Question:
Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs) on 2 Peter 1:1?
anonymous
2009-04-07 02:13:11 UTC
The Granville Sharp Rule states:

"When the copulative kai connects two nouns of the same case, [viz. nouns (either substantive or adjective, or participles) of personal description respecting office, dignity, affinity, or connection, and attributes, properties, or qualities, good or ill,] if the article ho, or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle: i.e. it denotes farther description of the first-named person" (http://www.pfrs.org/sharp.html).

2 Peter 1:1 meets the requirements of the rule:

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: (NKJV)

The nouns "God" and "Saviour" are both of personal description and are in the genitive case. They are both connected with the Greek copulative kai (English "and"). The Greek definite article precedes the first noun. The first-named person is "Jesus Christ." Therefore, the nouns "God" and "Saviour" refer to Jesus Christ.

Peter was one who was with Jesus. He of all people should have known if Jesus was truly God or not. It is interesting to me that Peter calls Jesus Christ "God and our Saviour."

The verse is clear, explicit, and unambiguous from the standpoint of the Greek grammar. How would Jehovah's Witnesses try to explain this verse from the grammatical aspect?
Ten answers:
Τιμοθέῳ
2009-04-07 06:54:19 UTC
If JWs want to apply their own Greek text rules to 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13, then they might as well apply the same rule to 1 Peter 1:3 where we have ὁ Θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ ... the God and Father ... as two persons rather than one? We can't have one set of Greek text rules for one person and another set of Greek text rules for another person just because the JWs have already placed a dogma on the two. Dogma does not translate anything, only the Greek language can be translated with only one rule, not two.

__________



"Tim F God & Father are two(2) different words(duh?). Do you call your dad God???? That's the POINT, they are different as is God & Saviour!!!"



To the one with the (duh?) language... God and Father is God and Saviour, right? Yet there are two verses showing God and Saviour with the name Jesus right after it. If God and Saviour means two persons, does this also mean Lord and Saviour are two persons as in 2 Peter 1:11; 2:20; 3:2; & 3:8? Why is God and Saviour dogmatically Two Persons and then Lord and Saviour is only One Person??? This is where dogma is misinterpreting and mistranslating with two different rules, where there should be only one rule, not two.



I can say "this person is a good man and father of his children" just the same way as God and Father is called in the Bible. Can I also say "this person is a good man and protector of his children" as Jesus is called God and Saviour or Lord and Saviour in the Bible? Why is it always the dogma reading the Greek and English words in the Bible, when you can say it without dogma in your ordinary everyday sentences???

__________________



Abernathy the Dull... You said...



"This "rule" became a rule just a couple of hundred years ago. However, the Koine Greek Bible writers wrote their books about 1700 years before this. They had no knowledge of this rule."



Are you saying your NWT follows no rules from certain individuals? What rule is John 8:58 "I was" (NWT) based on? Was it actually following the earliest found MSS available such as the Sahidic and Bohairic, or was it actually following the rules of modern day English grammar?
Abernathy the Dull
2009-04-08 15:52:56 UTC
The Granville Sharp Rule is a "rule" that the so-called "Church Fathers" knew nothing about. This is odd since Koine Greek was a living language at the time, whereas now it is not. This this "rule" were true, then the early Trinitarian apologists would have drawn people's attention to 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13 - yet they did not.



Exceptions to the rule HAVE been found, yet the formulators of the Granville Sharp Rule conviently explain those exceptions away. For example, the rule doesn't apply to names, or to plural titles. Also, since Jesus is not God, 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13 are exceptions to this rule.



This "rule" became a rule just a couple of hundred years ago. However, the Koine Greek Bible writers wrote their books about 1700 years before this. They had no knowledge of this rule.



Not all Greek scholars agree with this rule. Daniel Wallace, while defending this rule, says this about Sharp's Rule:

"Winstanley was Sharp’s most formidable adversary and, quite frankly, not all of his objections have been adequately answered even to this day."
fixerken
2009-04-07 03:01:15 UTC
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Lexicon / Concordance for 2 Peter 1:1





1:1 Συμεὼν Πέτρος δοῦλος καὶ ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῖς ἰσότιμον ἡμῖν λαχοῦσιν πίστιν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ



English (KJV) (Help) Strong's Root Form (Greek) Tense



Simon(g4826 Συμεών Symeōn) Peter,(g4074 Πέτρος Petros)

a servant(g1401 δοῦλος doulos) and(g2532 καί kai)

an apostle(g652 ἀπόστολος apostolos) of Jesus(g2424 Ἰησοῦς Iēsous) Christ,(g5547 Χριστός Christos)

to them that have obtained (g2975 λαγχάνω lagchanō)

like precious(g2472 ἰσότιμος isotimos)

faith(g4102 πίστις pistis) with us(g2254 ἡμῖν hēmin)

through(g1722 ἐν en) the righteousness(g1343 δικαιοσύνη dikaiosynē)



of God(g2316 θεός theos)



and(g2532 καί kai) our(g2257 ἡμῶν hēmōn)



Saviour(g4990 σωτήρ sōtēr)



Jesus(g2424 Ἰησοῦς Iēsous) Christ:(g5547 Χριστός Christos)



Notice the Greek word for God & the Greek word for Saviour ? What was you somking when you did your research?



Jehovah's Witnesses go with facts, NOT your "I think So's"!



Tim F God & Father are two(2) different words(duh?). Do you call your dad God???? That's the POINT, they are different as is God & Saviour!!!
?
2016-10-15 05:10:03 UTC
Hebrews 13:8 - it is not a assertion approximately him having no beginning up, it only mentions "the day in the past at present," meaning, and that i quote, "the day in the past at present." Micah 5:2 - The word is "time indefinite," Hebrew: ohlam. that would not recommend "perpetually," yet "a protracted time," or an "indefinite term." Jesus replaced into there while the universe replaced into formed, which replaced into billions of years in the past. Hebrews 7:3 - This verse is relating Melchizedek. So he would desire to affix the Godhead too, in accordance on your good judgment. Hebrews 2:5 and Hebrews a million:6 - each and every of the angels different than Jesus. a elementary way of speaking in Greek. only like in John 7:40 six, the place it says “never has a guy spoken like this.” No guy, different than of path the guy Jesus, had spoken like that.
karen n
2009-04-07 02:25:41 UTC
What you said is not always so. Better go back and do some more research. Be sure to take your time in order to understand it more accurately. Throughput the whole Bible, Gos is referred to as the Father, Jesus is His son, and the Holy Spirit is Gods active force, Also cgeck out the history of the trinity-it is a pagan teaching that comes from Greek mythology. Aside from that-who did Jesus pray to? himself? did Jesus resurrect himself to himself and sit at his own right hand? I certainly do not need anything but the Bible and common sense to understand this one!
anonymous
2009-04-07 02:45:00 UTC
τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ



τοῦ θεοῦ - THE god



καὶ - and



Χριστοῦ - christ



god has a definate article, personalising it as being the one and only.



Χριστός,n {}

1) Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God 2) anointed



i see no relevance of 'god' whatsoever in that word
Sas
2009-04-07 02:32:59 UTC
I agree with Karen.

Though I'm curious as to why you directed this at Jehovah's?

The Trinity myth is just that, a myth. Not only Jehovah's say that, the Catholic Church has been quoted many times as saying that it has no Biblical grounds.
grandpa
2009-04-10 23:25:47 UTC
lots of verbosity, but read vs two. remember, the scriptures must have internal harmony. quoted below:



modern english: NWT --

1 Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith, held in equal privilege with ours, by the righteousness of our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ:

2 May undeserved kindness and peace be increased to YOU by an accurate knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord



weymouth:



1- Simon Peter, a bondservant and Apostle of Jesus Christ: To those to whom there has been allotted the same precious faith as that which is ours through the righteousness of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ.



2- May more and more grace and peace be granted to you in a full knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,





Lutherbibel [ 2nd best in germany 1545 xltn]

1- Simon Petrus, ein Knecht und Apostel Jesu Christi: Denen, die mit uns eben denselbigen teuren Glauben überkommen haben in der Gerechtigkeit, die unser Gott gibt und der Heiland Jesus Christus



2- Gott gebe euch viel Gnade und Frieden durch die Erkenntnis Gottes und Jesu Christi, unsers HERRN!





westcott & hort [1881 ed]



{VAR1: σιμων } {VAR2: συμεων } πετρος δουλος και αποστολος ιησου χριστου τοις ισοτιμον ημιν λαχουσιν πιστιν εν δικαιοσυνη του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου



χαρις υμιν και ειρηνη πληθυνθειη εν επιγνωσει του θεου και ιησου του κυριου ημων





so, you lost that.



then, we take you to hebrews 1 2 & 3. read ALL of it.

jesus is:



apostle



mediator



high priest



son



inheritant



sitting at GOD'S right hand



chief agent.



all of those show subservient position relative to Jehovah.



you lose that one, too.



citing a few verses OUT OF CONTEXT is not befitting one who is claiming 'knowledge' above and beyond that of the christian teachings as outlined in the bible.



you need to read your citations IN CONTEXT. that will help you see your erroneous ways.



mind you, we understand your reluctance to admit error. however, i had to admit trinity was wrong and a demonic teaching. so did most of Jehovahs witnesses who came from the weak church-style religion.



you must 'man up' to Jehovah. pray to HIM. pray in JESUS name, as the mediator between god & man, not between him self and himself.



that idea is why muslims and other religions are eating your trinitarian lunch. they show how ungodly such a teaching is. poof. the vast majority of 'churches' are wiped out.



go to your local kingdom hall. you can find it on yahoo [ gotta give them a plug]



go into the maps, yellow pages, and type the name JEHOVAH, and except in detroit, you will find Jehovah's witnesses.

in detroit, you will find Jehovah baptist church.

been there since about 1970 or so; probably earlier. that's when i first found it, tho.



gramps
anonymous
2009-04-13 14:03:05 UTC
Greetings,



First the questioner has committed the Logical Fallacy of a Strawman argument. And then he is requiring an ignorance of his hearers.



He claims that JWs deny that Jesus is called God and so their doctrine is affected if Jesus is called God here. This is completely untrue. Anyone who claims that Witnesses have a problem with Jesus being called God is just being deceptive and must know nothing about our belief. Witnesses have no problem with Jesus being described as God since we know Jesus is called "God" several times in the Bible just as angels, the Devil and men are called God: Ex.7:1, Ps.8:5; 82:1,6, Jn.10:34.



So Witnesses have no problem with Jesus being called "God" here, because it does not contradict our belief at all.





What we do have a problem with is if someone claims that "because Jesus is called God, therefore he must be Almighty God." This is obviously a faulty interpretation because it would also mean that Satan, Moses, the whole nation of Israel and angels were also Almighty God. THEOS is not a unique title for the "Most High," so obviously, the very foundation of this logic is proven false. Interpreting this Scripture as meaning Jesus is equal to Almighty God also demands an ignorance of the way the term "God" was used in Bible times and it would contradict the immediate context of 2Peter as well as every explicit scripture which shows that Jesus was less than Almighty God at every point of his existence (Jn. 14:28; 20:17; Mk.13:32; 1Cor.15:27,28; Rev.3:2,12).



Jws have a problem with faulty interpretation, not with Jesus being called ‘God’. So the questioner first misrepresents Witnesses belief.





Second, the questioner implies that translations or interpretations that separate Jesus and God here have gone against an established rule of Greek grammar. But in doing this he demands an ignorance of his hearers because he does not inform readers that many translators and scholars disagree about whether the "rule" applies to 2Pet.1:1 here or even its validity as a rule.



"The identity of reference of two substantives when under the vinculum of a common article"—is too slender to bear much weight especially when we take into consideration not only the general neglect of the article in these epistles but [also] the omission of it before [savior] in 1 Tim. 1:1, 4, 10.—The Expositor's Greek Testament, Vol. IV, p. 195.



"[In 2Peter 1:1, Savior Jesus Christ] may be taken by itself and separated from the preceding." —F. Blass and A. Debrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, trans. R. W. Funk, page 145



"The arguments and authorities in favour of the two renderings are very evenly divided...The fact that theos is never directly connected with Jesus Christ as an attribute, and the frequency with which God and Christ are presented as distinct from each other, as having a common relation to men in the economy of grace, makes it probable that the same kind of union is intended here, and not a presentation of Christ as God."—Vincent's; Tit.2:13



“Undoubtedly, as in Titus II. 13, in strict grammatical propriety, both theou and soteros would be predicated of Iesou Christou. But here as there, [Tit 2:13] considerations interpose, WHICH SEEM TO REMOVE THE STRICT GRAMMATICAL RENDERING OUT OF THE RANGE OF PROBABLE MEANING...Here, there is the additional consideration in favour of this view, that the Two are distinguished most plainly in the next verse:—Henry Alford, The Greek Testament, Vol. 4 (IV), p. 390.



“…It is plain then that the usage of the words ‘God our Saviour' does not make it probable that the whole expression here is to be applied to the Lord Jesus Christ.—Henry Alford, The Greek Testament, Vol. III, pp. 419.





One of the reasons grammarians are divided on whether Sharp’s rule applies here is because Sharp excluded proper names from his rule. The reason that an article does not appear in Greek before ‘our Saviour’ is because of the occurrence of the proper name “Jesus Christ” not because the writer wanted to equate Jesus with the preceding God. So many scholars conclude that 2Pet.1:1 and Tit.2:13 are not governed by Sharp’s rule.



The questioner keeps his hearers ignorant of these facts.



Further, while the questioner attempts to limit the interpretation of this verse to only “the grammatical aspect,” we can see that when it comes down to it grammar and syntax is not decisive here and cannot be the absolute basis for interpretation or translation.



"We must as grammarians leave the matter open."—Moulton's, Winer-Moulton, Tit.2:13; pg. 162, 156n



The context, theology and his habitual use of language of the writer must be relied upon and in ambiguous passages is even more important than grammar. Those who insist that Jesus is identified as God here will not admit this because neither the context nor the Bible supports such an interpretation.



Even more evidence is found in Peter’s word usage. In 1 and 2Peter Christ is referred to as "kyrios" 12 times but not *once* as "theos" (excluding 2Pet1:1) However, Peter refers to the Father as "theos" 45 times. So Peter and his readers very definitely knew who God was, and it was the Father. So in 2 Peter 1:1 his readers would have known he was referring to the Father only, especially since the name Jesus Christ occurred after Savior grammatically separating God from Jesus Christ.



This interpretation is proved correct by the very next verse (2:2) where God and Jesus are undeniably distinguished as two separate subjects.



Further evidence is found in the standard practice of the epistles to open with a reference to both God the Father and Jesus Christ. In fact, Peter in the opening statement of his first letter explicitly states that Jesus has a God over him (1Pt.1:3) as do many of the other epistles. (Cf. Rom.15:6; 1Cor.11:3; 15:24-28; 2Cor.1:3; Eph.1:17; Tit.1:4; Heb.1:9; 1Pt.1:3; Jn.20:17; Rev.1:6; 3:2,12).





So in conclusion, while Witnesses do not have a problem with Jesus being called God, anyone who insists that Jesus be equal or the same as God Almighty has a serious problem with Jesus being called God while at the same time being presented as less than and separate from another God.



Therefore, Witnesses and many other translations are justified if they choose to view 2Pet.1:1 as not calling Jesus God.



Anyone who tries to assert that 2Pet.1:1 is “clear, explicit, and unambiguous from the standpoint of the Greek grammar” is simply trying to fool his audience.



Yours,



Ron Rhoades
anonymous
2009-04-07 02:20:55 UTC
Jehovah's should just give up


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