Fellow Mormons, a question about the apostasy?

Question

I was reading about it on a website that tackles some tough questions, and they mentioned that there has never been a time when a priesthood holder was not present on the Earth. However, they maintained that a universal apostasy could still occur, because those priesthood holders (specifically mentioned were John the Beloved and the 3 Nephites) were not authorized to exercise their priesthood authority. http://en.fairmormon.org/Apostasy/Priesthood_on_earth_during_the_apostasy

However, in the Book of Mormon, the 3 Nephites were specifically authorized to exercise their priesthood authority in bringing souls unto Christ, including missionary work and baptizing. (See 3 Ne 28)

So how did the apostasy occur, if the priesthood authority and ordained leadership of Christ's church never left the earth? Was a restoration needed? Why weren't the Three Nephites or John the Beloved involved in the restoration?

Lots of questions! Thanks in advance for your patience. :-)

Answer 1

The great apostasy was not a complete abandonement of the earth and humanity by God. I think it (apostasy) means that no organized Church on the earth had the FULL authority/doctrine.



The Nephites and John were not exercising their priesthood authority for others in a church setting. They either did not have the authority or had simply been told (without us having record of it that I know of --- goody! something new to research!) not to administer the saving ordinances of the gospel to the world. And they were translated - meaning that there was no mortal priesthood authority, and no Church authorized to act in God's name.



add: here we go. I was thinking I had just read an interesting quote on this subject.....

http://en.fairmormon.org/Apostasy/Priesthood_on_earth_during_the_apostasy



add: ok - just a thought on this, but because of 3 Nephi 28:10

And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one;

I'm thinking that they would have had the authority, doctrine, power - but other scripture references indicate that John at least was told he could prophecy until Christ came again (D&C 7:3 (1-8)) and 3 Nephi 28:15-16 seems to indicate that there were restrictions put upon the 3 as well.

just mho....



edit: I'm not following you at all beta - I think the verses you give support precisely that - especially verse 16 (brackets for emphasis are mine)

"But it came to pass that they did again minister upon the face of the earth; [[nevertheless they did not minister of the things which they had heard and seen, because of the commandment which was given them in heaven]]. "

And it coincides with what Presidents Clark and Smith were talking about in the link I provided. Plus it makes sense.



edit: Ok. as a point of clarification - I am not interpreting anything. I am only providing you with information available from scripture and Pres. of the Church. I don't do interpretation - that's how this whole thing got messed up in the first place. You, of course, are certainly welcome to make your own interpretations or assumptions about things - and I would never try to change that. I will always, however, be up for a discussion. ;)

As I indicated, this is not a subject I have yet researched, and as such, I have not talked with God about it yet either. When I have formed some sort of understanding, I may. Until then, for me, it is all only speculation.

I can certainly see your point. But, as I said - I don't think God has ever, since the creation, left us completely on our own and to the whims of Satan. I think He has always had the gospel here on the earth. The point I think is that it would have been very limited in practice.

Good question. Thanks.

Answer 2

Holding the priesthood and holding the keys are different things.



There are only one set of keys on the earth. Peter, James, and John had the keys and the only story of a transfer of the keys conveniently took place on the site of Peter's martyrdom (which seems silly to transfer power to the group killing him).



Your question supposes that in the America's there also was a continuation of apostles - but we don't read about that happening. We do see that Mormon was asked by the prophet to be the next prophet when he was young and would wait a while for that - clearly there were no apostles at that time. Moroni likewise was called as a prophet yet at no time was an apostle.



Apostolic succession didn't happen in the America's because once Christ was gone from their midst they lacked keys to ordain new apostles.



So the 3 nephites are 3 men who were apostles; but just because I'm an elder doesn't mean that I can call other elders - you and I know it doesn't work that way.



Keys are needed for a continuation and transfer of authority. Today some keys are delegated and some are retained. For example a stake president is allowed to set missionaries apart not by virtue of his own calling but because the apostles delegate that responsibility to stake presidents. However the only one allowed to give calls are apostles because they have never delegated it out (so calls are literally by prophecy).



So although you may hold the priesthood to be able to bless the sacrament when you're on vacation; you cannot exercise your keys unless instructed by the bishop of the ward in which you currently are in.



On my mission I was a branch president without receiving keys or being ordained. I've done various assignments by request by those with authority while the last time I had priesthood keys I was 15 and president of a teachers quorum. You can direct something without keys if you have been delegated to do so; you just can't pass it on to others.







John did indeed play a part in the restoration as he returned with Peter and James to restore the priesthood. The question is asked why he didn't do so on his own, he lacked the keys for that without the other 2.







EDIT: RKD brings up a fascinating point about the 12 in the Americas not being called apostles.



http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/2



Read the distinction between the 2 groups, apostles are only mentioned in the 3rd person while disciples are present.

Answer 3

Noah was given the same command. He held the higher priesthood to bring souls to Christ. When the people ripened in wickedness the time for repentance had passed. Accountability was enacted.



Perhaps the same principal is found in the story of Lot and with the Savior's teaching to the early apostles about the dusting of feet as a symbol of full rejection. (Mark 6:11)



I guess you could also consider the story of Enoch who was tranlated with his entire city. They too had the higher priesthood, but their responsibility obviously changed from missionary work to something else.



As for John, and the 3 Nephites..... they still brought souls to Christ. I believe that God will judge mankind according to the light and knowledge they have and according to their true desires. Those that lived during the great apostosy are not forgotten and lost forever. I know of no other religion that makes the claim to help those souls in their path of salvation through the atonement.



Perhaps the 3 nephites or John the Beloved were involved in the restoration. There are references to many others who participated in the events. The restoration didnt' end with Joseph Smith. He began the restoration. The restoration will continue until the fullness presented at the 2nd coming. Who knows...maybe the angels mentioned in the book of revelation is in reference to these ancient prophets.



Edit:

I forgot to add one last verse from Moroni.



Morm. 8: 10 (10-12).

10 And there are none that do know the true God save it be the disciples of Jesus, who did tarry in the land until the wickedness of the people was so great that the Lord would not suffer them to remain with the people; and whether they be upon the face of the land no man knoweth.

11 But behold, my father and I have seen them, and they have ministered unto us.

12 And whoso receiveth this record, and shall not condemn it because of the imperfections which are in it, the same shall know of greater things than these. Behold, I am Moroni; and were it possible, I would make all things known unto you.



I think that verse gives us a good indication of what happened.

Answer 4

I have been monitoring this question for the past few hours, and I must say, I am most intrigued with Phrog's answer. Everything I can find seems to support this idea. And she nailed it with 3 Nephi 28:16 because it says right there that while they were allowed to minister, they did not minister of all things because of a commandment given them in heaven. It makes good, logical sense.



I think she's got it right - that the priesthood may have been present,but that those holding it, were no longer mortal, and that they had been instructed what actions they could endorse.

Answer 5

The apostasy also involved the removal of the priesthood KEYS from the earth.



Neither the 3 Nephites, nor any of the 12 disciples in the Americas were apostles. Notice that the Book of Mormon never refers to the 12 disciples in the Americas as apostles. In other words, none of the 12 disciples in the Americas would have been able to give they keys of the restoration to Joseph Smith.



John the Beloved, however, was an apostle and was involved in the restoration.

Answer 6

I was about to write down something pretty similar to phrog's answer, then I actually read what she said.



So I'll save both of us the time, so we can go surf the web elsewhere....



Have a great day!

Answer 7

Frog's answer makes sense. The authority never left - it just wasn't used global.





edit - oops. phrog's answer

geez phrog - what's that about?