Do you agree with Biblical Scholar who states that the Biblical literature was created about 200 BC.?

Question

Dr. Niels Peter Lemche of the University of Copenhagen claims the Biblical material was composed by Jewish Rabbinical authors based on material no earlier than at the most 600 BC.

For those of you who disagree with this position what makes you think that your scholastic knowledge qualifies you to disagree with his findings?

Since this knowledge make Judaism, Christianity and Islam about as valid as the Valhalla of the Vikings how can you demand anyone follow your beliefs?

What if I may ask makes you able to demand any laws at all be based on your "faith".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Peter_Lemche

Answer 1

As you can plainly see by the answers you are getting, many people discount anything you have to say the moment you mention Wikipedia. Never mind the fact that many Wikipedia articles state multiple sources for their material and are as reliable as other encyclopedic sources like Britannica. All someone has to do to verify the article is to check out the sources quoted.

Most believers do not want to do this as they might run across something which contradicts their world view.

The fact remains that the Old Testament, as we know it today, was cobbled together from disparate texts written by many different people over several centuries. None of the authors are known (those who believe Moses is responsible for the Pentateuch, aka the Torah, are in error). The same is true of the New Testament. None of the gospels were authored by those whose names appear on them. None of it is an eyewitness account since it was all written long after the supposed events took place.

Answer 2

Many scholars agree that the Old Testament reached the form that we know today around 500 BC under the leadership of a scholar/scribe named Ezra. I am not aware of a single credible scholar who claims that the material was "composed" at that time. What he did is a "redactoring" of earlier material. That means he when through and clean it up and organized it from earlier sources.



For example if you look through the books of 1&2 Samuel/1&2Kings and the matching books of 1&2 Chronicles, you will find that they include court records for a 500 year period. No one person could have "composed" those records. However Ezra "edited" the ones knows as 1&2 Chronicles into a single book. If these books were "composed" - by which you are implying they were made up at that time - why would the 'composer" had varied so much in his telling of events in Chronicles and the same events in either Samuel or Kings? That would make no sense for a work of fiction. However it is very common in true historical accounts for information or details included to vary between witnesses.



Scholars have been able to trace several earlier sources, such as the J, E, and P sources of the Torah. These show that the material is much older that 600 BC. There is also evidence, for example in the Psalms where many of them are designed to begin each verse with a different letter of the Hebrew alphabet. Yet the alphabet used in many of the earlier ones (Psalms is actually five books combined together at a later date) is NOT the alphabet in use after 550 BC. So the orginin of those Psalms has to be early than that.



There are also references to the Mosaic Laws in other literature, inscriptions, etc that predate 600 BC. Kind of hard to quote those books before they were composed, isn't it?



As for the books being created "around 200BC", there are manuscript in the Dead Sea Scrolls that predate that time. Some of them have been dated as far back 450 BC, and are written in an alphabet that dropped out of usage during the Babylonian Captivity, prior to 550 BC.



There is historical evidence, manuscripts, and textural reasons to believe that the text of the Old Testament is older than 200 BC and even 600 BC. It was not "composed" during that time period.

Answer 3

No, Ptolemy had the Torah translated into Greek (Septuagint) in the 3rd century BCE. This means that not only did the Torah exist before 200 CE but Ptolemy was already aware of its existence and had made arrangements to have it translated. Granted this does not prove that the Torah is some 3500 years old as the bible appears to indicate but it does prove that your "bible scholar" does not know which end is up or you have seriously misread something he said.



"Since this knowledge make Judaism, Christianity and Islam about as valid as the Valhalla of the Vikings how can you demand anyone follow your beliefs?" Judaism does not demand that anyone follow its beliefs. Judaism claims that the Torah only applies to Jews and gentiles are not required to follow its teachings.



"Bible scholars" are about a dime a dozen, I have crossed paths with several over the years that have made absurd claims that didn't hold up. I could also name a "Dr." at a certain university who wrote a book about his theory of the beginnings of Christianity. It later turned out that some of the arcaeological "evidence" that he presented to support his theory was fake.

Answer 4

There's a pretty thorough and devastating reply to Lemche in Kenneth Kitchen's monumental book 'On the Reliability of the Old Testament'. The problems with Lemche's dating include: the style of Hebrew not matching the time periods Lemche proposes, but matching earlier times; the structures of the text not matching structures of texts in the time periods Lemche proposes, but matching earlier times; the content of the text does not fit with the knowledge of the time Lemche proposes, but with earlier times.



Someone writing e.g. in the second century BCE would not use a literary structure matching the 13th century BCE that he would be unfamiliar with, that we only know about from contemporary archaeology; would not know the price of slaves from the 13th century or earlier, would not know details of Egyptian and Canaanite culture, geography or names from the 13th century or earlier and that only contemporary archaeology informs us about, etc, etc. For the many details, see Kitchen's book.

Answer 5

Evidence suggests that the book of Job is much older than that.



a. The patriarchal family-clan organization reflects the time of Abraham rather than after the Exodus



b. The offering of sacrifice by the head of the family rather than a priest reflects a time before the Exodus



c. The mention of a qesitah as a type of money (Job 42:11) suggests a date which is at least during the time of Joshua (cf. Jos. 24:32), if not during the patriarchal period (cf. Gen 33:19)5

Answer 6

His dating only applies to the Old Testament, it is made quit clear. All biblical scholars agree with that. What you forget to comprehend is the statement "current state." Most if not all of the books were written well before 400-1000 B.C. The article in question implies the Old Testament in it's current state was complied around 200 B.C.

Answer 7

For a reason, (inexplicable to the opinionated Atheist), the Biblical writings, continue to garner more interest than any other compilation of writings, anywhere in the World, for the past 2000 years. The Bible continues to be the Worlds best selling Book, year after year. Explain that? I can. The more claims that are made about The Bible, by scholars and non scholars alike, the more interested people become. Thats another Law of God. Who Makes the Knowledge of God fill The Earth..

Answer 8

No, I don't agree. Artifacts have been found from 600 BCE with the priestly blessing (benediction).



Oops. I didn't read your whole rant! Judaism certainly does NOT demand that anyone, much less everyone, believe what's written in our Hebrew Bible. It's the Christian bible (NT) that creates places of eternal bliss for "believers" vs. eternal torment for "non-believers!"









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Answer 9

if you read the jewish history, you will find out that the bible was damaged and REWRITTEN more than 7 years, the last time was around 600 years after Moses death.



The nowadays bible is not the true bible that Moses and Jesus received from God, this is proved by chrestian scholars and science scholars as it contains numerous contradictions to modern science.



If you want the truth..try reading the Quraan, Quraan NEVER contradicted modern science, on the contrary, modern science proved many things in the Quraan...google " science in the Quraan "..

Tip..get your info from an Islamic source..there are so many people who give wrong info about Quran and Islam.

Answer 10

Moses wrote Genesis about 1440 or 1400 BC

The bible is encoded all through . with messages from God by 40 different authors.in that the writings of each author continues the same message encoded throughout of God to us.



The New testament is in the old testament concealed.

The Old testament is in the New Testament revealed.



Example of the integrity of the design before the foundations of the earth.

Hebrew Translation

geneology Genesis 5

Adam......................means .... Man ( is )Seth..means......Appointed.

Enosh......means.....Mortal .Kenan....means......Sorrow ( but).

Mahalalel......means.... The Blessed God. Jared....means.....Shall come down. Enoch....means...Teaching. Methuselah.....means..His death shall bring. Lamech...means..The despairing. Noah...means...Comfort and peace.





Put the meanings together you have this message from God.



Man is appointed mortal sorrow, but The Blessed God shall come down teaching, His death shall bring the despairing comfort and peace.

This is but a small example of God's fingerprint on scripture ( Bible )

Answer 11

That you would take what you read on Wikipedia as factual, not THAT'S scarey!



What make Dr. Lemche any "better" than the "scholars" that claim it is much older than that?



Since this "knowledge" was found on wikipedia (and is NOT credible), how do you expect anyone to put stock in YOUR assertions?



This was a stupid question...

Answer 12

Nope. Beware of Bible scholars.

Answer 13

No. This is just another of Satan moves to distort the truth from unwitting and unknowing individuals who will easily believe anything he distorts as true.

Answer 14

Another my carnal knowledge is better than urs. 1rst mistake is putting trust in another human (especially 1 who thinks he's properly paper trained b/c he's got his certificate from a human approved source) is akin 2 a blind man leading a blind man as both fall in2 a pit (each assumed the other could see). W/o Jesus u'll never reach even the level of seeing men as trees walking. Only Jesus can cure spiritual blindness. U might b able 2 fool urself & possibly others but no1 can fool the Holy 1 of Israel.



The Bible severely warns us not 2 trust humans, not even ourselves, clergy/churches/scholars/scientists/TV (Jer 10:2-5,23; Is 2:22; Job 12:11; Prov 14:12; Acts 17:11) so carefully think over what I say. Dont just believe/dismiss what I write. It might save u from making the mistake many made, getting caught up in religious beliefs having nothing 2 do with knowing God (poisoned tree/its fruit) - includes man-made books/commentaries about the Bible.



Neither a label/title/name, its history, # of members, amount of time it existed or claims made about them means anything (u can call anything anything). Whats practiced makes them either the whole truth or a lie. A dictionary def. doesnt necessarily encompass God's full definition/usage of a word (or His exceptions thereof). I.e. Jesus/Biblical prophets were never muslims as Islam claims & the Cc's claim of veneration of saints/Mary is a form of idolatry no matter what they claim (calling a dog god [or pope] doesnt make it God).



The crux of the problem is many (having limited knowledge) try 2 know what God did by imposing human limitations 4 understanding things 2 God's abilities. Many confuse telling the truth (offends many) with hate. 40+ yrs Iv studied the whole Bible, some parts many times - 1 day I realized theres a truth that stands 4ever unchanged (which God doesnt compromise). Only 1 God can occupy infinity & that God is the God of Israel (no other legit gods exist). Infinity is the only place u can rightly claim u dont need a cause 4 ur existence & declare the end from the beginning {so all Bible Books of the standard Bible r correctly included} - only fully provable b/c Jesus is 1 & only true Son of God & He wasnt speaking out of 2 let alone 1000s of the sides of His mouth [EMPHASIS ADDED]. Since theres only 1 God/1 Jesus/1 Holy Spirit (& they all agree in Spirit & truth) then only 1 legitimate Biblical interpretation is possible (God isnt the author of confusion & Jesus speaks 2 God's fixed order of all things Biblical).



Many dont know that God is well aware many would [un]intentionally twist/pervert His Word so He invented a system in the Bible that will never change (Just like God & Jesus - more visible in word 4 word [with right usage of the literal method] versions of the Bible - Prov 30:4-6). Guaranteed most OT Books were written much earlier than 200 BC & Job may b the oldest (& I hv a books on the Dead Sea scrolls (1 major Book Isaiah is still very accurate in modern translations & gives us solid evidence embedded in God's system/mindset that stands on God's foundation that 4ever binds the entire Bible [both OT/NT] 2getter in the truth that never changes (any attempt 2 change the Bible is there4 minor @ most if u know what 2 look 4).



Jesus couldnt have done nor said what He did unless He fully knew the entire OT (NT didnt exist @ the time of Jesus) - only possible if God sent Him. The Apostles couldnt write the NT unless Jesus allowed them 2 know/remember His purpose (Lk 24:25-27,45). Only God could cause it.



Everything in the NT comes from, agrees with, adheres 2 the full purpose that God set forth in the OT & builds upon that. So all claims of the truth from God must fully comply with the truth of both the OT/NT or its not from God/Jesus. No claim can vary even 1 degree from whats written in the Bible. In the OT God states that He never changes (Mal 3:6). In the NT it states that Jesus never changes (Heb 13:8). Since Jesus did exactly what God wanted Him 2 do (Jn 8:28; 5:30, 14:6,9) then He didnt change the truth that God revealed from the very beginning (1 reason why the word is sharper than any 2 edged sword).



The reason the 66 legit Bible Books r included (40+ writers - akin 2 the Manhattan A-bomb project format) is b/c they all stand on the same purpose in the same mindset on the same foundation/structure & deliver the same message (Apocrypha/"lost" books, etc. dont adhere 2 this framework/contradict the real Bible books so they dont belong in the Bible - just b/c the Bible mentions other writings doesnt make those books Biblical/valid). The only thing changed thru Jesus is the way 1 achieves abiding by whats in the OT (that which is necessary). That is 1 must go thru Jesus who is perfect & fulfilled the OT Law (purpose 4 Jesus' mission on earth so He could b the perfect sacrifice 4 our sins).



Any claim of another testament or different teaching (& so-called 'oral' tradition) is = 2 a false gospel, not Jesus' 1 true genuine Gospel. Any1 accepting another gospel/testament/book or teaching cant b a true Christian b/c its not from God (FLDS, LDS, Oc, RCc, Cc, JWs, Islam/others dont understand this).



Sadly many dont actually take seriously whats stated in the Bible (any revelation/vision must exactly match/reflect the truth that never changes in both the OT/NT or its not from God). Many think they r smarter than God but God outsmarted man - the Bible is the only 1 that cant b properly understood w/o going thru Jesus & having true faith in Him (Jn 14:6; 5:39; II Cor 3:14; Is 29:11-12 - If Jewish ppl cant pierce the veil over the OT w/o Jesus (by His instructions) 4 sure all gentiles cant) - why theres many interpretations/many thinking its a fairytale/delusion (Jesus came bearing the sword of division).



Its why theres many religions, built on what man wants God 2 b like (many fatal mistakes). I realized they cant all b right (Theres 1 Bible - why so many interpretations? - II Pet 1:**19-21). Religion wont teach u much about God (they cant teach what they don't know). But it doesnt mean God doesnt know what He's doing. Who knows more about a house, the Builder or those moving in later?



Many missed this: Jesus is the only 1 in history who said no1 can find our real God except thru Him (Jn 14:6; 3:3,5; 5:39; 10:1,7; Acts 4:12). This means the truth was complete/finished thru what Jesus taught/did (NT reinforces the OT) so any so-called new/other teachings r invalid & cant lead u 2 God. The truth is either the whole truth (absence of any lie) or its a lie. Either Jesus told the only whole truth or He's just a false prophet among many, whom should b disregarded - would also mean God must not exist either (He either knows what He's doing or He cant b God).



A church thats very serious about finding the Biblical truth, understands what being Born Anew is about, might b able 2 help u but no1 can save u except Jesus (Jn 3:1-14 - note: Nicodemus was very religious but Jesus flat out told him he had missed the 1rst most important step, that he must b Born Anew or no matter how religious/good he thought he is he couldn't go 2 Heaven (Jn 3:3,5; Jn 14:6; Acts 4:12). **NO-1 can live W/O BREAKING God's eternal LAW = sin - separates us from God (why we need 2 b rightly Born Anew in Jesus - no1 is good but God).



voyc4rmwldrns

Answer 15

they found one that is approximately 700 bc

Answer 16

and all this comes from wiki? you atheists get thinker by the day.