Atheists: what say ye about this Achilles Heel with regards to evolution?

Question

"In order to begin evolution by natural selection, you need a self-replicating unit. But the cell and its DNA blueprint are too complicated by far to have arisen through chance chemical reactions. The odds of even a single protein forming by accident are astronomical. "

http://cnsnews.com/commentary/eric-metaxas/evolution-just-got-harder-defend

Answer 1

''evolution'' can't even start

Answer 2

I think you need to reread your question back to yourself to realise the mistake you've made here.

Go on, I'll be nice and point it out to you:



"In order to begin evolution by natural selection..."



That's right - in order to BEGIN evolution. Your quote deals with the pre-evolutionary period.

Evolution is the natural mechanism by which species change their morphology over time. It does not, and never has attempted to answer how life first developed as it has never been part of it's theoretical remit.

What you are asking about is the concept of abiogenesis. Abiogenesis is a different mechanism to evolution and trying to poke holes in one does not invalidate or even ruffle the feathers of the other.



So to fully answer this question, this does not in any way constitute an Achilles heel with regards to evolution as the question does not concern evolutionary theory in the first place. One might as well complain over why Electrical theory doesn't explain why hot air balloons rise.



Ask it again except about abiogenesis and maybe you'll get more useful answers.

Or then again, since we know precious little about abiogenesis you probably won't get much of use.

Answer 3

Well first of all, evolution is a reality no matter how life started. Anyway. Every so often, someone comes up with the statement "the formation of any enzyme by chance is nearly impossible, therefore abiogenesis is impossible". Often they cite an impressive looking calculation from the astrophysicist Fred Hoyle, or trot out something called "Borel's Law" to prove that life is statistically impossible. These people, including Fred, have committed one or more of the following errors.

Problems with the creationists' "it's so improbable" calculations



1) They calculate the probability of the formation of a "modern" protein, or even a complete bacterium with all "modern" proteins, by random events. This is not the abiogenesis theory at all.



2) They assume that there is a fixed number of proteins, with fixed sequences for each protein, that are required for life.



3) They calculate the probability of sequential trials, rather than simultaneous trials.



4) They misunderstand what is meant by a probability calculation.



5) They seriously underestimate the number of functional enzymes/ribozymes present in a group of random sequences.



http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html

Answer 4

Which extremist sect or cult indoctrinated you to believe that God was not clever enough to use the big bang, evolution and science as his tools?



The Pope, Catholic Church, Church of England and mainstream churches all accept the big bang and evolution!



Lord Carey the former Archbishop of Canterbury put it rather well – “Creationism is the fruit of a fundamentalist approach to scripture, ignoring scholarship and critical learning, and confusing different understandings of truth”!



Nice that Christians and atheists can agree and laugh together but sadly at God’s expense!



You obviously have many years of school still to come so you better hope the final judgment does not come before you complete your education or you will be spending eternity with SATAN!

Answer 5

And yet here we are. The problem with this mode of thinking is that you are trying to quantify something that has happened with your belief that it could not happen without intervention from some outside source. When a tree falls in the forest if there is nobody there to hear it, does it make a noise? This is a simplified version of your question and should help you realize that we are not as important as you think. The tree made a noise and nature does what nature does with or without us and will continue to do whatever it does long after we are gone. Hope this helps.

Answer 6

Ah yes, so you want to disprove evolution by talking about stuff that has NOTHING to do with evolution. Seriously, the origin of life has nothing to do with evolution. It's like you trying to say gravity doesn't exist because we don't know what started the Big Bang; it's completely irrelevant to the argument and just plain wrong. And experiments have been done that show that proteins and even RNA can spontaneously form under primordial-Earth-like conditions.

Answer 7

Metaxas isn't a biologist or even a scientist - if he is so knowledgeable about the field of natural science you wonder why he has never took the time to do any formal study. It's one thing preaching to the creationists on a blog but really if he has a ground breaking new hypothesis he should be telling it to the scientific community then it can be properly scrutinised by professionals.

Answer 8

You have to understand, according to quantum theory, the universe is just computing probabilities. Its only a mater of time and place before a self-replicating molecule comes into existence. The current replicating molecules (due to evolution) are far more complex than those that first existed.

Answer 9

Neither they nor you have read anything intelligent. The Miller/Urey experiments in 1956 and the several dozen experiments since then have proven "without any doubt" that your statement is an absurd lie. It has been done, it has been proven and EVERY aspect of Abiogenesis has been proven by the University of Manchester. You and they should read something intelligent, preferably from this century.

Answer 10

"But the cell and its DNA blueprint are too complicated by far to have arisen through chance chemical reactions"



nobody ever said they did - they evolved getting more an more complicated



"The odds of even a single protein forming by accident are astronomical. " "



Nobody ever said they formed by accident



(I would advise you read a book about evolution - cos you aint grasped it yet



(and you have laugh when theists repeat the bullsh//t about the odds - cos its meaningless except to show they have no idea.



"you" exist cos 1 egg from your mother was fertilised by 1 sperm from your father

If it had been fertilised by a different sperm then "you" would never have been born - somebody else would

(If you have any brothers/sisters - THATS why they are different from you)

("you" = the things that make you totally different from anybody that has ever existed or ever will)

HOWEVER there are around 100million sperm in every ejaculation

so the odds of "you" being born were 100mill against = = 10^8

same goes for your mother, father and grandparents

So THAT means the odds against "you" being born were

10^8(for you) x10^8(for your father)x10^8( for your mother)x10^8(for your father's father)x10^8( for your father';s mother)x10^8(for your mother's father)x10^8( for your mother's mother)



I make that 10^56



So the odds against "you" being born just 3 generations after your great grandparents were 10^56 against



THAT IS- The odds against "you" being born at all are so huge that "you" shouldnt be here at all

But "you" are here aint you?

and THATS just for 3 generations

Now try to work out the odds of "you" being born from your ancestors say just 10 generations ago

And THATS only 250 years ago (at say 25 years for each generation)

what about say 1000 years ago = 40 generations?

what about 2000 years ago = 80 generations

( A hint- you cant calculate it- cos you cannot account for common ancestors in your ancestors (eg. when say 2nd cousins marry they have common ancestors not ones unique to themselves and not their spouse)

If you assume all of your ancestors had unique ancestors you quickly get to a point where you have more ancestors than the population of the earth)

Answer 11

I don't say anything about it - I don't believe in a god but that doesn't make me a qualified biologist, so I can't really comment.



Not having sufficient knowledge on a subject doesn't stop wankers like you from making up any old shite, though, does it?

Answer 12

I have to question the integrity of the source for this, who are CNS news and do they have an ulterior motive for 'reporting' this story in the way they have?



As an aside and as previous answers have said this has nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with evolutionary biology, which most religions accept.

Answer 13

And Eric Metaxas published this paper in Nature, or the Life Science Journal did he. Oh no he published it in a blog. And where did he get his life sciences degree. Oh he hasn't got one. And Dr. Mayer his life science credentials, oh his Ph.D. is in history. Hang on I've just got to get a plumber to fix my car.

Answer 14

Why the archaic terminology? Dost thou normally prate in such manner?

Rather than argue over trivia, why not present them with the evidence of a transformed life?

Answer 15

"The odds of even a single protein forming by accident are astronomical. " yet it happened..the lottery has very high odds of winning yet people still win...you have no understanding of odds..what i think is funny is you people need proof for evolution yet you worship a god on faith (no proof needed).btw evolution has tons of proof for it,you just have a bias mind towards it.

Answer 16

What are the chances that horrible infections and diseases happen?



If not by random chance, who is responsible for "designing" flesh-eating-bacteria and why are the victims so random, pray tell?



The WHO would love your insightful input.

Answer 17

Yeah this has been discussed to death already and of course has nothing to do with atheists but has to do with biologists.

Answer 18

CNS "News" is even worse than Fox "News". Get your facts from a better source.

Answer 19

aliens did it then...we 1 big experiment created by intellectually superior beings

Answer 20

"So you're saying there's a chance!"



-Dumb and Dumber

Answer 21

(loosens chin strap and takes off helmet)