Why is that Messianic Jews and other Jews don't get along?

Question

Why is that Messianic Jews and other Jews don't get along?

Answer 1

Mainstream Jews would say that Messianic Jews are being profoundly disrespectful to THEIR religion.

Answer 2

with all due respect, as far as judaism is concerned, messianic jews are apostates and converts to christianity. you can call yourself what you want and consider yourself what you want, but according to judaism, you've left the fold.



EDIT



queen kira, that's total drivel. no jewish rabbi or scholar would dare say any bit of the tanak is to be ignored or hidden... it's just not interpreted or read the way you read it.





the freak:

you say you observe the jewish holidays, but you also participate in communion, which is in a way accepting jesus as deity, accepting the trinity, thus negating the jewish principle that god is one.

you say that judaism would rather accept an "athiest" (should be atheist) or agnostic, than a messianic. not many "atheists" would struggle to be recognized as jews. and they have not actively gone to believe in another god.... so it's still acceptable by judaism.

as to agnostics, judaism encourages questioning, but not apostasy.



edit-edit



remember the story of elijah and the prophets of baal?

that's the guiding principle. the people of israel in those days thought that they were following the israelite religion while at the same time worshipping the baal. as far as judaism is concerned, that is what you're doing.

Answer 3

because most "messianic jews" are just christians pretending to be jews in order to convert jews



see rev 2:9 and rev 3:9



now if a christian is seeking the roots to their religion, ok... but the majority are NOT

Answer 4

answer: Because the majority were never Jewish, did not convert to Judaism and aren't qualified to convert to Judaism.



Just as you aren't. You hold beliefs that are considered blasphemy in Judaism.



Jews rarely tolerate people falsely claiming to be Jews.



EVERY branch of Judaism, the State of Israel, the great Rambam and the US military agree: "Messianic Jews" are NOT Jews.



Disrespectful - twisting and inserting Jesus into Jewish holy days and rituals, falsely calling yourself a Jew, claiming that a Jew can worship someone/something other than G-d, attempting to trick Jews into converting = disrespectful and dishonorable behavior.



In the document ‘What Evangelical Christians should know about Messianic “jews” , Martin Meyer, founder of 'jews' FOR JESUS: reveals:



‘We are an arm of the local **Church**. We are Evangelists. We are accountable to the Church. As we win and ***convert*** Jewish people, we urge them to take their place in a local Evangelical **Church**, or establish a congregation. Our duty is to aid the **Church** at large and to gather in the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.’

Answer 5

Because Messanic "Jews" are a subgroup of evangletical Chrisitans that distain Jews so much, they lie about being Jewish in order to force their Christian Christ ideas onto us. Some are non-Pauline Christians who reject Christian traditions, but have as little respect for Judaism, & practice as little Judaism.



None are Jews, & all are violating core Judaism beliefs. Judaism has so little fixed beliefs, that it's very obvious when some religion is opposite to them:



- Human & human-god sacrifice is forbidden

- Each person is responsible for their own actions.

- People are not born with sin.

- Rituals do NOT define Judaism.

- God is one, abstract, incorporeal, not male or female, can not take human form.

- Blood is forbidden as symbol of God (hence kosher requires not eating blood.)

- Tanakh can not be added to. NT is not part of Judaism.

- Belief in God does not define a Jew (unlike it's centrality in much of Chrisitanity as belief in Jesus). So an atheist or agnostic or person with doubt has not violated Judaism.

- Worshipping another God concept is the highest or one of the highest violations in Judaism, be it Jesus or Vishnu.





For 2000 years, Jews have said these things & Christians have done despicable things to us for it. Now that we have much better relations with Chrisitans, along come these who continue to violate us & try identity thief as a way to get rid of our Jewish identity.



=============

DSM

I can't figure out what in the world you're saying. You've mixed sentences of mine with YOUR OWN THOUGHTS, then pretended they go together. Don't quote me anymore. It's against TOS to follow people & quote their answers to CREATE your core points of your answer. Be unique - don't distain Jews - & make your own answers from now on, without us. Endlessly quoting Jews to claim they are wrong, shows you aren't a Jew.



And what in the world does the occasionally nice supportive Christian got to do with the definition of Judaism. Jews help non-Jewish people all the time, but that dosn't make them or their theology Judaism either.



Converts are allowed & Messanics haven't converted by Judaism's process. So the rest of your argument doesn't logically follow since their opening lines contain a major lie.





Kira

That "cursing of Issiah 53" is Church antiJewish lies from 1500's. We don't cover it with black cloth either. Didn't it sound ridiculous to you? Judaism is quite complete & happy to itself & has fascinating interpretations that pre-date Chrisitanity.





To Asker

You are a foot soldier & may not realize... you've bought into replacement theology. Your "name" came about as result of your Christian religion choosing on purpose to violate Judaism's rights by calling itself Jewish in order to force Christianity on us. Or maybe you know this & are just spreading the lie because you think that's God's work. You list rituals like bris as though that makes you practicing Judaism. There are core elements to Judaism, & it is NOT defined by those rituals. That you don't know that - is additional proof that you aren't Jewish. It's common for Messanic foot soldiers to know so little about Judaism, that they came up with this. It's also common for them to know better but keep up the lie - because that is their purpose. Don't know which you are.



So my question to you - why do you need to call yourself Jewish? When did your group start calling itself such? Does your group ever teach you what Judaism itself believes that is vastly different than your beliefs? Does it teach you they are righteous? Or does it teach you, Jews are mistaken in not accepting Christ? Do you see how that is the SAME line Christians have used since they began? Do you know how many Jews were killed for not accepting that line over the centuries? If I started calling myself a Messanic that believed Jesus never existed, what would you call me? A Messanic or a liar about what Messanics are? I talked with at least on Messanic that researched & changed his name to Messanic believer. He was considering non-Pauline Christian. I was very pleased & proud of him. What does Judaism have that you need to steal the name for? What? God is available to everyone, Jewish & non-Jewish, so no need to shove into the Jewish relationship. Jesus didn't say you need to be a Jew. If you follow some of Jewish ritual to be like him, you are still following him. To claim you are a Jew is to claim you -don't- follow him & are sticking with the Jewish views. He started something new - go for it & give it a good name. Hebrew Christian (the prior name) WAS very good. Don't insult yourself & Jesus by claiming you are a Jew & aren't interested in him. Explain answers to these questions please.

Answer 6

you are not considered Jews because you do not follow Judaism.



you are disrespecting Judaism by deceitfully claiming to be Jewish when you are not.



you don't get to consider yourselves a part of Judaism. that is not your prerogative.



you are a christian. your beliefs go against the most fundamental beliefs of Judaism. you cannot be both.

Answer 7

Considering yourself Jewish doesn't make you Jewish. You have to be Halakhically Jewish in order to actually be Jewish. And even if you did have a kosher Jewish mother, because you're a "Messianic Jew" whose sole goal is to convert real Jews to Xny, the Halakha disowns you. You're a "meisis" (apostate). You deserve Kareit. You are the prime example of someone who doesn't enter the world to come. You are NOT Jewish.

Answer 8

Do you honestly think that Judaism is nothing more than rituals to be gone through? That the meanings are something you guys are able to change to suit yourselves?



Do you have any idea how rude that is?



I received the rites of baptism, first communion, reconciliation, and confirmation. I'm ethnically Catholic on my maternal side going back at least five generations. Does that entitle me to say that Catholic doctrine got a wee bit ahead of itself on the Messiah thing and it's possible to be Catholic and still waiting, to say that Jesus gave it a go but didn't succeed, that his death precludes him as a candidate because that criteria applies to every other candidate and it's a bit daft to change the rules for just him? My parents would be ever so relieved to think that I was back in the fold. I wonder if there are any Still Waiting Catholic churches near them, maybe I can convince them to join me.



What do you think, is that alright?

Answer 9

The Black Hebrews/Black Israelites also consider themselves Jewish. That doesn't make them Jewish. The Christian Identity groups think that they are the true Jews. They aren't either.



It simply doesn't matter what a group "considers" itself if it doesn't meet the definition of what it claims to be. In this case, not only do the Messianics' beliefs separate them from Judaism, they are a perfect match for another religion, Christianity. After all, the definition of a Christian is simply: "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus [as the messiah]." (Webster's Dictionary)



I know you claim to celebrate the Jewish holidays, but even there I would disagree. To take Pesach as an example, Messianics believe that it is a celebration that symbolizes the crucifixion of Jesus. Other holidays are given similar Christian interpretations. Pesach has no such associations in Judaism. By the way, other Christian groups have similar celebrations without claiming that it makes them Jewish.



So why is it that Messianic Christians and Jews don't get along? Because the Messianics are falsely claiming to be part of a religion that they are not, while denying that they are part of a religion that they are.

Answer 10

Please do not refer to us as "other Jews". We are the Jews and "messianic Jews" are not Jews but instead are Christians. You say you had a bris and you observe Jewish Holidays. Big deal. You believe as a Christian in the divinity of Jesus Christ (regardless of what name you use for him) and the Christian New Testament (regardless of what you call it) is sacred to you. Those two little incidental things make it quite clear that in fact you are not a Jew. You need to learn to live with the fact that you are a Christian and stop pretending you are a Jew because you are not.



If "messianic Jews" would simply accept the fact that they were a Christian sect and name themselves accordingly, they and Jews would certainly get along! But by keeping up this pretense of being Jewish they are currently thought of not as a Christian sect but instead as a Christian cult by us Jews.



edit: DSM is a prime example of why we do not get along with Christians who call themselves Jews. They claim they are Jews but they repeatedly insult Jews! No matter how many times he has been told it is an insult to us, he continues to call us with his made-up term "non-messianic Jews." We ARE messianic in that we are awaiting our messiah. Calling us "non-messianic" is an intentional insult. This has been pointed out to him repeatedly yet he continues. A real Jew would NEVER insult another Jew this way. A real Jew would NEVER worship or believe in Jesus or hold the New Testament sacred. He calls himself a "converted Messianic Jew" as if he actually converted away from his Christianity. He never left it. Who the hell does he think he is redefining Judaism to include his Christian god? He is not a Jew, he never was one, and he certainly is not a Jew now.



DSM--I can't figure out what in the world you are saying either ("Marcuss, if you are a Messianic Jew, then why would you be offended if I called you one? And if you would be offended by me calling you a Messianic Jew, then why are you offended if I call you a non-Messianic Jew? ...other than you are clueless about what would make you happy or tolerant of those with beliefs that are different than your own."). You make no sense at all. Regardless of your babble, I will let you know that I am extremely happy and get along wonderfully with people who have beliefs different than mine. It would be a different case, however, if these Christian and Muslim friends of mine insisted that they were Jewish and that I was not. You need to get a grip on reality and acknowledge your Christian beliefs!



edit: Oh come on, DSM, I GAVE YOU THE QUOTE of yours that makes no sense at all to me and you go and turn my words around and say that I said it was "scripture" that made no sense to me! How disingenuous, but oh how so typical of you! I await your apology for your failed, deliberate attempt to misrepresent my statement, but I'm not holding my breath.



DSM-- How many times do have to explain this to you? The term that you made up for Jews ("non-messianic") is highly insulting to Jews. Just because you choose to call you and your fellow Christian cult-members "messianic Jews" does not make them Jews and it does not mean that we are relegated to the insulting term "non-messianic Jews." We are Jews and you and your cohorts are not. The term that you made up for yourselves, "messianic Jews" is not a legitimate term for Christians to use for themselves because Jews are not Christians. How many times do I have to explain this to you? Why is it so difficult for you to understand that Jews do not recognize Jesus Christ in any way? If you want some legitimacy for your cult, and if you want it to be thought of as a sect rather than a cult, you should stop lying about who you are. Religious fraud is not looked upon highly by others, especially those who are the victims of the fraud, namely, us Jews. Your fraudulent misrepresentation of us has the potential to incite more hatred toward us by Christians than has been seen in a long time. Give it up and start acting responsibly and honestly for a change.



DSM-- the burden of proof is on you, not on us. It is you who has taken a mutually exlusive religion, namely Christianity, and are insisting that it is Judaism. But you have already proved that you are not Jewish by the very nature of your "religion", namely the fact that you believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God, a concept that is not compatible with Judaism. Throw in all the other trappings that go along with that belief, such as the use of the New Testament as just one example, and you have added more evidence to your proof that you are not Jewish. Oh, and go ahead, insult Reform Jews all you want--it just makes everyone laugh even more at you.



OY! There goes Troy F, a Christian, again pontificating about Judaism! It is amazing how some people think they are experts on something totally foreign to them. You can tell right away he knows relatively little about us when he says "Members of the Jewish community who do not believe in Jesus..." as if there were some members of the Jewish community who do believe in Jesus. As most people in the world are well aware (except for those with their own twisted agenda like Troy F), Jews do not believe in Jesus, Vishnu, Zeus, and all the other gods of all the other relgions in the world past and present. He focuses on one branch of Judaism being a little out of touch with the others to avoid the central issue at hand which he always seems to avoid--NO BRANCH OF JUDAISM holds Christian beliefs, not the Orthodox, the Conservative, the Reform, etc! He focuses so much on Orthodox Judaism--does he think Orthodox Jews believe in Jesus??????????????????????? Is he out of his mind? He goes to great lengths to try to show some discord within Judaism but he fails miserably in connecting that to the central issue here--do ANY Jews accept Jesus? NO THEY DO NOT!

Oh Troy F--did you hear about this?: "Israel’s Step Towards Religious Equality: In May 2009, Israel’s High Court ordered the Israeli government to cease discrimination against the Reform and Conservative Movements by funding their conversion programs and to issue them three years of retroactive payments. The court’s decision in the case—argued by the Israel Religious Action Center—is a breakthrough for Israeli Reform Judaism in its fight for equal status and bodes well for pending High Court religious equality cases, such as requiring Israel to also pay the salaries of Reform rabbis." from the latest issue of Reform Judaism magazine.

Answer 11

The answer to your question is rather complex as lines have been blurred and definitions changed over the years--yet all the while, people keep maintaining things are as they have always been. It's like working in an office where procedures do 180 degree flip-flops, yet when you ask when they started doing things a certain way and the workers say "this is the way we've always done it".



First of all, let's look at where Judaism is currently on the question of "who is a Jew"?. Some people like to perpetuate the false notion that Jewishness is only a matter of religious belief alone, and they'll even play the "anti-Semitism" card on you and compare you to Hitler if you don't swallow that idea wholesale...but that's obviously just a smoke screen as you can be a complete atheist and still be a considered a Jew. There are totally non-religious Jews and even homosexual Jews who are still considered Jewish, so Jewish identity obviously goes far beyond simply a matter of religious belief or even practice. Jewish identity involves being a part of the House of Israel, a son or daughter of Abraham, and being a part of Jewish peoplehood. Yes, people of other races and ethnic backgrounds can join the House of Israel, but when they do, it is assumed that they are becoming part of a Jewish heritage--not just changing religions. They'll tell you that if you converted to Judaism or if your mother was a Jew, then you're a Jew--even if you subsequently stop practicing the religion---but then they'll turn around and look at someone whose mother was a full-fledged practicing Jew and who grew up in a synagogue and say he somehow "quit being a Jew", just because he believes in Jesus. I know it sounds crazy, but this is really what is being perpetuated.



Now let's look at Christianity. Christianity was considered a branch of Judaism from its inception, and so it was. Jesus was a Jew. The apostles of Christ were all Jewish. Thousands of Jews were believers in Jesus. Even the Apostle Paul, the "apostle to the gentiles" was a Jew. Unlike Buddhism, Paganism, Hinduism, or Islam, Christianity was a direct outgrowth of Judaism, and the early Jewish believers in the Jewish messiah never "stop being Jewish" or "morphed into gentiles" (as though that would even be possible), or somehow "gave up" their Jewish identity or status.



Things came to a head after the "Bar Kochba" revolt against Rome. Simon Bar Kochba was proclaimed to be the messiah. Jewish believers in Jesus refused to march under the banner of a false messiah and defected. Because there were so many thousands of Jews who believed in Jesus, their refusal to support a false messiah had devastating consequences for the revolt. The Jews lost and were barred from Jerusalem. At that point, Jews who did not believe in Jesus began pretending that those who DID believe had somehow "lost their Jewish status" or "stopped being Jewish" and had somehow turned themselves into non-Jews. This silliness continues to this very day, and it often rips families apart.



We've come a long ways since the days when a young lady who accepted Jesus as the Messiah was drummed out of her own family, who might even have a funeral, bury a coffin, and sit shiva for her and pretend she was dead, but we still have a long way to go. Attempts are still made by members of the Jewish community to disenfranchise and "drum out" Jews who come to believe in Jesus, as though simply merely THINKING something could do what even denying God himself or spitting on his commandments and living an abominable lifestyle could not do--that is cancel and disannul someone's own Jewish heritage. That's right, they will pretend that you're no longer a Jew, simply because you have come to believe that a particular Jewish man is the promised Messiah who fulfills Isaiah 53. The hostility comes in when Jews who believe in Jesus refuse to allow these people to dictate to them what their heritage is, and when they refuse to let themselves be stripped of their Jewish identity by those who would redefine them.



Members of the Jewish community who do not believe in Jesus try to pooh-pooh Messianics as simply "playing at Judaism", but this is not limited only to Messianic Jews--it happens with others as well. For example, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has ever converted to Judaism in ANY branch of Judaism other than Orthodoxy is considered a non-Jew by the entire Orthodox branch, no matter what they believe or how Jewish their lifestyle is. If your grandmother was a ger who converted to Judaism in a Conservative synagogue, your mother was raised in an entirely Jewish home with a kosher kitchen and mezuzim on the door posts, and Judaism was all you had ever known, you would STILL be considered a gentile by every Orthodox Jew alive. So don't pay any attention to the whole ludacrous debate---if you know what you are, it really doesn't matter who tries to redefine you, and what other people think is their problem, not yours.

Answer 12

My Friend There iArn't any Messianic Jews Judaism does not recognize Jesus fact. They May Study the Torah, and the Scriptures. but they study Judaism incorrectly as they Do not understand the fundamentals of Judaism But they do not follow Judaism and they do not Follow Christianity Perhaps they Should Study the Scriptures a Little More They could Support Israel.. Has nothing to do with their Faith.

Answer 13

Until June of 1975 there were no "Messianic Jews", they were called "Hebrew-Christians". This was done in accordance with a vote lead by Martin Chernoff, then President of the Hebrew Christian Alliance of America, which he turned into the "Messianic Jewish Alliance of America". ,



Changing your name 39 years ago, but not any of your beliefs, doesn't change your religion from Christianity into Judaism.



Whether you are or aren't a Jew according to Halacha (Jewish Law) isn't relevant, the religion you are practicing is not Judaism. At worst you are an observer of Avodah Zara, a middle route just makes you an apostate, at best you are a Tinkok Shenishba (someone who is Halachically Jewish, but because you were raised by non-Jews and are ignorant of the religion you are not held as accountable for those actions which violate Jewish Law).



Also, many (all?) Messianic "Jews" will consider themselves Jewish if their father is Jewish, while Judaism holds only maternal descent is legitimate. So depending on your personal details, you may not even be Jewish 'ethnically' as you put it.



There's an old joke; ask two Jews a question about Halacha and you'll get 3 opinions. The fact that it is universally agreed upon by *all* Jews around the world demonstrates how completely antithetical your beliefs are to core Judaism.



Tell me, if a Hindu decided to have a Bris, followed every single aspect of Halacha, but still believed in G'nesh, would they be Jewish? Would you consider them Jewish even if they might technically be Jewish from maternal descent? If a Jewish G'nesh movement began, would you consider it a branch of Judaism? Even if the "Jewish G'nesh-ites" never even once disrespected or denounced Judaism verbally, wouldn't the very fact that they are calling themselves "Jews" be considered disrespectful to Judaism? If they had the same exact beliefs and called it by a different name, do you think you would care about them in the least?



That's what you are, the equivalent of a "Jewish G'nesh-ite". Despite your actions which are often similar to that of an observant Jew (yet often not more than skin deep because of the Christian meanings you give to many Jewish customs) your religion is completely alien and incompatible with Judaism, just like the "Jewish G'nesh-ite".



Call your religion something else, go back to calling yourself Hebrew-Christians and most Jews will no longer care what you do or say. It's because you're claiming to be part of our religion, when you're antithetical to it, which is why it has to be made clear you are not Jews, and are denounced as such.

Answer 14

Ok, I am not Jewish or Christian (I'm Native). But from listening (reading) what Jewish people have said (wrote) over again I think I can give an example to one of your questions. You asked why you are seen as the bad guys. Christians believe that they should go around the world converting people. You all see this as doing a good thing. I imagine people like yourself think it is good to do this in the Jewish community. Other people who (like myself) are not Christian see this as an attempt to destroy and annihilate our beliefs and culture. I would imagine that for Jewish people, such an attack on their culture is twice as hurtful when it comes from someone like yourself. To relate that to my personal experience it is like when I tell a Christian bent on converting me "No thanks I am Lakota" and they say "I know native people who are Christian, you can be Native and Christian". Well in my opinion you can't. Our teachings are clear on not mixing teachings. I find when my own support such tactics it just reinforces this belief amongst other Christians. Like my people Jewish people believe you can't mix religions, you are saying it is OK and that harms the traditions and age old beliefs. If you did not try to convert or say that your beliefs were the same I am sure the attitude would be different because it would be personal choice.not sayingng they would view you as Jewish, just not view you as a bad guy.



I hope I did not step on toes in trying to draw parallels in experienceses, as that was not my intent.

Answer 15

Because Messianics aren't Jewish enough.

Ya know the same way how Catholics and Protestants argued about how the other party isn't Christian enough.

Answer 16

I don't know if this will help for your assignment in World History but I will give you the best truthful answer I can.



In short this is the work of the adversary, the enemy of all Jews and Gentile Believers in Yeshua, the one we call satan. Like a man condemned to death he knows what is coming to him. When the nation of Israel calls upon the name of Yeshua he will see his fate coming that much closer and like a condemned man he is going kicking and screaming.



In the last two decades more Jews have accepted Yeshua than in the nearly twenty centuries prior. This brings me joy and gladness but to the adversary it brings horror and fear. Sadly this fear can be transmitted outwardly through us.



I have to admit also that those who called themselves Christians and part of the church have worked and played into satan's hands. Jews throughout the centuries have been persecuted, tortured and murdered under the sign of the cross and under the name of Christianity. I personally find this abhorrent and shameful that this was done, possibly by some of my ancestors, that these horrible tradgedies ocurred blaspheming the name of my G-D. This is why some of the most religious Jews find accepting Yeshua by a Jew insulting.



In the beginning of our faith, Believers in The Way and the Talmudic Jews were mostly peaceful. Believers in the Way often met and worshipped in the same synagouges and the Talmudic Jews. Our split probably truly began during the siege of Jerusalem by the Roman Legions. The Roman's allowed the Gentile believers to leave Jerusalem and sadly many did, abandoning their Jewish bretheren to a horrible fate. The spit was even further divided when Christianity was adopted as the State religion of Rome. Many of the pagan priest and clerics were appointed as Bishops and priest. Anti-semitism was bred into the State church which evolved into the Roman Catholic Church, the State Churches of the European kingdoms and domiciles that sprang up after the fall of Rome. This began the many atrocities that were committed to the Jewish people under the sign of the cross.



In short hatred breeds hatred and that is why, not all, but many Jews have such a strong disdain with the Messianic Jews.

Answer 17

because by insisting that you are jews while worshipping a human, you are contradicting core beliefs of judaism. it is not acceptable to adopt contradictory theology and then claim to be a member of the religion you changed. that is the only problem jews have with messianics. the vast majority of messianics are christian evangelicals who are deliberately trying to redefine jewish theology in order to convert them. stop calling yourselves jews and there will be no animosity on the part of real jews.

Answer 18

I am not a Jew (I am Christian). I believe the main argument is the simplest. Messianic Jews are Christian. I agree that there is never a time to be disrespectful or cruel.

Answer 19

There are basically two kinds of Jews, Messianic Jews and Non Messianic Jews. Messianic Jews are filled with fervor for the Messiah.



Messianic Jews believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah so then that would make Jews that do not believe in the Messiah Yeshua Non-Messianic Jews.



The problem is some Non Messianic Jews insist in defining Messianic Judaism as a form of Christianity. They also tell you that only Jews get to decide who Jews are. In the same breath they tell you who Christians are. In this way they get to define Christianity yet and at the same time Christians don't have a right to decide who Christians are.



The most vocal group is called Jews Pagans and Allies. They are an Anti Messianic Group here on Yahoo. They also don't seem to take to kindly to Christians.



We don't believe that Messianic Jews are necessarily Christians. People calling themselves Messianic Jews are as diverse in beliefs and practices as Non Messianic Jews or even Christians, so it’s hard to pin down universal beliefs that some here insist that they have.



Everybody knows how a person becomes a Jew "officially". A Jew is someone that was born of a Jewish mother or converts to Judaism. Once a person is a Jew they are always a Jew.



There is one exception for some people belief that Jesus is the Messiah. Jews will tell you that Messianic Jews have joined another religion and that they stop being Jews at the moment of joining.



At the same time you have Jews practicing Paganism, becoming Buddhists and joining the Unitarian Church and they will say that they are still Jews. Yet you will never see any complaints about that.



In fact its celebrated See Barrel Bottoms comment :



https://answersrip.com/question/index?qid=20080925130239AAcb5lf



Someone in the past said it was also possible to become an Associate. I don't know what they meant. The idea of being an associate Jew or part time Jew is preposterous. I doubt that it is true. I hope that she will see your question and explain.



This helps explain the divide between Messianic and Non Messianic Jews.



Suckels COR staunch defender of Messianic Judaism

Answer 20

Because you are Christians pretending to be Jews..and you guys are not Jewish in the least bit....Jews and Jesus concept does not mix

Answer 21

Very simple, because some Jews rather support paganism and people who do not do the will of God, rather than support Messianic Jews. Messianic Jews are Jewish people who recognized Yeshua as their Messiah what is so bad about that?

Answer 22

Messianic Jews have disavowed Judaism!!!!!!!!!

Answer 23

Messianic Jews follow YHWH & His Torah & Messiah Y'shua His Son.

Messianic Jews worship YHWH only & are not afraid to use His Name.

Messianic jews have a personal relationship with the Father & the Son.



Judaism follows the Talmud, a man made religion. 613 Laws that are

impossible to keep & if they do keep them its by sheer willpower.



So because of the enormous rift between them, they cannot get on.

Do not let anyone tell you that U are not a Jew. By their own admission

they say that all Jews do not follow Judaism. If its quite okay to be an

atheist & a Jew then its even better to be a Messianic Jew, at least U

believe in YHWH Eloah & His Torah. Baruch Haba B'shem YHWH.

Answer 24

Are Messianic Jews Jewish?



No. A Jew who accepts Christianity might call himself a “Jewish Christian,”

but he is no longer a Jew[1]. He can no longer even be counted as part of a

Jewish congregation[2].

Conversion to another faith is an act of religious treason in Judaism. It is one of

the worst possible sins that a Jew can ever commit. Along with murder and

incest, it is one of the three cardinal sins which may not be violated even

under pain of death. [3] It’s a big deal.

Rabbi Moses Isserles demanded a formal conversion back to Judaism for those who converted out of Judaism but who then wanted to return to Judaism. (One who practices idolatry denies the whole of the Torah.)[4]

He demanded ritual immersion (mikveh) and repentance before a court of three (beit din). You will see this also in other Responsa literature: Radbaz, Responsa III, 415; Moses Isserles to Yoreh Deah 268.12; and Hoffman, Melamed Leho-il II, 84.

Maimonides himself wrote that if a Jew converted to Christianity, he or she was no longer a Jew (Yad, loc. cit. 2:5.). Also see Maimonides, Hilchot Mamrim Perek 3, Halacha 1-3, as well as in Maimonides's Mishnah Torah, Avodat Kochavim 2:5.





Note the following Biblical Passage:

I Kings 18:21. Elijah the prophet asked Jews who were beginning to slip into the worship of the idol, Baal, "How long will you go limping with two different opinions? If the God of the Jews is God, follow Him! but if Baal is God, then follow him!" Elijah told the Jews, one or the other, not both! You cannot believe in two opposite, mutually exclusive ideas simultaneously. Judaism and Christianity believe in opposite, mutually exclusive ideas, and you cannot be a Jew and a believer that Jesus was the Christ at the same time. We are supposed to prefer death over the practice of Christianity [5].

This is not to say apostate ex-Jews are not welcome back!

Rabbi Moses Isserles demanded a formal conversion back to Judaism for those who converted out of Judaism but who then wanted to return to Judaism. He demanded ritual immersion (mikveh) and repentance before a court of three (beit din). You will see this also in other Responsa literature: Radbaz, Responsa III, 415; Moses Isserles to Yoreh Deah 268.12; and Hoffman, Melamed Leho-il II, 84.

Indeed, the Tanakh says…

“As I live, says G-d, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but

that they turn from their way and live.” (Ezek. 33:11).

“When the wicked turns from his sin, and does what is lawful and

right, he shall live thereby.” (Ibid. 33:19).

“That every man shall return from his way, and I will forgive him.”

(Jer. 36:3)

“If they return to You, and confess Your Name, and pray ... then You

will hear in Heaven, and forgive their sin.” (1 Kings 8:33, 34)



Even a Jew who has embraced another faith is given another chance. He can still return to Judaism and be reaccepted by G-d. However, he must sever all ties with the faith he converted to (in this case, the Christian or “Messianic” faith).

Answer 25

One plain answer i could give is the issue with Yeshua as Mashiach.

Though both be born Jews through their Jewish mother/father.



This has been foretold. Many will suffer, put out of the synagogue, hated by their families, because of Him... i don't see the necessary fuss...since it has been foretold...



And blessed are those who hear it.

Answer 26

ALL movements of Judaism across the world are in complete agreement that the groups of New Testament followers who call themselves “Messianic Jews” are an assault to Jewish identity by people who profess faith in the doctrine of the Christian religion. Jews are also not telling these people whom to believe in or what religion they should follow but just trying to inform the world that these people are not being honest when they try to hijack the identity of the Jewish people and the Jewish religion.

An atheist can't convert to Judaism because to become a part of the Jewish people one is required to make the affirmation of faith (Shema) but one born into the covenant people who has come to a decision they don't think God exists has not left the Jewish people to take on a foreign god..it doesn't mean an atheist Jew is following Judaism, they've simply not become something else. I hope you read what I wrote at the link below and do not plagiarize anyone's words here for your report..think carefully and read and you will see that what you may have been misled to see as obsercving Judaism ( taking the outward customs and rituals and symbolism) and applying to it doctrines of faith that are outright forbidden by direct commandment IN the Torah is not Judaism and why none of the world's believing Jews will ever consider the New Testament doctrine as Judaism.



For the world's Jews and Judaism the eternal covenant has not and shall never be replaced by or have as a part of it the doctrine of the New Testament.



Tolerance and respect require honesty and the very elements of faith that define Judaism are attempted to be turned topsy turvy by these groups who now demand that Jews "tolerate" and respect that.



This is not a schism within Judaism and characterizing it as such is a misnomer of great degree. http://israelinsider.ning.com/forum/topics/messianic-synagogues-target



http://mamaspajamaparty.blogspot.com/2009/08/how-intolerant-of-me.html

please read the references and links I give within that



Shalom

edit: the Interfaith Conference of Metropolitan Washington comprised of IFC members are the Bahá'í, Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic, Jain, Jewish, Mormon, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Sikh, and Zoroastrian faith communities issued a statement in 1997 which read in part "We condemn proselytizing efforts which delegitimize the faith tradition of the person whose conversion is being sought. Such tactics go beyond the bounds of appropriate and ethically based religious outreach. Examples of such practices are those common among groups that have adopted the label of Hebrew Christianity, Messianic Judaism, or Jews for Jesus. These groups specifically target Jews for conversion to their version of Christianity, making claim that in accepting Jesus as the savior/messiah, a Jew 'fulfills' his/her faith. Furthermore, by celebrating Jewish festivals, worshipping on the Jewish Shabbat, appropriating Jewish symbols, rituals and prayers in their churches, and, sometimes, even calling their leaders 'Rabbi', the seek to win over, often by deception, many Jews who are sincerely looking for a path back to their ancestral heritage. Deceptive proselytizing is practiced on the most vulnerable of populations - residents of hospitals and old age homes, confused youth, college students away from home. These proselytizing techniques are tantamount to coerced conversions and should be condemned."



edit: To answer a question of what is wrong with calling people who worship jesus as "Jews"....Civilizations, societies, peoples operate under systems of law...our own country has it's laws based on the Constitution. While Jews observe the secular laws of the lands we live in, the Torah is the law that determines our identity as a covenant nation people and our connection to God and purpose as a light unto the nations. As a people, according to international standards of basic human rights according to the Declaration of Human Rights,all nation peoples have a right to maintain our laws of self-identity. The Jewish people should also have the same rights as all other nation peoples according to the Declaration of Human Rights, it is our right and obligation to speak up for the right of Jews to continue to use Jewish law for self-determination.

The Jewish people consider God's will for us the Torah and those who violate it by worship of a man as a god, are not doing God's will for the Jews. Get it?



There is a difference between following a law and violating it. The New Testament follower who claims to be "Torah observant" by worshipping Jesus, violates the laws for the Jewish people, but is maintaining the laws or dogma of the religion of Christianity. They do not have the authority to redefine or negate the laws God gave to Israel in the Torah.



I am wondering why the concept of law is so difficult for some to grasp. The laws from God for Israel do not permit man/god worship. The eternal laws from God for Israel do not permit human sacrifice.



edit: Please note that the multiple posts making threats made here to everyone of the Jewish religion for "refusing" to believe in Jesus (as Torah commands Jews to not abandon God to worship foreign deities, and forbids man/god worship or human sacrifice ) and how eerily they echo the threats that preceded inquisition, pogrom and Holocaust perpetrated on our ancestors who also refused to abandon God and Torah no matter the threat.

Answer 27

Don't waste your time with silly people who try and judge you, PEOPLE is the key word here. Not GOD, just ordinary bias people.

Answer 28

people with divergent belief systems seldom get along.

Answer 29

Because the Jewish still Reject The Messiah to this day!! (Jesus IS The Messiah!)

Answer 30

The main difference is that the Messianic Jews believe in reading Isaiah 53, and the others don't. In fact, the orthodox Jews have cursed anyone who reads/studies Isaiah 53. Sounds like they're afraid of the Truth.

Answer 31

***Why are we not considered Jews?***

As you know, you are a Jew if:



1. You mother is a Jew

2. You convert.



Arguments against Messianic Jews being Jews.



1. Violation of 1st commandment.

2. No converts allowed. See rule #1



Babies and Reform Jews are considered Jews even though they violate the 1st commandment. So the quick answer is that a separate set of rules apply.

Here is why...



Babies and Reform Jews aren't required to belief that the Torah / Tanakh record actual historical events. Therefore, babies and Reform Jews are not required to believe:



1. God is the King of the Universe and the King of kings.

2. The covenants made by God are real and binding.

3. Abraham was a real person....making lineage to a fictitious person meaningless.

4. God giving Moses the Law was not an actual event making the law man made and man enforced instead of God made and God enforced described by Jewish scriptures.

5. All claims that Israel was divinely given becomes absurd.



Therefore, atheism is not a valid form of scriptural Judaism as it destroys Judaism at its core. You will not see the Orthodox validating the idea that scriptural Judaism is both theistic and atheistic for some very intelligent reasons.



When it comes to being a citizens in the kingdom of God where King of the universe is King of kings, there isn't a place in the universe where He is not king. Therefore, in the kingdom of the God of Israel,



1. the first command is the law where there is no other king the citizen recognizes before the King of kings. This means that when there are two kings, God takes first place. However, there is no way to read the 1st commandment in context without reading the verses in front where it states plainly that what gives God the authority to make commandments is that He lead Israel out of Egypt. It is impossible to be lead out of Egypt by God and be an atheist. The first commandment establishes God as God whether there are other gods or not.



Likewise, it is impossible to take God's name in vain if there is no God. A belief that Jews can be atheists means not only can you dishonor God by saying you don't believe He exist. But you make all the commandments God gave Moses totally meaningless...especially the third one to take God's name in vain.

2. the citizens are not allowed to practice that which contradicts the laws of the King of kings.

3. the king expects his citizens to follow the all His laws and does not allow His citizens opt out of any simply because they disagree.

4. there is an age where all citizens are to know the King of Israel and know His Law is binding.



In addition, there no record of God ever bringing the age of the prophet to an end and start the age of the Rabbi. No where. In fact, setting a seat for Elijah at Passover means there is still one prophet left to come before the age can end.



And In the 1000 years of application recorded in the Tanakh, there is no example of ONE case where ANYONE consulted the Talmud to gain insight of what God wanted.



When talking about the NT, the Talmud can't be compare and requires an easier standard if not a free pass for the following reasons:



1. Rabbinic Jews themselves can't agree whether the Talmud was given to Moses by God or if man made it. For this reason alone, the Talmud has to be examined under an easier standard than what the NT normally has to go through.



2. If the oral Torah existed, then the evidence has to be that God protected its perfect passing for 1000 years and several conquests of other nations. To write the Torah down meant that Rabbinic Jews believed they could now do a better job of protecting the oral Torah than then believe God.



3. The playing field between the oral Torah and written Torah became completely and totally even when the oral Torah became written. And as the oral Torah has been written longer that it is said to have been oral, a more honest and accurate description would be that it is a 2nd written Torah.



4. The prophets who perfectly passed the oral Torah were the same prophets who wrote the written Torah. Therefore, the written Torah was written by the undisputed expert of the oral Torah. As the prophet's account is the only eyewitness account and the prophet was the undisputed authority of the oral Torah who perfectly passed it to the next generation, his account is the best interpretation for the following reasons:



a. What the prophet wrote WAS an interpretation of the event.

b. The undisputed authority of the oral Torah wrote the written Torah through the lense of the oral Torah. To suggest that anyone of his day could have written one that was more closely aliened with the oral Torah is to discredit the perfect passing of the oral Torah and discredit the written version of the oral Torah.

c. The reason it has to be the best interpretation is because it is the only interpretation.

d. Being the only record of the event, everyone else is dependant on the prophet to make their interpretation of an interpretation.

e. No one involved with a just legal system would ever suggest that the interpretation of an eye witness account is ever better than the eye witness account....especially when the Rabbi lived at least 500 years later and can credit at least part of his/her understanding of the Torah/Tanakh to the prophet that perfectly had past the oral Torah.



When talking about Messianic Judaism, a double standard is applied where if non-Messianic Judaism had to live up to these standards, Messianic Judaism would either proven true or non-Messianic Judaism would be proven false.



In other words, don't expect a fair or informative debate. Instead, expect one that requires you to believe the non-Messianic position by blind faith or be considered anti-Semetic....hardly what scriptural Judaism requires.



Hope this helps



EDIT



Cher says: ***God is one, abstract, incorporeal, not male or female, can not take human form.***



Cher is one who doesn't know if the Torah records actual historic events. But one thing for sure, she doesn't believe what the Torah teaches is Jewish.



Genesis 18 (entire chapter)

Exodus 24: 9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; 10 and they saw the G-d of Israel; and there was under His feet the like of a paved work of sapphire stone, and the like of the very heaven for clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel He laid not His hand; and they beheld G-d, and did eat and drink.

http://www.hareidi.org/bible/Exodus24.htm#1



Isaiah 6:5

Then said I: Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for mine eyes have seen the King, HaShem of hosts. 6 Then flew unto me one of the seraphim, with a glowing stone in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar; 7 and he touched my mouth with it, and said: Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin expiated.

http://www.hareidi.org/bible/Isaiah6.htm#1



Cher, what part confuses you? Your own words or the scriptures that proves your point invalid?



Cher said: ***For 2000 years, Jews have said these things***



And non-Messianic Jews have not heard HaShem or the Spirit of God for 2,500 years. As the Spirit of God is definitely Jewish and the 3rd person of the Trinity, the Spirit of God is removed from all discussions of whether Christianity is monotheistic or Judaism is bi-theistic.



Cher, If you looked at my answer, you will see that I didn't quote you in the body of my Answer. And if you look at the guidelines, I have every right to state the truth about Messianic Judaism as you have the right to state the truth about that which isn't Messianic Judaism. In addition, I have the same right to respond to the criticism of Messianic Judaism as you have the right to respond to the criticism of that which isn't Messianic Judaism. If you don't believe in equal opportunity, then you can create your own blog and ban all who don't agree with the way you think at the time. Or you could quote the Jewish scriptures or the source of your information so you aren't the originator of the ideas.



EDIT



Mark S, you really need to keep reading in 1 Kings from the Jewish scriptures instead of the paraphrased version your Rabbi gives.



1 Kings 19:10 "'I have been very jealous for HaShem, the G-d of hosts; for the children of Israel have forsaken Thy covenant, thrown down Thine altars, and slain Thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.' http://www.hareidi.org/bible/1_Kings19.htm



If what the Rabbi said put into practice in Scriptural Judaism, then the nation of Israel would be considered apostate at this point and their title as Jews removed.



***Rabbi Moses Isserles demanded a formal conversion back to Judaism for those who converted out of Judaism*** In the many times Jews are recorded as converting out of Judaism in the Jewish scriptures, what the Rabbi said never was practiced. Again, scriptural Judaism and non-Messianic Judaism conflict and the teaching of the Rabbi is given preference.



Edit



Marcuss, if you are a Messianic Jew, then why would you be offended if I called you one? And if you would be offended by me calling you a Messianic Jew, then why are you offended if I call you a non-Messianic Jew? ...other than you are clueless about what would make you happy or tolerant of those with beliefs that are different than your own.



Being a Reform Jew, I can understand why you would say, ***A real Jew would NEVER insult another Jew this way.*** However, can you prove this to me using the 1000 years of applied Judaism recorded by the Jewish scriptures. Please tell me why the nation of Israel split and could never be reconciled?