Jews, Judaism; What does JPA stand for? Where does such a relationship exist within the confines of halacha?

Question

I appoligies for the gramatical errors.

Answer 1

The issue of co-operating with non-Jews has been addressed by various halachic authorities. HaRav Soloveitchik and various others banned interfaith dialogue as having no positive effect but could have a detrimental effect. However, while interfaith dialogue is forbidden, co-operating on matters of mutual interest outside of the religious field and in the secular realm is considered to be ok..



Examples of Rabbi's discussing and working on issues of mutual concern with the clergy of other religions is seen across the spectrum. Probably one of the most visible examples of this is the work Rabbi Moshe Sherer zst", who was the head of Agudath Yisrael in the USA at the time, did with a Catholic cardinal (I forget his name), on issues of mutual interest outside of religious discussion. The JPA falls into this ambit as its purpose is merely to make sure that accurate information is put out. Their is no advocacy of one religion over another, no discussion of religion, no theological debates etc. Thus within the JPA there is no breaking of the ban of HaRav Soloveitchik on interfaith dialogue.



edit: Within the JPA forum there are NO religious discussions, no teaching of religion, no comparing of religious ideaologies etc. The group basically just consists of starring questions so others are aware of them, and a list of relevant questions being sent out to the group. What you do with the list is up to you- I only go to questions relevant to Judaism and more lately the questions on Native American culture (which seems to attract a lovely bunch of crackpots) but I do not go to any questions to do with Paganism, vote on Pagan questions, answer on pagan questions etc. The forum is no more than a list of questions and an occasional social chat. it is purely secular and no more religious that Rabbi Moshe Shorrer zst"l discussion with a cardinal, having Rabbis in israel conducting talks with the Vatican etc. yes, we have to be careful to avoid Avodah Zarah and the appearance of Avodah Zarah- but there is none here, nor does the group operate in such a way that there could be avodah zara or the appearance of Avodah Zara. The only reason that the subject has arisen at all, has been because of the groups effectiveness in countering the missionaries and their lies and thus their spreading of lies about the group to try and counter it.



On the issue of a jew who converts remaining jewish- they remain jewish only in a VERY limited sense! what sense is that? The fact that when they die they will be judged, and punished, as a Jewish heretic (in other words their soul loses its place in the world to come and is punished with kares). In fact, in the Shulchan aruch the Rema rules that a Jewish convert to another religion HAS TO CONVERT to return to Judaism! it is only in the modern era with the ruling that the majority of converts can be classified as a tinok she'lo b'nishma that we no longer make them convert to return! In all practical ways, a Jew who has converted to another religion is NOT considered Jewish. they cannot participate in the Jewish community in anyway whatsoever- be it in a religious or social capacity, they cannot be members of a shul, they cannot be members of any Jewish organisation, they ar enot buried in a jewish cemetary, they are not mourned as a Jew, we do not sya Kaddish for them either in shiveh, sholshim, the first year or on their yahrtzeit- in other words, they are as cut off from the jewish community in this world as their soul will be cut off in the world to come. Thsu, practically and simplistically, the statement that a Jew who has converted to another religion is no longer Jewish is ACCURATE (though to be 100% accurate they could add "except in that their soul will be judged as a Jew and punished for tis heresy with kares"). If you don't believe me, ask any Orthodox Rabbi about the status of a Jew who has converted to another religion and its practical implications.

Answer 2

Allon is correct because we LIVE IN MODERN TIMES, not in ancient history where humanity was non existance. Respect and adaptation gets people further in life than sour grapes does. I am with them and they have made it very clear those that are Jewish that where are not a threat to them and vice versa and have more in common in tragedy than lets say Christians. The JPA is a group of individuals who believe in ensuring that proper information of each faith is stated properly and out of this friendships have been made and there is nothing wrong with that, destroying Idols as you stated is so old school and out of date today it would be considered vandalism and disrespectful. Do you not think it is better for people to get along rather then allow a difference of views start a fight? I have NEVER been discouraged from studying Judaism and have had any question I ask them answered nicely and proper and also asked questions in return. Its called respect for other cultures and life and being a humanitarian rather than going against what your heart says because some ancient script says so, they use common sense obviously, we live in an era where it is impossible for just about any culture to go untouched by another culture so you have to adapt and move forward. So that is why Allonov is correct and answers like that these are Jews who understand their own faith and how to follow it so maybe you need to get outside more and see just how diverse the world is.



Edit: a TD from you or anyone is honestly a TU for me so ty! id expect no less just from the question.



Edit II: Icandi I am not Jewish and have defended Jews and they also have defended me when needed and as stated we do not discuss faith in the forum just assist each other in ensuring the proper answers are made.

Answer 3

Oh for heaven's sake...



this is not Jews defending Pagans! This is Jews and Pagans and others on an insane (yet oddly entertaining) forum who star questions that they encounter so that more knowlegable people can answer them. Holy shat, take a deep breath!



There is a LOT of anti-semetic garbage that is posted on this forum, and a bunch of us star or thumbs-down these posts. Then people with more specific knowledge encounter the offensive material and deal with it in whatever way they feel is appropriate. Similarly there are a lot of people who equate paganism with being a heathen sinner who is hellbound and hedonistic, and when we see negative material posted about them we star it so that they can respond to it.



Did I say "we"? I am not JPA, but several of my valued contacts are, and when they star things I check them out. Usually someone more knowledgeable than I has arrived there first, so I just make the rounds with stars and thumbs-down or up, whatever I feel is appropriate.



I hate to say it, but the person who posted this question and the additional details is acting like a fundie Christian, except I would be reluctant to tar the fundies with the same brush...if you pi$$ off the JPA or their allies, we will sic the Kosher Ninja Chick on you and your life online will become a raging sea...some of these JPA keep lists, (on this I am totally serious) and you don't want to be on their list, or someone will be sticking pins in a doll with your avatar on it...(that part was a joke)

Answer 4

answer: A group of contacts that star questions for each other. It is NOT pagans mixing Jewish beliefs nor Jews mixing paganism into Judaism.



In fact, members of the JPA are adamant in standing against 'messianics' doing just that to Judaism and take a lot of flack for it. Usually by someone who likes to think he knows more about Judaism than Jews and often throws around words like Avoda Zarah and Halach and.... why, accusations like yours!



And you, who knows nothing about the JPA is parroting his exact arguments. How odd.



Even more odd - that a JEW would use the word "crusader" in their avatar name considering the history of massacres by crusaders against Jews. You sound awfully like a Christian than a Jew.

Answer 5

Jews, Pagans & Allies.



Kallan and myself formed the group quite a while back, to counter the *lies* being told about both faiths in this forum. Now we have Hindu, Christian, Atheist members also.



BTW, MAIMONIDES stated that a Jew who converted to another faith was an EX JEW.



That's good enough for me.







To 'incandescent':



It is true that our Pagan friends have perhaps learned more about Judaism than some Jews have learned about Pagan beliefs.



Partly this is because there are so many Pagan faiths, it's impossible for us to study them all. That said, be assured that *I* and many others DO answer posts directed at Wiccans, for example, and some of the other Pagan-related posts. Just look at my own question and answer list for the proof of this.



But if any of our Pagan friends do agree with you, I hope very much they will tell us, so we can right what would be a wrong.



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WOW BAD TIM - what an astute and empathic answer!!!!



You really 'get' what it's like to be Jewish!!!

Answer 6

it's jews, pagans, and allies, and i have learned enough about judaism to answer most of the often-repeated questions in R&S and to rebut blatant attacks, especially when they come on holy days. i can also identify myself as a pagan and be completely frank with idiots where jews have to be polite to avoid the inevitable accusations of hostility if they state the unvarnished truth about what's really going on behind these questions.





incandescent, just because somebody puts 'JPA' in their nick doesn't mean they're really part of our effort to promote tolerance and accurate information. as a pagan, there are a lot of pagan questions that even i can't answer because there's just too many differences in theology among us. yes, i've noticed an absence of jewish answers, but most pagan questions aren't about politics in a certain country, physical characteristics of pagans, whether or not such and such name is pagan, why pagans control the media or finance or hollywood, and any other number of purely racist attacks. i don't expect jews to provide theological answers to pagan questions because i know it is contrary to their beliefs to do so and i respect that. that said, i have noticed their presence when we've been attacked, despite the huge amount of attacks they receive on a daily basis.



and as for you, 'truth crusader' and your fundamentalist christian-inspired nick, if you cared enough to get to know pagans you would understand that we have no interest in foisting our beliefs on others. but i think you're a christian who knows enough about judaism to be hateful and not enough to know that jews are among the most tolerant people on earth. so i don't expect you to understand the JPA.

Answer 7

My understanding of Judaism (I was raised conservative) is that it is about ethical actions first, and niceties of belief after. Judaism, I was taught, is about asking questions, not providing pat answers. The Talmud, far from being a definitive, authoritative text, is a record of rabbinic dispute and debate. And what one group or Rabbis decide, another group may disagree with. There is nothing unethical about two groups of misrepresented people standing up for one another.



I answer questions not only in defense of pagans when they are being attacked, but also Catholics, when they're routinely attacked by fundies as being idol worshipers, as well as all kinds of misrepresentations made by people about atheists and pantheists.



(In my personal case, when I first asked if it was okay with others if I appended the initials to my screen name, I wondered if we could extend it to Jewish Pantheist Alliance, since I identify as pantheist, but am extremely grateful to the Jews of the JPA for helping me reconnect with my heritage and reach a rapprochement with my family).



Edit: I wonder if Incandescent is (perhaps willfully, who knows) misunderstanding a post or posts of mine. I've said on many occasions that ETYMOLOGY of the word "heathen", like the etymology of the word "pagan", is that of unsophisticated country dweller, with connotation of rube. Heathen literally meant "dweller on the heath" and Paganus literally meant rural person. The fact that these folks held on to their old religions longer than the newly Christian folks of the late Roman empire is when these words acquired their meaning of "non-Christian".

Answer 8

Oh my. You are sounding like a Christian on the bee-up-the-bonnet end of their scale. An ultra religious Jew, doesn't go on the way you have in the last few posts. Especially the part about claiming "truth." Judasim isn't about "being the truth" or ranting at others.



As for JPA, they've been great. There is an incredible amount of antisemitic crud in this place & online in general. The non-Jews from all walks have expressed curiousity to learn what Judaism is vs. the more visible Christianity all around... have helped when a virulent sort comes through (especially with naseating Holocaust denial)... and been kind when the turkeys get us down.





Incandescant

That's awful if someone posted that --- but keep in mind those who can't tolerate, like to put the letters in their name & pretend. If it was someone in the loose association for real, please tell us. That's not okay. However, no one in the group spotted or commented on it to each other which would be very odd if it was someone we knew.



I try hard to help with any of the ranting at Pagans that's way out of line, same as I've found myself doing when I spot other awful stuff (YA has every hate possible). I answered a few pagan questions at one point, but really don't know enough to make sense. To the asker - I don't care what someone's beliefs are if they are non-violent & pretty much violent levels of hate are coming at them, if is my obligation as a Jew to stand up to that. Not just an option, but life is valued & incitement to hate requires of me to protect & defend other people's lives & rights to non-assault.



As for Paganism, I've found it is nothing like the images of old, & for the most part modern paganism is pretty low key stuff about respecting others & yourself. It's been easier to grasp than Christianity has been for me. Certainly it is no different than getting along with Christians, now that I know more.



You are quoting aspects in Talmud that also have equally as powerful counter stories & counter points. Only the counter ones that tell a person to treat others well, generally have always been the stronger & more valued, & have more presence in the text. If I was any good at spitting out texts & quotes, I'd do that. However, I don't have time to go get the exact references right now.



So, I'll leave it there. I am no longer inclined to believe you are Jewish, but only that you've learned enough to make trouble. I've had disagreements with Haredi that have made more sense & certainly the Kol Yisrael stayed in the conversation.





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A few quotes:



They said of Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakai that no man ever greeted him first, even idol worshippers in the market" [i.e., Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakai was the first to greet every person, even idol worshippers] (Berachot 17).



"[it is proper to] support the idol worshippers during the sabbatical year …. and to inquire after their welfare [commentators: even on the days of the holidays of their idols, even if they do not keep the seven Noahide commandments] because of the ways of peace." (Shevi'it

4,3)



'We support poor Gentiles with the poor people of Israel, and we visit sick Gentiles as well as the sick of Israel and we bury the dead of the Gentiles as well as the dead of Israel, because of the ways of peace." (Gitin 61a)





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Edit:



Incandescent

You are revealing problems with your whole line of commenting!



First your avatar name was never in JPA, certainly not long enough for any of the regulars to spot it.



Second you & nor anyone can tell, who rushes to who's aid. Reporting in YA (not just JPA, YA) is not public. I don't know who reports what, beyond if they tell me. Every group has some of it's hate messages at it removed, others aren't, so you can't judge that way.



If you had been in JPA for any stretch, you'd know all the violence messages get the same attention no matter who's the object of them. However the anti-jewish ones that are truly gross tend to get attention from non-JPA answerers as can be seen in the answers - so maybe that's where you see a difference in them going away.



Third & most importantly, you would know you could have & should have brought up issues at the time. Complaining here shows lack of having been in the group or figuring out what it is about - that people TALK to each other & challenge each other. If you saw nasty comments on paganism from members it's your JOB to speak up.



Fourth - Leaving without a word & then ranting at the group is exactly the kind of YA behavior that the group tries to be different than. I & no one was suggesting posting the avatar name, but send it to someone in the group you trust (except I don't think such a thing exists. I would have noticed a comment like that by now, if it was regular.)



Even if someone isn't in JPA - they could speak to members & say something.



You won't tell anyone about the problem specifically, but you will rant at the group as awful for it? That's not JPA like & it's making it look like you weren't part of to any extent & didn't get to know the group.



==========================

Rico

I can see that happening -- a simple misunderstanding of wording, which happens with writings. Too bad he didn't take time ask anyone instead of deciding. Incandescent - again - we'd be listening if there's a problem to address.

Answer 9

The end result is that there are several pagans who've learned a good deal about Judaism. There's usually at least one who takes on the role of getting decent information on the plethora of anti-Jewish questions that are posted on Shabbes and other times when we need to be off-line, like Yom Kippur.



It wasn't the best choice of names and, given history, it was probably foolish to provide a target by creating a 'group', no matter how open or unorganized.



It's not wrong, though, to fight misinformation. Or join with others to do so.

Answer 10

It's "Jews, Pagans, and Allies"; it began as "Jewish Pagan Alliance", but was opened up to be more inclusive.



I'm not a Jew, but I get the gist of what you're saying, they aren't supposed to make "common cause" with non-Jews, right? I don't think correcting misinformation about other faiths is something Judaism has a problem with.



Starred for my more knowledgeable Contacts.

Answer 11

Apparently it was started by a jew and a Pagan to counter the bias towards both groups on Answers, however the Pagans stick up for the jews, but never get any support in return so basically it is one big fat sham.



As clearly indicated by arc light up there, Pagans trained to answer anti jew questions, and thats basically it.



The pagans however have to stand on their own feet and fight their own battles.



ETA: Really, Im wrong? I thought the comments by one of your JPA members stating that heathens were unsophisticated rubes clearly signified otherwise.



-------



I wont post the users name as I dont want to be seen as attacking another member, but as I used to be a member of the JPA before I had my account deleted, I know that he is one of your most active members.



The fact remains that while any posts could be considered vaguely anti-semitic are quickly reported and disappear, posts that are clearly anti-pagan, accusing us of child sacrifice, devil worship, etc are allowed to stand. Time and time again I see Pagans rush to answer and respond to (or report as requested by your group) anti-semitic questions and comments, and yet no Jews seem to be inclined to return the favour. Yet we are insulted on more than one occasion, by comments such by other JPA members such as "only one true G-d" and that we pagans are mislead and worship idols.



It is fair enough to have a group that seeks to right wrongs, and there should be no place for anti-semiticism but to say the JPA has the welfare of pagans in mind is a lie.

Answer 12

Jewish Princesses Association?



Well Disney has one.

Answer 13

Jew Protection Agency. :P



They need protection from a hateful world.

Answer 14

I strive to be respectful and tolerant of the right of individuals and groups to have their own unadulterated culture, customs and beliefs. My tolerance extends to the point where the expression of those beliefs violate certain standards of behaviors: If they attempt to violate another’s civil rights, seek to incite harm to anyone, willfully deceive another or misrepresent the beliefs of others then my tolerance ceases.



This is a question forum where people ask questions to learn. If the logic of the asker is taken in full meaning, he shouldn't be asking or "instructing" above. However, what he's posted is not correct on many levels. ( It is astonishing that someone who uses the name "crusader" has any connection to Judaism in the first place, that would be like a black man using Grand Wizard of the KKK )



Living as a light unto the nations as a member of a covenant people who are not only scattered across the world in a world where we have always been a minority means we are also obligated to work with all other humans if we're going to have any effectiveness with tikkun olam. (repair of the world) I'm not going to define every aspect of Jewish faith here or even go into detail why the asker's question so openly reveals that it comes from someone who displays less knowledge of halacha than some of our Gentile friends have shown here, but I will explain one term he uses above. Avodah zarah is the prophibition of idol worship, and it is the first of the Noahide laws.

Jews speaking out to aide any human being who is wrongfully being assaulted whether verbally or physically is a moral obligation that we have.

"They said of Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakai that no man ever greeted him

first, even idol worshippers in the market" [i.e., Rabbi Yochanan ben

Zakai was the first to greet every person, even idol worshippers]

(Berachot 17).

"[it is proper to] support the idol worshippers during the sabbatical

year …. and to inquire after their welfare [commentators: even on the

days of the holidays of their idols, even if they do not keep the

seven Noahide commandments] because of the ways of peace." (Shevi'it

4,3)

'We support poor Gentiles with the poor people of Israel, and we

visit sick Gentiles as well as the sick of Israel and we bury the

dead of the Gentiles as well as the dead of Israel, because of the

ways of peace." (Gitin 61a)

Because our obligation as Jews means that we must strive to live as an example of righteousness to lead the world to justice and mercy for all peoples, means that we do not idly stand by when anyone's basic human rights are violated.

Spreading willful misinformation and bigotry about the beliefs of others for the purpose of spreading hatred and inciting violence is not only extremely disruptive for Yahoo Answers and violates their rules, it is something that beleiving Jews may not remain silent in the face of it.



The Gentiles who correct misinformation do so out of their own conscience and I've not usually seen them go beyond the basics to simply help prevent the spread of Jew hate. If it weren't for good Gentiles who have spoken up in the past many times in history to help stop Jew hate and who have also given their lives for us..the Jews as a people wouldn't be here. I suggest you read up a little on King Cyrus the Persian for just one Biblical example of a Gentile who helped Jews and Judaism survive.



Words have the power to create hate and violence or to create respect and civility within the psyche of the person reading and depending on their perspective and life experience.



I've never liked the name of the group because I don't think any particular religion or people should be named specifically if it is for all peoples.The Allies of the Jews, Pagans and Allies are one's I think who are more likely overlooked sometimes but not out of any sense of seeing them as secondary but because there is simply so much hate here to "go around"., but I've spent 2 years in Y/A making friends with perhaps most of the members of them because I've found kindred spirits in people who support actually behaving like respectful adults. The members of the group often have religions that are quite conflicting and some even don't particularly like the religions of a few others ..but we are grown ups who have a sense of right and wrong and respect for the rights of others to behave with civility to one another despite our religious differences. We don't proselytize or demand that anyone accept our religion as right and we aren't asked to do this by others.



It isn't just Jews and Pagans, but also a great many Allies ( of perhaps a dozen different peoples and religions and also atheists) I wasn't a "member" for a long time despite the fact that I was already connected to most of them beforehand..people who share in ethics/values often find connections. I was so often named as a JPA I finally did join up ..the name of the group put me off because I knew people like this asker and others like one of the respondents here would find ways to take that group name and pervert it. I jokingly mocked the name with in my own punny way when it first began..and of course, my over the top acronym suggestion as to what to call the group was wisely nixed. for those of you who recall it :) although I do feel like pulling it out for this q.



I have Native friends from several different nations, atheist, Christian

Wiccan, Pagan,Buddist, Hindu, Muslim Zoroastrian. , deist and Pantheist or two in the mix. and I know I'm leaving someone out so forgive me...and I don't try to follow their paths but I do try to learn from them about what they are really all about and help them learn from me as Yahoo Answers is intended. I star questions for these contacts so that they can give accurate information about their beliefs. Jews don’t ask or expect others to teach Judaism here and Jews aren’t expected to teach about other religions here. That has NEVER been the purpose of the group. We are here to support one another’s basic human rights as peoples and the use of Yahoo Answers as it's guidelines INTEND.. (see my first paragraph) If I see someone posting rabid bigotry against any of them I report it. Less than half of the rabid bigotry posted to any group is actually removed. It isn't only posts saying that Jews should die, but the shocking number of posts advocating violence to Native Americans and atheists that have really given me pause. If that makes me a report monkey just give me a banana. I do not ever report silliness or even misinformation..I only report egregious violations that incite bigotry and violence.

I see it as sort of the Anti Defamation League of Yahoo in one regard..while we aren't anything more than a loose association of contacts who star q's for one another to answer, we stand strong against bigotry to ANYONE of any belief or no belief.

Like other groups that promote respect and tolerance, those who are at odds with that will find ways to try to discredit and defame those who expose them.

Think about how Morris Dees and the Southern Poverty Law Center are demonized by the hate groups he exposes.

Recently there have been a spate of avatars appearing with JPA in them, and people claiming "membership" who have been working hard at just such efforts. Putting JPA under your screen name doesn't prove to anyone you're doing what the purpose of this loose association of contacts has formed to do. Promote use of YA for it's stated use. I find it odd that the asker states he "continually" sees someone state that a Jew who converts to Christianity no longer Jewish,(meaning they aren't of the Jewish FAITH any longer) then he would know those answers have always been in direct response to people who have been PROMOTING what he is condemning in his very first additional detail, avodah zarah..worship that is directly forbidden as one of the sins for which a Jew would die rather than commit!



Worship of a man as a god is forbidden in Judaism. That is something that millions of Jews have indeed given their life up rather than commit.



"Even medieval Jews understood very well that Christianity is avodah zarah of a special type. The tosafists assert that although a Christian pronouncing the name of Jesus in an oath would be taking the name of "another god," it is nonetheless the case that when Christians say the word "God," they have in mind the Creator of heaven and earth. Some later authorities took the continuation of that Tosafot to mean that this special type of avodah zarah is forbidden to Jews but permissible to gentiles, so that a non-Jew who engages in Christian worship commits no sin" Rabbi Avrohom Yeshaya Karelitz



I find it very odd that the CRUSADER here would write a question in a manner that could so easily be used to promote worship of Christian doctrine as permissibly "Jewish".