Question:
Isn't atheist claim of "God doesn't exist" flawed to begin with?
Traveler
2007-12-12 11:02:10 UTC
Logically speaking, don't you need to have a premises that a thing to exist to dispute it's existance. Even if God was just an invention of men, even if God was only an imagionation to cover the fear of the unknown, shouldn't the concept of God has to exist before disputing its existance? Wouldn't it be more logical for atheists to claim "God no longer exists" or "God is dead" than "God doesn't exist?
32 answers:
2007-12-12 11:06:57 UTC
First, that's not what atheists claim.



Even if it was, it wouldn't matter. You don't need an ontological commitment to a being like God in order to speak of it (him?). If you don't believe me, I suggest you read W.V.O. Quine's article "On What There Is" and then discuss this.



Basically, the idea is that we only need a commitment to the uninstantiated property of "Godliness" or "God-ness" or something along those lines.
tuyet n
2007-12-12 11:04:53 UTC
I've never personally met an atheist who claims that "God no longer exists" or "God is dead". And since the word simply means "not theist" it neither explicitly nor implicitly says someone thinks god doesn't exist. I don't believe in a Christian god or any other. That's all there is. Are you making an argument for all mythical gods?



You can cue the people who are going to cry that regardless of what they say atheists really do believe this or that atheists actually believe in god or even that the word means something completely different that they just made up.



==



"It was a merely a question of logic."



The first problem with logic in this thread was yours. You generalized about a group who share only a single commonality which is a lack of belief in deities. Some atheists may make the claims you wrote. But far from all do. In fact the only atheists I've ever seen claim any of these are here.



==

"

Can you say God doesn't exists without using a word God or any set of words describing God?"



No... no I couldn't. Just as I couldn't say anything without saying it. I think I know what you meant but you certainly said something entirely different. But like most atheists I don't say this or anything else you have claimed all atheists say and yet we're still atheists.
lee s
2007-12-12 11:11:08 UTC
if a society were raised on an island completely devoid of all human contact, kinda Jungle Book style, they would have no concept of god, it is something that is implanted in your mind at a very young age in most societies. so the concept of god is not in all consciousness, it was merely started by a few and spead to the masses through fear and means of explaning the unexplainable. So if no one had ever thought to explain things they didnt understand through some omnipotent deity, then the concept would never exist in the first place. I think if we raised a group of people with access to all knowledege scientific and mathematic that we have today isolated form the rest of the world, they would be a society that believes in science, not religion.
Free Radical
2007-12-12 11:07:50 UTC
just because the concept or the perception of something exists does not mean that such a thing exists in reality. an LSD hallucination is real to the person on drugs, but not real in an absolute sense.



some humans have the unique ability to grapple with concepts that they know are a convention of language or fictions, even while discussing them. unfortunately others are locked in a rigid view of things that perverts even their logic, when they finally do try and bring it out and exercise it.



you have a point with the phrasing of "god is dead", or "god no longer exists", but your point is one of grammatical or linguistic integrity, not reality. one only needs 2 people with a common understanding of the supposed attributes that a "god" would or could have to discuss such a concept.
2007-12-12 11:09:03 UTC
Thats to presume God existed in the first place. God is an invention of man, and without man he wouldnt exist. A concept does not count as a deity. God is simply what deluded people name the emotion of hope.
2007-12-12 12:46:38 UTC
Actually I say that I lack a belief in gods. I deliberately do not say "god does not exist" because xians like yourself like to play the semantics game.



You could apply your argument to any mythical or fictional being.



Zeus does not exist

So by your argument Zeus really does exist.

Or Voldemort does not exist. So Voldemort really does exist

How about the Invisible Pink Unicorn?

Leprechuans?

Gremlins?



No dieties have ever existed and unless you can provide (empircal) evidence to suggest otherwise I have no reason to change my view.
word
2007-12-12 11:14:28 UTC
God exists in the minds of believers, but does not exist in reality. It makes less sense to say that "God no longer exists" or "God is dead, rejoice!", because it claims that God once did exist and no longer does... But God exists today just as much as God existed since the beginning of the creation of gods. No less (because God still exists in the minds of believers), no more (because God still doesn't exist in reality)
steve what
2007-12-12 11:13:18 UTC
No, see my answer for "absence of god, absence of proof". Atheists use the absence of evidence, just as believers do, to justify their position. Believers make the mistake of constructing a god that their own references can't support, thus they paint targets on their backs.



Saying that God is dead is illogical. Only 'god dosn't exist and never has' is logical and actually supportable with linear logic.
2007-12-12 11:07:11 UTC
No, something does not have to exist for there to be a question of it's existence. The idea of God may exist, the word God may exist, but God, as an entity does not have to.
Recreant- father of fairies
2007-12-12 11:13:34 UTC
Dear god ( and I use that term with the fullest sense of irony), did you really think this was a good argument? Are you really equating concept with reality?



In order for you to say that dragons (insert your chosen disbelief) don't exist, don't you first need to admit that dragons exist? NO, of course not!
Azure AM
2007-12-12 11:17:25 UTC
By saying "God no longer exists" and "God is dead", we would be agreeing that God existed at one point or another. He didn't and doesn't.
2007-12-12 11:05:08 UTC
Huh?



God doesn't exist. That's pretty straightforward.



"don't you need to have a premises that a thing to exist to dispute it's existance."



Not at all.



There's a difference between "God" and "the concept of God". The concept exists, of course - there are millions and millions of people who believe that there are gods. That doesn't bear on the existence of gods themselves, of course, unless by "God" you simply mean "belief in God".
novangelis
2007-12-12 12:01:30 UTC
Now replace "God" with "the Flying Spaghetti Monster". Your semantic juggling comes up with the same results. What you have is meaningless wordplay.
oldwise1
2007-12-12 11:09:49 UTC
god would have had to exist at some point in time to state that "god is dead" or "god no longer exists". here you go "there is no god to have ever existed."
2007-12-12 11:05:47 UTC
God is nothing but a figment of the imagination of those who believe in such a thing...



god does not transcend the imaginations of those who believe...



it's like someone invented the ultimate imaginary friend, and others have adopted it...
ibushido
2007-12-12 11:07:55 UTC
Atheism is a lack of belief in supernatural deities. If you're going to ask questions based only on your assumptions, then you will just be demonstrating your own ignorance.
2007-12-12 11:14:53 UTC
Purple spotted gorillas from mars don't exist. Did I suddenly will them into existance, only to wipe them out?
mam2121
2007-12-12 11:08:24 UTC
Semantic drivel. What is your point?



I do not believe in god, just as you do not believe in the tooth fairy. Nobody says they don't believe in the concept of god or the tooth fairy - that's just absurd.
Gyspy
2007-12-12 11:08:27 UTC
logically if a person goes around lying and another person calls them a liar then that's enough to disprove the lie itself.... it's enough to know the christians are lying to know there is no god... christians lie about god... for there is none... works for me...
t_rex_is_mad
2007-12-12 11:07:02 UTC
No.



Would you have to first believe that spongy little aliens lived on the moon in order to say that you don't believe they do?
Freethinking Liberal
2007-12-12 11:10:54 UTC
So Zeus no longer exists and Zeus is dead. mmmm think about it.
Trevor K
2007-12-12 11:12:48 UTC
saying god doesnt exsist is like saying monsters dont exsist. we all no there is no such thing as lets say godzilla in real life, but he still exsists in the minds of people to entertain them.
stuck in the middle
2007-12-12 11:07:27 UTC
No, and "peter pan" also does not exist, just because some wrote a book about him.
?
2007-12-12 11:07:02 UTC
"don't you need to have a premises that a thing to exist to dispute it's existance"



So, according to your "logic", Santa, unicorns, leprechauns, and Oz exists then?
Alex - Æsahættr
2007-12-12 11:05:38 UTC
So you're saying that he does exist, but only in someones imagination?...
2007-12-12 11:05:42 UTC
I always say god doesn't exist. Because he didn't, doesn't.
Bad Liberal
2007-12-12 11:06:41 UTC
No gods have never existed.



I can't unpick your knotted logic to work out how you might object to that.
2007-12-12 11:13:05 UTC
What? Do you think fairies exist? I hope you're saying no...
2007-12-12 11:07:54 UTC
Very good point to them we just pop out of no where you know poof and we just lived from there. They have alot of flaws themselves too many...
2007-12-12 11:52:30 UTC
*Sigh*....what a silly question....
the_answer
2007-12-12 11:47:52 UTC
A Note For All Those Who Are Atheists!!!



Consider an illustration. Go back to grade school when you were assigned mathematics homework. You were given instructions on how to do it. In fact, you and the rest of your classmates did a couple of problems on the blackboard. You are familiar with the subject at hand. Now, you have to show that you know your stuff by doing some problems for homework.



However, you decide not to even attempt the assignment because you did not understand it. There were plenty of aids to help you complete your assignment. You just got lazy. What would you expect as a grade for that assignment? Certainly, you should not expect anything higher than a zero or F as a grade. There is no excuse as to why you did not do your homework and you were deserving of being penalized.



Similarly, the truth is available for all of us and there is no excuse for not knowing about the Grand Creator.



Who are without excuse? Let the scriptures answer: “What can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible [essence], namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.” (Romans 1:19, 20, Revised Standard Version)



Yes, “they are without excuse,” those who deny the existence of the true and living God, Jehovah. ATHEISTS are on the increase according to Gallup polls. False religion has repelled many people from coming to know God. But the truth is now available to all honest-hearted persons. So there is NO excuse for not knowing the Creator and Supreme Sovereign of the universe, Jehovah God. Why can it be said that they are without excuse?



Because creation testifies to God’s existence: “His invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are understood by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship.” Jehovah’s prophet admonishes: “Lift up your eyes on high, and see who hath created these.”



Does not what we see in the sky testify to Jehovah’s power? Why, even a person with low intelligence who sees an automobile for the first time does not believe that all its parts just happened to put themselves together. There had to be intelligent supervision to produce such a complex creation; yet how much more complex is the least of God’s creation that our eyes behold in the sky! (Romans 1:20; Isaiah. 40:26, American Standard Version)



So the heavens speak of God’s glory: “The heavens [both the literal heavens and the “new heavens”] are telling the glory of God, and the sky shows forth the work of his hands. Day unto day pours forth speech, and night unto night declares knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard; yet their voice goes forth through all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” (Psalm 19:1-4, American Translation)



Jehovah’s power and other perfections may be known from the beauty, excellence, variety and immensity of his creation. And, indeed, the scale of perfections evident in the universe implies the existence of an absolute standard, a perfect Being. So as Christ’s apostle said: “They are without excuse.” (Romans 1:20)



Surely, such ones have no excuse for not knowing about the Creator. He is evident in many ways. Many just choose not to find out. Jehovah will annihilate all those not serving him by choice. What about the order and harmony?



The order in the universe speaks of God’s glory. Everything in nature is so definitely planned and has such a purposeful design that it shows intelligent planning. Why, it has taken the best minds of great scientists to discover only a few of the laws of nature. Are laws made by accident? What intelligent planning exists in regard to our earth! The sun’s distance from the earth is just right. The moon’s distance from the earth is just right. The earth is tilted on its axis just right. The mixture of gases is just right. The relationship between plants and animals is just right. What infinite wisdom is behind that cycle in nature! Animals take in oxygen, exhale it again combined in carbon dioxide while plants take in carbon dioxide and exhale oxygen. An accident? Unthinkable! What about the existence of life and intelligence?



The existence of living creatures whose nonexistence is possible implies the existence of a necessary Creator. Man cannot create life from the elements. Yet are we to think that the elements created man? We can take a lesson from the beasts, the birds and the fish. Said Job: “Ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the birds of the heavens, and they shall tell thee: or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee; and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. Who knoweth not in all these, that the hand of Jehovah hath wrought this?” (Job 12:7-10, American Standard)



Another reason why those who refuse to recognize Jehovah as Creator are without excuse: intelligence exists. If man arose without intelligent guidance, why should he have intelligence? Can unintelligence create intelligence? Why, even men with the keenest intelligence cannot create intelligence that is superior to their own. Oh, they have made robot brains. In the mathematical field they are superb. Yet they are not more intelligent than man. A distinguished mathematician and logician of Princeton University, Alonzo Church, has carefully analyzed electronic calculators and mechanical brains. He said: “No machine can ever solve all problems solvable by a live mathematician.” Yet atheists believe that intelligent man, though he cannot create life or even anything more intelligent than himself, was created by a force with no intelligence. Does it make sense?



To say that there is no Supreme Intelligence is to say that the universe has evolved something higher than itself, it has created intelligence. And to think that anything can create something it does not itself possess is the most vacuous kind of empty-headed reasoning. What about the Bible and its prophecies?



Still another reason why atheists are without excuse: They have the Bible, God’s revealed Word. Its prophecies and fulfillments alone prove that this is a Book whose authorship could not be of men. Before the mighty empire of Babylon fell, the Bible foretold it. (Jeremiah 51:37) The Bible foretold the successive rise of Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and the Anglo-American empire. (Daniel 8:3-25; Revelation 17:10-14)



The arguments of atheists show that they have not really studied the Bible. Rather, they have listened to the clergy of Christendom who have taught lies concerning Jehovah God, such as the one that he is the proprietor of a roasting compartment for human creatures called “purgatory.” This hell of literal fire and other false doctrines such as trinity and immortality of the soul have turned some people away from God even before they investigate his Word. The Bible does not teach such unreasonable doctrines. They are taught by false religion, not by true Christianity. The atheist has erred in that he has wrongly assumed that the false religions of Christendom are of God. Rather, they are of the Devil. (2 Corinthians 4:4)



So it does no good for the atheist to point to the ghastly persecutions, inquisitions and wars for which the so-called Christian religion has been responsible. The Bible declares such religions false: “They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works.” (Titus 1:16)



Atheists boast of being men of reason and vision. So did the ancient philosophers. Today’s atheists think in much the same foolish manner in which even the wisest of ancient philosophers discoursed about God, not excepting Socrates or Plato. Who can read their works without being struck with the empty-headedness of their reasonings, as well as with the stupidity of their nonsense when speaking about God? The Bible well says: “They did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their unintelligent heart became darkened.” So like the ancient philosophers of yesterday are the atheistic philosophers of today: “They are in darkness mentally, and alienated from the life that belongs to God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the insensibility of their hearts.” Who says there is no God? “The fool said in his heart, ‘There is no God.’” (Romans 1:21; Eph. 4:18; Psalm 14:1, American Translation)



Since there is compelling and overwhelming evidence that Jehovah is the true and living God, Creator and Supreme Sovereign of the universe, the plea of ignorance cannot be admitted in its full latitude except for idiots. The atheists cannot plead ignorance. The agnostics cannot plead ignorance. The evildoers cannot plead ignorance. The idolaters cannot plead ignorance. For if they are willing to exercise their faculties and employ their minds in diligent search, men have within their reach the means of coming to know Jehovah God. So God’s decree is: “They are without excuse.”



Now let’s see an atheist come up and challenge the above words, from the scriptures!





Source(s):



New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures



April 15, 1956 Watchtower Magazine

Published by Jehovah’s Witnesses

Article: “They Are Without Excuse”

Pages 229-232
2007-12-12 11:07:43 UTC
Please read your own question carefully.


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
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