Atheist and believer alike, how can God be God and yet make His presence known?

Tropos

2013-09-18 14:07:32 UTC

"If God is an "Unknowable Essence" is there any way for God to make His existence known?"

That begs the question of whether "god" IS an "unknowable essence." And how you would know that to begin with. How would you go about developing accuracy in that statement, other than just taking someone's word for it?

Claiming that something is unknowable a priori is a sign of a claim that is avoiding the fact that it is unsupported by any form of evidence. An individual having ulterior motives for holding a belief(like afterlife belief, ultimate justice system, overseer being, etc), but never finding any real supporting evidence, might like to call it "unknowable" simply because they have a lack of evidence but want to believe anyway.

"From a distance, a tree being blown by a wind appears to be moving on its own. While air cannot be seen by the naked eye, it can still be detected, can still very much make its presence known."

"Seeing" refers to the eye organ detecting photons. It's far from the only way we can know about something. If it's letting its be presence known in any way it can potentially be "knowable." So how do you justify your initial statement? Trying to have your cake(indicators for god's existence), and eat it too(no expectation of any indicator)?

2013-09-19 08:48:33 UTC

The most powerful force in the universe. Think about that , this entity is the most powerful force in the universe. For whatever reason, it is very important that we love this entity. Yet it chooses to only reveal itself to a few bronze age goat herders in the desert over two thousand years ago. Sounds like just one of the hundreds of other myths invented for our entertainment. I did read a little bit about this Baha'u'llah, how is he any different than L Ron Hubbard , Joseph Smith, and all the other charlatans that invented a religion ?

Robin W

2013-09-18 21:19:03 UTC

"Is it possible that in a similar way while God is not detectable to the naked eye that He still can make His presence both felt and known?"

I am still waiting for a god to show up.

" Consider the following Scripture..."

No. I don't believe in God, therefore I don't believe Baha'u'llah was a prophet.

2013-09-18 21:03:31 UTC

If an omnipotent benevolent god had created us, wouldn't we be born with the knowledge of its existence?

This does not affect free will, because:

1) Even people who are 100 percent sure of their religion (the vast majority of people who have ever lived) still commit sins

2) The deity could still give us free will anyway, otherwise it wouldn't be omnipotent

It would not use humans as prophets to get its message out, since clearly that channel of communication results in contradictory messages, and cannot be distinguished from messages that are not from the deity but only from the prophet (lies and insanity). The fact that there are many contradictory religions proves this.

From this reasoning, I conclude that either

a) we were not created by a deity at all, or

b) we were created by one that is not omnipotent, omniscient, and/or benevolent.

I believe a) is correct.

2013-09-20 13:43:09 UTC

By virtue of what he has created - time, space, matter and all life - we can know that God exists. Unless, of course, you assume that time, space, matter and all life got here by a random accident.

There is another way in which God makes himself known to us. His dealings with us have been recorded in the Bible. There is a written record of who this God is and how he came to earth in human form to dwell with us. Unlike Moses, Krishna, the Buddha, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah, all mortal men who lived and died, Jesus was God incarnate. Not just “a pure and sinless soul” in a body of flesh and blood, but God himself.

Jesus was the Word incarnate, God with us back then, and through him we can know our creator. The Word was there at creation, and "through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" (John 1:1-3). In other words, the pre-mortal Jesus was never made or created. And that's because he is part of the One Being of God. A lot of people fail to grasp that unique essence of Jesus. I do not believe that Moses, Krishna, the Buddha, Muhammad or Baha’u’llah can claim that through them everything that was made was made through them.

Anyway, I believe we can know God through Jesus: "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth... No-one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known" (John 1:14 and 18).

After Jesus ascended into heaven to return to his Father, he sent the Holy Spirit and I understand the Holy Spirit to be God with us now, just as Jesus was God with us back then.

ladyren

2013-09-18 23:37:46 UTC

No, gods are not "unknowable essences". They are real, doing real acts as noted in the Bible and The Koran. People who say they know god, tell us that god talks to them.... he talked to Dubya and told him to go to war. This isn't an "unknowable essence".

It's just that these characters are of bronze age goat herders, and there is no way to make one of them real. That is why people come up with evasive ideas.... to keep this god "alive", when in fact, he's only pretend.... just like tooth fairies are pretend.

Religions were invented to control the ignorant.... and the ignorant are still controlled. Ever see any devout Catholic in the corner of a cathedral praying with beads? That's control.

It isn't so much needed to day, but in ancient times, it was quite useful... as it was in the Middle Ages....when the RCC was soooo powerful, as to be able to assign one to be burned at the stake.

Aren't you glad you didn't live then?????

?

2013-09-18 21:02:30 UTC

If God is an unknowable essence, how come so many

people know exactly what he thinks, wants and does?

Last I knew billions of people know these things -

or claim to on a daily basis. Hell, even one of

our presidents knew God wanted us (the US) to

go to war.

Now, if all these people know God's ways and

desires, surely he can make himself known

to those of us who don't make these claims.

Or, we can do the same thing....

2013-09-18 20:59:26 UTC

Unknowable or unfathomable?

The Bible makes it pretty clear that he was among the Israelites, he slaughtered any of them that disobeyed him, made a pillar of fire, walked among adam and eve, parted the sea, spoke to people constantly apparently, raised the dead, I could go on.

But none of this seems to ever happen. Almost like its a legend, just like every other religion.

So Yahweh either doesn't exist, doesn't really love us, or is intentionally deceiving us.

Fitz

2013-09-18 21:00:41 UTC

If God is an "Unknowable Essence" -- Supposition. Everything following is invalid.

Maurog IV

2013-09-18 20:59:56 UTC

If God is an "Unknowable Essence", then what's the difference between it existing and not existing?

interested1208

2013-09-18 21:01:18 UTC

Felt and known in what way?

God is supposed to have no physical presence such as air does...

'Faith, belief and religious claims' mean nothing without a physical way of observing it...

Why do you guys continue to try and use air as a metaphor for your god?

IMHO

?

2013-09-18 21:01:05 UTC

I think that IF there is a god, he refuses to prove his existence, because there would be no faith, and without faith he is nothing.

So if there was proof of his existence, by his own argument, he wouldn't exist. QED.