Question:
How would the atheist community debunk this particular evidence?
?
2014-03-11 14:41:22 UTC
I know how some people here have difficulty reading more than a few sentences, if this is too much for you to read, please don't bother to respond, thanks.

In the 1940s an Italian mystic, Maria Valtorta, had a series of visions about the life of Christ which she recorded in notebooks and which were later compiled into books known in English as The Poem of the Man God. In some of the visions Valtorta gives offhand descriptions of various stars, planets, and constellations which she sees in the sky.

In the 90s a Purdue physics professor, Lonnie VanZandt, used modern planetary software to determine whether these astronomical observations Valtorta makes of the night sky were internally consistent chronologically and if they could be used to date the narrative. He wrote his findings in a report which can be found here at the Purdue website:
https://engineering.purdue.edu/~zak/Van_Zandt.pdf

In the report he writes the following:

"As it happens, if we make use of a number of incidental bits of information the Poem provides in various places about the skies, we can unambiguously date the narrative solely by astronomical calculations. The only internal inconsistencies encountered are occasional confusion about the precise phase of the moon. That is, in at least one place, Valtorta, seeing a half-disk of the Moon in the sky calls it first quarter when subsequent developments show it to be actually in third quarter. Such irregularities in interpretation in no way threaten the validity of the Poem; the actual observed conditions are all self consistent.
...
The calculations which have led to such precise answers have been performed on a personal computer using one of a number of available planetarium programs. This wonderful software has more than simplified the chore of reducing Valtorta's accidental mentions of celestial objects to a definite calendar, it has made it the work of a few evenings rather than a long career. Although I am by profession a theoretical physicist and trained in such mathematical manipulation, the sheer bulk of it would have been daunting. I doubt that the work would have been done without the computer.
...
That Valtorta, who was by all accounts mystified by a slide rule, and had no personal computer nor any other sort of calculating engine to use, could have carried out the sea of arithmetical operations necessary ... must tax the credulity of even the immovable atheist more than the alternative that Jesus showed it to her. In the words of Sherlock Holmes, when you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however merely improbable, must be true."


I certainly don't expect any instantaneous conversions or anything, I am just very curious, how would the atheist community debunk this one? This uneducated and bed-ridden women accurately described the night skies of 2,000 years ago without any sort of calculating device or astronomical expertise. And not only that but also intriguing is the fact that she mentions various villages of ancient Palestine which were unknown at the time of her writing and were subsequently discovered by modern archaeology after her death. Barring the supernatural, how can this be explained?

More info can be found here on the wiki page about these books:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Poem_of_the_Man_God#Astronomical_analysis
Seventeen answers:
marsel_duchamp
2014-03-11 15:14:38 UTC
http://www.ewtn.com/library/scriptur/valtorta.txt



There are hits and misses in the work. It also sounds like the priests who transcribed it were a tad dishonest as well. Lying for god has been going on a long time.

Lots of evidence that it is just made up.
2014-03-11 14:46:09 UTC
At least you posted a .edu, but it still isn't a scientific peer-review paper, but I will waste time going through it to see if there is anything to it. However I doubt it.



In any case though, being right about astronomy doesn't prove anything about Jesus. People way back predicted that the planets revolved around the sun, so what?



edit:



Ok, I have skimmed through quite a bit, and it seems to be making a lot of claims based on the idea that they can accurately predict how fast planets orbit etc. Though I have no doubt they can do that, I am in no position to judge whether or not what they are telling me is true. If this was a fascinating truth that you assert it is, I find it hard to believe that countless other Christians and Scientists have just ignored it for so long...
?
2014-03-11 14:46:44 UTC
"...must tax the credulity of even the immovable atheist more than the alternative that Jesus showed it to her."



Why did it have to be Jesus? Why not Odin, or Poseidon?



Also, this is an Argument from Authority fallacy: just because one man's opinion, no matter how established he is in the field of theoretical physics, is that Jesus may have told her a vast amount of mathematical equations DOES NOT MEAN IT IS TRUE.



And seriously, why would Jesus be telling some Italian woman math?
2014-03-11 14:44:57 UTC
Let's see what the Vatican had to say...



""Her handwritten notebooks containing close to 700 reputed episodes in the life of Jesus were typed on separate pages by her priest and reassembled, given that they had no temporal order, and became the basis of her 5,000-page controversial book The Poem of the Man God. The Holy See placed the work on the Index of Prohibited Books and the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano accompanied publication of this decree with an article that called the book a badly fictionalized life of Jesus.""
?
2014-03-12 08:13:19 UTC
But these claims actually make Chrsitianity a laughingstock!



Some years ago the Vatican instituted a special committee to examine people who claimed visions, revelations and miracles!



There fist requirement is for the claimant to undergo a full psychiatric assessment! Not even the church believes the silly claims and funnily enough since the psychiatric requirement there have been no such claims!
?
2014-03-11 14:45:55 UTC
The Purdue link is clearly not a peer-reviewed published paper and, since it's from an engineering college, I'm not sure why it's relevant. Anyway it doesn't verify that there was a deity involved.



Please link to a published scientific paper which verifies your claims.



Until I see valid evidence that a deity is responsible for this alleged event, I'm reserving the right to consider the whole thing a bunch of bollocks.
Ricardo
2014-03-11 15:24:49 UTC
Evidence of what? Some one got lucky. About 6000 years ago the Sumerian knew all 9 planets and the color of Neptune.



- I certainly don't expect any instantaneous conversions or anything



No problem, intelligence will preclude that.



- I am just very curious, how would the atheist community debunk this one?



Again, debunk what?



- This uneducated and bed-ridden women accurately described the night skies of 2,000 years ago without any sort of calculating device or astronomical expertise.



Again, so what?



- Barring the supernatural, how can this be explained?



So what? Edgar Cayce did the same thing.
David B
2014-03-11 14:57:24 UTC
If God wants people to believe in Him, He will do something obvious and high-profile. Perhaps He will visit Washington D.C. and give a speech and perform miracles in front of a crowd while the television cameras are recording it for live television.



God is not going to hide the evidence of His existence in the poetry of an obscure Italian mystic.
?
2014-03-11 14:43:58 UTC
Okay just one question...



How does the fact that she may have been right about some basic astronomy (as alot of Mystics are) mean she had a vision of God?
?
2014-03-11 14:46:18 UTC
Seems more likely this woman was an astronomer with knowledge of the heavens who decided to perpetrate a hoax. As evidenced, by the Purdue professor who wrote that paper, such planetary positions would be known to anyone who understood astronomy.
Harkness
2014-03-11 15:03:22 UTC
"For instance, Jesus uses screwdrivers (Vol. 1, pp. 195, 223), centuries before screws existed."



Seems like fiction to me.



The first paragraph of the report you quoted appears to be an admission of fudging to get the answers he wanted.
CAPS LOCK
2014-03-11 15:08:03 UTC
I reject the notion that observation of the stars was not possible "without a computer" or "without the assistance of modern complex astronomical computer algorithms." There is nothing in that poem that is specific to the point of requiring a computer and only a computer to compute.
samantha
2014-03-11 14:47:40 UTC
why would we "need" to debunk it.. nothing about that story "proves" that there was any supernatural cause.



Just because i don't have an answer does not mean that "God Did It"....
2014-03-11 14:45:55 UTC
Now you owe me after I wasted the time to read that.

Dishonest abounds, as does delusion.

Remember that was done for the money it generates.

Got your dime too didn't they?
?
2014-03-11 14:45:05 UTC
Funny how the Vatican confirmed the vision to be "not of supernatural origin." You'd think they would jump on anything that would appear to confirm their teachings.
Mittens
2014-03-11 14:57:02 UTC
You might want to get yourself a dictionary and look up the word 'evidence'.
2014-03-11 14:54:26 UTC
How do you explain my visions of Voldemort's dwelling place with his dominions?


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