Question:
A challenge for the Christians who fancy themselves as intellectual, educated & understanding of morality?
Euthyphroozelah
2008-12-17 17:13:39 UTC
What makes you Christians think that Christian morality is a better or a genuine morality???

When we think of Morality, we think of a code of conduct or a set or rules/norms that guide us in accordance with what is the right/good. Of course we do not want to have a morality that is based on arbitrary desires of individuals or groups or societies or nations. Morality as a concept is objective, categorical, universal and ultimately grounded in it's own inherent prescriptive force.

However, there is a prevalence of the view that Monotheistic codes of morality, such as those of the Christian faith satisfy such a requirement... I am not here to argue that there are other moral codes that do so, but rather I am here to question the notion that Christian morality (as an example of monotheistic morality or God based morality) does not have the status that those who subscribe to the faith think it has... Indeed it seems that Christian morality is no more than just sandcastles in the air.

A. If we identify morality with God’s command we have to face the possibility that God might have commanded us to torture the innocent. If this is correct then torturing is acceptable because God says so!

B. But genuine morality is not that arbitrary is it? if God has a "reason" for not torturing people then it is that "reason" that counts as the genuine morality.

C. But if this is so then morality is not based on God’s command but on the independent fact that torture is wrong based on that "reason".

So you people have a dilemma to resolve. Gods command is either arbitrary or based on a fact which provides a "reason" for the command. In which case either morality is arbitrary or there is an independent basis for morality??

You might also want to ask yourselves these questions:

1. Is something morally good because god desires it to be?
2. Or does god desire it because it is morally good?

1. Do you praise God because he is moral???
2. Or is God moral because you praise him???

1. We generally accept that torture is wrong but... Is it just because God says so (and you have faith in him)???
2. Or... Is it because God understands what morality is about (and you have faith in his ability to understand the reasons for morality)???

(Conceptual Chess continues... check!)
26 answers:
Buddy R
2008-12-17 17:19:56 UTC
If there is no God there is no right or wrong so it is not wrong to rape babies. One atheist told me yesterday it is not wrong to rape babies, that some people just think it is wrong. Athiests are quite perverted it seems.
Traveler
2008-12-18 01:32:18 UTC
Morality is not defining absolute right from wrong as you suggest. From your argument there is a genuine morality, although you don't give any answers to where this genuine morals come from, that is universal and absolute. That is the wrong premises of the morality. Morality is not about so and so is wrong and so an so is right. The sense of having the ultimate right, like knowing a line is crooked, is intrinsically embedded in our sublime consciousness.



We share some sort of standards which the old philosophers called it the "Law of Nature." The morality is not the immovable standards. It is the determinant that makes a decision to suppress certain rights over greater right, or less.



When faced with 2 right things to do, such as justice and mercy, we suppress one virtue to carry out what we judge to be right. The decisions may differ from one person to another but the ideal that there is a standard cannot me expressed other than that it is numinous.



The spectrum of human instincts are laid out in front of you like a key board on the piano. Not one note is more evil or wrong than the others. They are simply played less. There are not wrong notes but poor playing. the one who dictates how you play the note can be from God or yourself. God is absolute and you are not. So, where does the apex of the morality lie? You or God?
Trey J
2008-12-18 03:46:34 UTC
A. this question borders on the premissive will of GOD.. God permits some things we can naturally think of or percieve as toruture to come to pass, however there is a spiritual reason and God controls these things... key words in your post are "possibilty and might" which has implications of hypotheticals so with that said you intial statment contains doubts that can be percieved as imaginative.Therefore the logic is not sound!!!

B. contradicts A... are you then confused. either God Tortures or Not make up ur mind and quit playing with words!!!

C. this question above assumes that B is correct and since we already know u were confused when you typed B ,then the premise of C can be eliminated all together...Besides we all know who the azz is in assume!

the bible states that God is a spirit and those that worsphip him, worship HIM in spirit. Th world and the Spirit will never understand each other from a humanistic perspective and that can be found in scriptures.The bible states that the Soul is the seat of our earthly affections, desires, emotions and our own personal will. With that said, i would state that 1. something is morally good b/c GOD says so,1. I praise God b/c he is GOD not b/c he is moral- so that was a flawed guestion either way, and lastly, i have to say logically it is b/c God understands what morality is about, taught me and was graceful enuff to place inherent qualities within me so that i can completely and logically have complete faith in HIS ability to understand the reason for morality as i understand it this day....



Check!!!



two can play at the intellectual game . the one said it best when they said sumthing that pertains to the wisdom of the world not meaning anything... Besides, i like you,am quite skilled at taking lines and curves and putting them in preferential sequences/positions that make them appear to have meaning!
Achmed
2008-12-18 01:32:26 UTC
Your idea of morality and where it comes from and what it is, is all wrong. The laws made from the norms of the free societies of England and America were formed from their belief in God and in the Ten Commandments. And this is what has brought America to the point were it was Just 60 years ago. If you examine when God was taken out of schools and mainstream area's of government, by the courts, you will see this is when things started to go wrong in our society. Such as the level of violence and drug abuse.

Research it yourself if you want to know the truth. And stop letting your teachers be the say all know all in your life. If you believe them you will think America is the evil ones and the people who kill the woman and children in the middle east for land are the good guy's. Wake up Man!
2008-12-18 01:31:58 UTC
I personaly don't follow any faith however I do know alot about christianity. According to the bible God dosn't want people to tortcher or any thing eles for that matter that causes harm to another person as God is the only being wise enough to decide if such actions are appropriate. That is why it says God is the only judge and that is also whyh Jesus taught to love and care for everyone equaly regardless of their status. One of the lessons of the bible in fact is that people often justify crule and horrible act by Gods work however these are soley human made decisions and do not follow the law of God. I don't know much about other religions but if you ever hear a christian say their doing something imorale in the name of God they are either lyeing or do not understand the religion they claim to be a part of.
martin a
2008-12-18 01:29:03 UTC
A. Being a mortal is a test... When we do good then of course we go to that place with our God, like most religions. It's not torture. I am not tortured, I don't feel bad or wrong for being here...that really just doesn't make sence to think that.



C. Mortality is defined by the fact that we die, not anything to do with torture.



1. Yes. We base almost everything on that. American laws are based on most of God's laws. No killing, stealling, so on...We say things are morally good because God says so. Things are right or wrong based on the laws He gave us and we consider those things morally good soully based on that.



2. I'm not sure why people praise him so much though....Maybe it is because they revere a higher being. I'm not really sure about this though.



3. I don't think it says anywhere that torture is wrong...

I personally believe if there is no purpose then it is wrong. Why put someone though pain without cause??



(knight to e4...)
Cajunboy
2008-12-18 01:38:51 UTC
I see your problem already! We can begin with

A. God does not encourage torture of the innocent and he does not command that we do so. In fact he does the opposite. What you are citing is God's anger on a nation in early times when the Israelites were so immoral that God , with all his sense of omnipotence, knew that the Israelites were not going to adhere to moral and also lawful codes of conduct. So he simply found another way to begin fresh with mankind by allowing his son to suffer and die for our sins. Note that it is our discernment and understanding that we are to treat other the way we want to be treated. Last time I checked, I wasn't even thinking about taking my own life and never have.

You can answer your own questions by responding to this thought,

Who determines you "chess game?" You or has an arbitrator predetermined the rules and scoring technique? The same applies only on a much greater scale! As long as one is informed about the outcome of a game/situation he/she makes their determination about what path to take. All the nicely disguised terminology in the world and the fact that you just studied "arbitration" does not get to determine the outcome of Man and God or Christian and non-christian. The simply fact is, "If there is a God then all you have said is in vain." You lose! You lose the opportunity to be with us in Heaven for the eternity God promises us all. If I lose, then I die and turn to dust and it's over, or accoding to you philosophy anyway! So you see, you have more to lose if we can include beyond this lifetime. I have nothing to lose but, just trying to be a nice guy for the benefit of others gain and your chess game.lolol

Peace and Merry Christmas

Cajunboy
yesmar
2008-12-18 01:29:39 UTC
You are half right. In fact morality does stand as it's own reward and is it's own definition apart from the fact that God is moral Himself and the two happen to coincide. That does away with the silly question " why did God have to sacrifice His own son to pay for us breaking the rules He Himself made up?" In fact it is the immorality of humans that separated us from God ( if indeed morality stands on it's own) and he did have to "take some action" on our behalf. If He is "good" and we have been "bad", the two must be reconciled somehow. Now, the part where you are wrong. God is not into "torturing" anybody and the concept itself is foolish and unbiblical. I asume you are referring to the standard "burning in hell forever" scenerio that is commonly thrown around in religious circles, but I can assure you that that false concept is completely man made and does not reflect God's character at all. Thanks for sharing.
white ranger omg
2008-12-18 01:27:15 UTC
Yea i disagree to an extent with the muslim. (Sorry couldn't remember your name mate, hope you don't mind me putting you in a category lol).



People are indeed all capable of a normal standard of morals and to live their life morally correct, however religion decreases the chance of people doing this because of what that specific religious scriptures and head of the religion say.



For example most muslims of faith try live their life by the koran, they are taught that if they leave their religion they will be punished, same for christians.



However muslims and jews also take on the sick role of mutilation of the genitalia, which is barbaric and should be illegal.



"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
purrrrfectionist
2008-12-18 01:25:57 UTC
Everyone is inherently good. There are those who choose to make bad decisions. God instituted the golden rule.. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. God is the authority on moral behavior. He created the world and the people and animals that inhabit it. I think people genuinely wish to like all people, but there are exception. some people to hate and that is sad. Some people chose to act immoral. People know what is acceptable and what is not. They choose and we have to deal with it when they make the wrong one.
Unity (for the USA)
2008-12-18 01:22:35 UTC
You think too much.



Morality is morality. It doesn't matter what the source is. God desires us to be moral.



I praise God because He is God, a concept you do not understand at this point in your life. I pray some day that you will.



Peace and God bless! :)
2008-12-18 01:24:11 UTC
I agree with Austin C. Faith isn't about morals and besides not all Christians think their morals are better than others.
Austin C
2008-12-18 01:18:23 UTC
I am a Muslim but I believe all people regardless of Faith have the same capacity to be moral becaue morals are relative.
oldguy63
2008-12-18 01:21:15 UTC
At any time anyone is welcome to write a better moral code than what was written in the Bible. Many have tried, but none have succeeded. If you look closely at it, there are reasons for every moral law given.
2008-12-18 01:23:25 UTC
Christianity is not even |Monotheistic to begin with...



They're like having a split tounge of the serpent who believe in three equal Gods but then say that they worship only One God!



Forget about debating them, they're totally confused themselves!



And last they have diffrent conflicting beleifs that's why they fight and kill each other.



A great Satanic religion...
2008-12-18 01:17:08 UTC
Ah, no cigar.



Try again only contemplate freewill and responsibility, they are inseparable.



Only ONE could walk the walk, Jesus Christ.

We all fall short, you do understand "all", don't you?



The law is our schoolmaster.



Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.





Christ is the WAY of salvation.

Christ is the TRUTH of His Word

Christ is the LIFE everlasting





Merry Christmas !!
atheist622
2008-12-18 01:25:40 UTC
Lol at Buddy R.



This time I heard that this group of Christians went to pillage and ransack this village because they thought differently. They raped, murdered, and stole. Keep in mind though it was "In the name of God" so it is alright.



Christians are insanely stupid it seems.
Jeniv the Brit
2008-12-18 01:41:12 UTC
I think because it doesn't harm people.

I think God will not do what He hates.

I think it depends who your God is.

I praise God because I believe that He is the one who created me.
beek
2008-12-18 01:20:45 UTC
You say you have a code but don't say what that code is. what is your standard of code and who says so? You, or someone else? Gods code of standard is HIs own being and where He is righteous, His standard is righteous. If you name your own code its more likely that your not as righteous as He is.
2008-12-18 01:29:37 UTC
How long has it been since you've been laid?



Hats off to you for coming back with a mom joke. So seriously, how long has it been?
2008-12-18 01:18:03 UTC
1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.



Check.
angel
2008-12-18 01:19:38 UTC
God is love. Love does not bring sorrow.
Holly
2008-12-19 07:07:29 UTC
Don't worry, no dilemma. :) It's actually quite simple. On the subject of morality and good..here's my answers in detail:



God is good. Anything He does/says/ect. is ultimately good. To explain this, look at the interesting origin of the word "good" The word good = derived from "O.E. god" "having the right or desirable quality," from P.Gmc. which interestingly enough, look at the origin of the word GOD--> O.E. god "supreme being, deity." They are the same. Yes, that's right..the word billions of people in history, cultures, and languages understand (God) is derived from the word GOOD. Morality and good can NOT be defined by what fallible and carnal man decides, as it is ever changing and unreliable but by the all-powerful, omnipresent, omniscient God. Man never seems to get it right. (i.e. Hitler thought he was doing good by destroying an innocent race, suicide bombers think they are doing good by killing Christian heretics, some societies think it is good to kill unborn babies for the mother's convenience), so with the preconceived understanding that good and morality depend upon one's definition of the word, morality takes on a new meaning. If one is a true Christian and believes in God then they would automatically acknowledge that God is good and the basis for morality. This is how God and good relate:



God is not good because He does good things; things are good because God does them. You see, God is the standard of good, so I guess to answer your question about if something is acceptable because of God, then yes, it is good. You see, God has also given mankind that standard of good in something called a conscience. It says this in the Bible in Romans 2:15 (NKJV) "who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them" and also see Hebrews 10:16.



For example, God, in his ten commandments gives the law "Thou shalt not steal." see Exodus 20. If I were to steal something or in your example, torture an innocent person, my conscience would be screaming at me and telling me it is wrong. This is God's way of secretly informing all of us concerning what is "good" and what is not. Now, there is such a thing as a seared conscience. Guilt is the feeling produced by a violated conscience. The Bible speaks of a "good" conscience, and among other things, a "seared" conscience. A seared conscience is one that has lost its life on the outside, like a seared steak. The conscience has become callous so that it loses its ability to feel guilt.

To put it another way, if one dulls their conscience so that they don’t feel guilt, they are like a man who removes the batteries from his smoke detector, because he doesn’t want to be disturbed by its alarming sound. The conscience is there to warn you, and it should drive you to the mercy of God in Christ. That may not seem like a big deal now, but it will on Judgment Day. When it comes to morality, men usually define what they do as "good" because they do not feel guilty. Again, it doesn't matter whether one feels guilty. Even if one has hardened his or her conscience so you they no longer hear it, they still are guilty before a righteous God. The God-given sense of guilt is there to warn you of your condition of guilt so you'll do something about it.

Finally, to answer your question, there is no such thing as "one's label of morality." There is and can only be one true morality, and man does not decide this. When people base their actions on their own idea of morality, then disastrous consequences results. Hello chaos.

Morality is not something people can argue over whether one's view is better--because even for one to determine that a certain standard of morality is "better" than the other, you have to hold both to a higher absolute standard. Morality is not debatable. Morality is an absolute, and God is that absolute standard. To those who deny God, morality becomes quite a confusing issue, because God is no longer the standard, and fallible man is left to muse and ponder.





It's very simple.

God IS Good.

Good IS God.



God IS the reason it is good. Good is good because it is God. You cannot separate the two. The reason IS God.



That may be a little difficult to grasp for those who label good and morality based on what they personally embrace and those who deny God, but when you understand Good being God, and God being Good, then it makes perfect sense. Those who deny God are really left to their own fallible choices. And I noticed one answer said that "Christians" have done horrible things in the name of God.I'm sorry, but if they are referring to the true God, then those were not true Christians, and simply hypocrites. There is something known as false conversion. For example, people who claim to have been Christians and became atheists were never Christians in the first place..because to be a Christian, one must have a relationship with God and know God. You cannot know God and then deny His existence. People nowadays toss the word "Christian" around as a social category. But a true Christian is one who acknowledges their need for the Savior, repents, follows the law of God, bears fruit, and follows Christ in everything they do. Now yes, people make mistakes, but a true Christian falls into sin whereas a false convert dives into it. The true Christian sins against his will, whereas a false Christian sins because of his will. The true believer brings forth the fruit of a new lifestyle, a lifestyle that is pleasing in the sight of Almighty God. If we are rooted and grounded in Christ, it should be evident. Jesus said, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He that abides in Me and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit.” Colossians 1, speaking of the gospel, says “the gospel brings forth fruit in the believer.”

Okay, what does the Bible mean when it speaks of fruit? Specifically? Well, #1, the fruit of repentance (Matthew

3:8).

I remember reading some years ago about a store that said in a newspaper they found a brown paper bag outside

their door on a Monday morning. They opened it up and there was a pair of pants and a note that said, “I stole

these from you on Friday, became a Christian on Sunday. Here’s the pants Monday. I’m sorry.” That’s fruit of

repentance.

Secondly, the fruit of good works. Colossians 1:10

Number three, the fruit of thanksgiving (Hebrews 13:15). I mean, if you’re soundly saved, there should be a cry

within your heart, “thanks be to God for the unspeakable gift.”

Number four, the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22). It should be evident in, “love, joy, peace, patience, goodness,

gentleness, faith, meekness, and temperance.”

Number five, the fruit of righteousness (Philippians 1:11). There should be the fruit of that which is right, the fruit of

righteousness in your lifestyle. Remember Matthew 3:10 says, “every tree that brings not forth good fruit will be cut

down and cast into the fire.” Therefore as Christians, in our evangelistic endeavors, we should do everything we

can not just to get decisions, not just to get church members, youth group members, but to produce fruit-bearing

commitments to Christ, because “every tree that brings not forth good fruit will be cut down and cast into the fire.”



Not to get off topic, but basically, God is Good and Good is God. So morality follows that standard. Since no one is good according to God’s standards (We’ve all broken the ten commandments [God’s moral law] at one point) We need a Savior. Since God is good and holy, he cannot allow sin to go unpunished. So God died and took the punishment for our sin on the cross..Wow! When you understand this hope, then you truly become thankful, reverent, and understanding of God’s true and unwavering goodness.

Isn’t God good?



:) best wishes and merry Christmas.
Markers
2008-12-18 01:36:52 UTC
Myself as graciously saved by Christ Jesus can't claimed i am good but with my Lord Jesus Christ, He is my righteousness!

1. Christ Jesus will be the one to :1Co 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.



That i don't rely with my own knowledge and understanding for truly God has given me the gift of knowledge but i found out i am nothing without Him who graciously shared and imparted some of His wisdom. Amen. Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



Therefore, challenging a True Born Again Christian is just like challenging the Head of the Church (body of Christ Jesus), who is my Lord Christ Jesus. Amen.



So, are you ready to face my Lord Jesus Christ?

Exo 15:2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.



addendum: how far you play chess?(this is an earthly wisdom but maybe we could play one day and you may see the wisdom of God within a True Born Again Christian). so be it, in Christ Jesus. Amen.
Glacier
2008-12-18 01:19:19 UTC
lol@Selah



Pieces made of bent-together wire do not count on a proper chessboard.
Micheal L
2008-12-18 01:18:43 UTC
WHAT?


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...