Question to our Catholic friends. Is the word of God really subordinate to the church?

Question

The common belief among Catholics is that the word of God is subordinate to the traditions and interpretation of the church. The Old Testament scripture found in Psalm 138:2 says, "Thou has magnified Thy word above all Thy name."

Let's look at this as an algebraic equation. If a > b, and b > c, then a > c.

If the word of God is really ultimately subordinate to the authority of church (implying that it cannot mean anything outside of what the church says it means) and God's word is magnified above His name, then can it be said that the traditions of the church are magnified above God's name?

Also, one should read 1 Timothy 3:15 very carefully before asserting that it gives the church the authority over God's word. The verse says, " . . which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the TRUTH." Notice it does not say the pillar and support of the word of God. The truth is contained in the word of God. But Jesus Himself is also the Truth, as John 14:6 says. And the Holy Spirit is called "the Spirit of truth". So if this verse from 1 Timothy is to be used to say that the word of God is subordinate to the church, then it can also mean that Jesus is subordinate to the church, and the Spirit of truth is subordinate to the church. For the word of God is the truth, Jesus is the truth, and the Spirit of truth is truth.

The apparent meaning of the pillar and support of the truth is that the church exists to uphold the truth, not define it. For example, a pillar and the supporting members may hold up a roof, but it does not "define" the roof. The roof is defined by the builder of the roof and the building materials used in the roof. The pillars and supports simply hold it up so that it accomplishes it's purpose. And the church's function is to uphold the word of God so that it goes forth and accomplishes the purpose for which God has ordained.

And so my point is that Jesus and the Spirit are not subordinate to the church, and neither is the word of God, which is magnified above God's name.

Answer 1

"The common belief among Catholics is that the word of God is subordinate to the traditions and interpretation of the church."



Actually, that is not an accurate picture of the Catholic Church's position on Scripture and Tradition. It is right that Protestants should hold the highest authority to God's word. However, it is Protestants who have delegated the word of God as coming from Scripture only. The Catholic and Orthodox positions have always been that the word of God has passed onto us in two ways, through Scripture and Tradition. And, when I say Tradition I mean so with a capital "T". Capital T traditions are Traditions that come to us from the Apostles. We also have small "t" traditions that do not come from the Apostles and we do not claim these are the word of God or that they can not be changed. Priestly celibacy for instance is a small t tradition that can be changed. It is considered a discipline.



However, Tradition with a capital "T" can not be changed because these Traditions, just like Scripture, were handed onto us from the Apostles themselves. Examples of these Traditions are the Eucharist and the Mass.



Tradition and Scripture can not conflict since they come from the same source, namely the Apostles. Instead, they support each other. They are two supports which the Church rests on. The right to interpret scripture authoritatively, something that you also alluded to, is also the right of the Church guided by the Holy Spirit. Without God giving us an authoritative interpretation of Scripture on key elements then all you have is the opinions of men. Thus, it is necessary that God should provide some means, some authority in the Church to settle matters of interpretation and theological issues among Christians. If Scripture was self-interpreting then why are there so many different Protestant denominations all claiming to believe in the bible alone?



The fact is that Protestants don't really practice the bible alone. They have their own traditional interpretations of the bible passed onto them from their teachers. They put on their own glasses that filter things in the bible through the lens of their denomination. And, so when they say things like Catholics don't follow the bible it is not really true because what they are actually talking about is a difference of interpretation of the bible. To say that you don't follow the bible because you don't agree with my interpretation is a cop out from an actual discussion on scripture interpretation.



The Catholic Church does not claim to define the truth as you say. The only one who defines truth is God. As Jesus said 'I am the Truth'. If the CC declares something is true it is because it is true, not because the Church declared it to be. For example, on the issue of abortion it is declared to be a mortal sin and grounds for excommunication. This is because abortion actually is objectively evil, not because the Church declared it to be evil.



Peter Kreeft once said, the Catholic Church is just a mail carrier, delivering the Apostles mail. Every other church wants to edit his mail.



"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."

- 2 Th 2:15

Answer 2

"In the beginning was the Word"

No study is complete without Divine Revelation of the Word of God contained in the Sacred Scripture of the Old and New Testaments and passed down through Tradition with the Latin Vulgate and translated to the Douay-Rheims edition which is the most loyal to those traditions.

..Means to say. the deposit of faith of the Catholic Church is: the sacred scriptures, the holy traditions and the church magisterium itself.

Whether the scriptures are above the church is irrelevant: The Deposit of Faith of the Catholic Church consists of Holy Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium in conjunction with our holy Father the Pope. You can equate it to a three legged stool, with each leg having its own specific function. This three legged stool is also firmly implanted on the solid rock of the Catholic Church. See Matt 16:18, John 1:42, Eph 2:20, 1Pet 2:4-8 The three legged stool has strength, is sturdy, stable, steadfast and stalwart. That is all well and good. However, what happens when you cut off one leg? The stool becomes unstable and falls over.

Answer 3

The Holy Bible became placed mutually with seventy 3 books. Martin Luther bumped off the books he did not like and placed them into an appendix even as he broke from the Church. Later, the Lutherans stopped printing the books he bumped off altogether (maximum were from the former testomony and had to do with Purgatory, which Luther objected to). around the 1800's certain Protestant factions began replacing scripture and reading it otherwise than the widely used doctrines taught. even regardless of the reality that fundamentalists sects like the Baptists will quote from Augustine, they don't like numerous of his interpretations, and could not renowned that he became Catholic. similar with Thomas Aquinas. the real teachings of Christianity, that Christ is divine, and that God is eternal, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the daddy and the Son to assist mankind discover the reality, are known by making use of each and every of the mainstream church homes. those that do not renowned the Trinity are pretend. The Jehovah's Witnesses, SDA, and different pretend cult leaders replaced scripture. The Mormons at the prompt are not truly Christian as they save on with pretend teachings altogether. Christ warned that many would come to steer human beings off purpose. That has been shown real: Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Charles T. Russel, Ellen White, and L. Ron Hubbard, between others.

Answer 4

There are three sources of doctrine in the Catholic Church: Scripture, the teachings of the Magesterium (the scholars and theologians of the Church), and Sacred Tradition (those teachings which were passed down from the earliest days of the Church before the Bible was compiled.)



A valid doctrine must agree with all three sources and cannot contradict any of them. They serve as a checks-and-balances system to prevent error from creeping in.



"Sola Scriptura" has no such safeguards, and that's why Protestantism is in the shape that it is. When my interpretation of Scripture is just as valid as yours, my ego can get the better of me, and there's no reason why I can't break away and start my own church with "true" doctrines.



So no, Scripture is not subordinate to the teachings or Sacred Tradition of the Church. They all work together to keep the Church's teachings free from error. However, the *interpretation* of the Bible can't just be left up to one or two people to decide.



As 35,000+ Protestant denominations could tell you only too well.

Answer 5

No, of course not. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."



Where Protestants (c. 1600 AD - present) go wrong is in equating the New Testament scriptures (canonized about 400 AD) to the timeless and eternal Word of God, who is Christ himself. Like Jews and Muslims, Protestants create a religion of the book, in contradiction to the Catholic (c. 33 AD) religion of the Word.



Cheers,

Bruce

Answer 6

Oh wonderful. Another graduate of the Close Cover Before Striking School of Theology. Your 10-dollar certificate may impress the Methodists; stay with them to keep from looking stupid.



Jesus taught a small number of men, and then gave them Teaching Authority. The put some but not all of that teaching in writing in the New Testament. When the New Testament refers to scripture, it does not refer to itself.



Your best chance for happiness is to understand your limitations. You were meant for a career as a manual laborer or fry cook at McDonalds. If you want religious instruction, go to Mass.

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no No NO! You do NOT know your limitations. Your question makes it plain. Jesus, Peter, James, and John were Submissive! Your failure to submit to sound teaching is what will keep you from the truth. You spout off any silly crap that enters your mind, and you say the Holy Spirit sent it. Christ established the Church and gave it teaching authority. If you want to learn, learn from the Church instead of being one of those cultists.

Answer 7

You used 1 Tim 3:15 as an example as the Word of God.



You are aware, aren't you, that it is only the Word of God because the Catholic Church said so.



Save your sermons. I have smarter people than you for that.

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And Who Decided it was the Word from the moment it left his pen? Whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.



The Church Jesus founded - and from which you broke away - is the authority. It decided what got read and what didn't. The Church decided what to transcribe and what not to.



Take your fake religion and adios your butt down the road, you fraud.