jesus really is, but in the meantime, a believer doesn't lie that he's following the Law of Moses to convince them to come to the Law of Christ. Christ is not a pagan word. If you’re ashamed of it you’re ashamed of those who could be your brothers and sisters in Christ

Answer 11

Are Messianic Jews Jewish?



No. A Jew who accepts Christianity might call himself a “Jewish Christian,”

but he is no longer a Jew[1]. He can no longer even be counted as part of a

Jewish congregation[2].

Conversion to another faith is an act of religious treason in Judaism. It is one of

the worst possible sins that a Jew can ever commit. Along with murder and

incest, it is one of the three cardinal sins which may not be violated even

under pain of death. [3] It’s a big deal.

Rabbi Moses Isserles demanded a formal conversion back to Judaism for those who converted out of Judaism but who then wanted to return to Judaism. (One who practices idolatry denies the whole of the Torah.)[4]

He demanded ritual immersion (mikveh) and repentance before a court of three (beit din). You will see this also in other Responsa literature: Radbaz, Responsa III, 415; Moses Isserles to Yoreh Deah 268.12; and Hoffman, Melamed Leho-il II, 84.

Maimonides himself wrote that if a Jew converted to Christianity, he or she was no longer a Jew (Yad, loc. cit. 2:5.). Also see Maimonides, Hilchot Mamrim Perek 3, Halacha 1-3, as well as in Maimonides's Mishnah Torah, Avodat Kochavim 2:5.

Rabbi Moses Isserles demanded a formal conversion back to Judaism for those who converted out of Judaism but who then wanted to return to Judaism. He demanded ritual immersion (mikveh) and repentance before a court of three (beit din). You will see this also in other Responsa literature: Radbaz, Responsa III, 415; Moses Isserles to Yoreh Deah 268.12; and Hoffman, Melamed Leho-il II, 84.

Harries, Richard (August 2003). "Should Christians Try to Convert Jews?". After the evil: Christianity and Judaism in the shadow of the Holocaust. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. pp. g. 119. LCCN 2003-273342. ISBN 0199263132. "Thirdly, there is Jews for Jesus or, more generally, Messianic Judaism. This is a movement of people often of Jewish background who have come to believe Jesus is the expected Jewish messiah.…They often have congregations independent of other churches and specifically target Jews for conversion to their form of Christianity."



Kessler, Edward (2005). "Messianic Jews". in Edward Kessler and Neil Wenborn (eds.) (GoogleBooks). A dictionary of Jewish-Christian relations. Cambridge; New York: Cambridge University Press. pp. 292–293. LCCN 2005-012923. ISBN 9780521826921. OCLC 60340826. "From a mainstream Christian perspective Messianic Judaisms can also provoke hostility for misrepresenting Christianity."



Harris-Shapiro, Carol (1999). "Studying the Messianic Jews" (GoogleBooks). Messianic Judaism: a rabbi’s journey through religious change in America. Boston, MA: Beacon Press. pp. g. 3. LCCN 98-54864. ISBN 0807010405. OCLC 45729039. "And while many evangelical Churches are openly supportive of Messianic Judaism, they treat it as an ethnic church squarely within evangelical Christianity, rather than as a separate entity."



In the document ‘What Evangelical Christians should know about Messianic “jews”, Martin Meyer, founder of 'jews' FOR JESUS: reveals:



‘We are an arm of the local **Church**. We are Evangelists. We are accountable to the Church. As we win and ***convert*** Jewish people, we urge them to take their place in a local Evangelical **Church**, or establish a congregation. Our duty is to aid the **Church** at large and to gather in the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.’



- from ‘Holy Terror’ by Conway and Seigelman

Answer 12

Cut this Messianic Jew a break. if he or she wants to follow traditions of the hebrew people, then im flatted.

Answer 13

The Jewish person you quote never said "only" to proselytize, but it an unfortunate fact that Jews have seen Christians posing as Jews to gain membership and/ or seen such individuals proselytize to children or to elderly Jews in the community.

https://answersrip.com/question/index?qid=20130210111429AA6gagF

Compare the answer he quotes to his answer. With his kind of love who needs enemies?

I would even go so far as to suggest to all readers here to inquire of any synagogue " Has your community ever had anyone who claimed to be a Jew they later discovered was actually an adherent of the New Testament /Christianity? Have you had any Christian posing as a Jew try to proselytize in your Jewish community?

Ask any actual synagogue. (asker calls them “traditional”) Because of my challenge we’ll likely some unknown accounts to all the Jewish users here all of a sudden claim to be Jews who haven’t seen this (especially under comments to closed questions), but I know what you’ll find when you ask the actual communities offline. I’d love to ask the congregation where the asker claims he attends Rosh Hashana services. You now say you never claim to be a branch of Judaism yet you insist on calling it "Messianic Judaism". That's deceptive and at the heart of this matter. If your movement didn’t misrepresent itself as Judaism and display behaviors considered egregiously sinful in Judaism while so doing, you’d have no problem with us at all in your choice to worship Jesus as your god.

No one is entitled to redefine Judaism for the world's Jewish people from what God determined in Torah, and any time in Jewish history when any Jews or wicked non Jewish king who took the rule insisted on imposing foreign worship forbidden by God into Jewish life the wicked kings in Tanakh who did so usually brought calamity upon themselves from the hands of the very people whose foreign god they'd adopted in worship.

Jews of different movements may honor our faith in different customs but our beliefs of what Torah says are far more similar than the divides/schisms from within Christianity and even the different Hebrew Christian “Messianic” movements (evidenced in answers below, too)!. The consistent unity of understanding the nature of God in Torah and the purpose of our covenant as expressed by Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist from at least a dozen countries here in YA is very clear evidence of this. We use the same references, support the same beliefs, answers and when we butt heads ( which is often :) ) it isn’t over what the Tanakh says but over how to honor what it says.

We aren't "ignorant" about the movement that has been assaulting Jewish communities and hijacking Jewish identity with increasing escalation and displaying self-righteous entitlement to do so as is evidenced under this question and several responses.

You admit that there are "fellow Messianic Jew (s)" who attend traditional synagogues in your post! If they all believe what they keep posting about us why are they there praying alongside us as Jews when they do not believe what it is WE are praying? Former “messaincis” I’ve read about have said they attended so they could learn more about Jews and Judaism to give a better appearance of being Jews when they spoke to churches. (my blog has links to *their* articles) Besides proselytizing, the appearance of being a Jew to promote that worship of Jesus is acceptable in Judaism is the other major reason THEY have given to be there. I've seen you use the example of Moses offering himself for the sins of Israel as a perfect example of how Jesus as atonement for sin was permissible while you completely omitted that the important part of that Torah narrative was God's ANSWER to Moses request to offer to take on the sins of Israel. God said NO, in no uncertain terms, God said that every person is directly accountable for their own sins and that no one can take upon themselves the sins of another. You claim to follow the God of Israel yet completely misrepresent the lesson of God to Moses and all Israel directly.

If one isn’t about proselytizing why repeatedly ask people to read a set of books whose purpose is to convince Jews to become Christian & that YOU claim "overcome" ALL Jewish OBJECTIONS to Jesus. That isn’t proselytizing? You repeatedly insult correct Jewish answers that have Torah support and have the chutzpah to claim that Jews who refuse to abandon God's covenant don't follow or know God but follow "tradition" instead while you parrot Jewish tradition in outward appearance in lists as if those claims prove you are Jewish. Why attend Rosh Hashanah with these same people whose faith you want to “overcome”?

Answer 14

Dude, if you were all that, you wouldn't be manifesting the mess of even calling Messiah Jesus..You know that ain't the proper name......

Answer 15

My, my! It's not what you profess, but who you possess and who you allow to possess you!



Jesus speaks often of the traditions of men.