Question:
Evolutionists/Atheists, can you dispute this quote from Chris Williams PhD.?
CELESTE
2012-03-15 11:43:03 UTC
"I am continually amazed by the incredible complexity of life. For example, each of us has a vast 'computer program' of six billion DNA bases in every cell that guided our development from a fertilized egg, specifies how to make more than 200 tissue types, and ties all this together in numerous highly functional organ systems. Few people outside of genetics or biochemistry realize that evolutionists still can provide no substantive details at all about the origin of life, and particularly the origin of genetic information in the first self-replicating organism. What genes did it require -- or did it even have genes? How much DNA and RNA did it have -- or did it even have nucleic acids? How did huge information-rich molecules arise before natural selection? Exactly how did the genetic code linking nucleic acids to amino acid sequence originate? Clearly the origin of life -- the foundation of evolution - is still virtually all speculation, and little if no fact."

Regardless of whether you believe abiogenesis is the foundation of evolution, which it must be or there would be nothing to evolve, can you dispute what he is saying?
22 answers:
2012-03-15 11:55:39 UTC
Atheism is not about evolution.





We have no evidence about what the first step in making life was, but we do know the kind of step it must have been. It must have been whatever it took to get natural selection started. Before that first step, the sorts of improvement that only natural selection can achieve were impossible. And that means the key step was the rising, by some process as yet unknown, of a self-replicating entity.



Richard Dawkins.
skeptik
2012-03-15 13:14:38 UTC
Well, I can dispute one part of it - "evolutionist" is a meaningless word as typically used by Creationists. They use it to imply some sort of religious belief. In reality, it's precisely equivalent to Biochemist, Astrophysicist, Vulcanologist, etc. They are all specialized subcategories of the general fields of science. A more accurate term is "evolutionary biologist."



For the rest, he's largely correct. Unfortunately for him and people who quote him, the correctness of his statement is irrelevant. Science would not be researching how life started if it were already a settled question. That's kind of how it works.



Incidentally, he is NOT a biochemist "at Ohio State University." He works at a company called Radiocarb Genetics. He received his PhD from Ohio State. That's not the same thing.



It's dishonest for DI to imply that he is currently on the OSU faculty. And ignorant of them to cite him that way if it's not what they meant. Either way, it doesn't make 'em look very good.



-----------

>> Evolutionist is the accepted vernacular word derived from: Evolutionism -- refers to the biological concept of evolution,[1] specifically to a widely held 19th century belief that organisms are intrinsically bound to increase in complexity.



Like I said, meaningless. "Evolutionism" is a creationist straw-man word. It doesn't exist. Any more than "gravitism." The only people today who believe that evolution actually claims this are Creationists.



Or did you not understand that "19th century" part?
Brigalow Bloke
2012-03-15 12:55:19 UTC
Abiogenesis is not the foundation of biological evolution.



The foundation of the observation that evolution is real comes from a comparison of existing life forms and Charles Darwin did not invent the idea of evolution, it predates him hy more than two thousand years, in fact it predates Christianity.



The mere observation that most terrestrial animals have four limbs is just the first step on that track. No matter whether bat or bird, human or lizard, the same basic pattern repeats over and over. If you move over to the world of plants, the same things are seen time after time. You can make further observations right down to the molecular level and you see the same thing time after time. There are databases stuffed with terabytes of this information, even patent offices have vast amounts of this.



And again you bring forward the same old tired, false argument. You can only talk about the improbability of some event before it happens. Shuffle a pack of cards very well, now lay then all out on a table, face up. The probability of them appearing in the order you found is 1 in 52! which is "mathematically impossible" but you cannot deny it happened.



Does it ever occur to you that a god might have created life and let it go at at that? Wound up the clock, so to speak, and let it run?



Abiogenesis is not the foundation of biological evolution. How many times does that have to be said on these pages? Don't tell me, I already know. It has to be said after every time some creationist fraud asserts that it is. It is the main characteristic of creationists that they lie, lie and lie again. This is where the criticism comes from. After some years as a visitor to these pages, I have never seen a creationist assertion that I didn't already know was a lie or could not easily find out.



Evolution might not be the whole truth, but creationism has no truth.



EDIT



"1.There is very objective evidence of Design that contradicts the current theory(or hypothesis) of abiogenesis.



And what precisely is this evidence? Bacterial flagellae as claimed by Prof. Behe at Dover, Pa in 2005? Further, the hypothesis of abiogenesis (which I repeat is not closely related to biological evolution) is not about the appearance of complete cells as we know them with large numbers of genes, proteins, lipid coatings, enzymes etc. It is about the formation by chemical and / or physical processes of self-replicating molecules. Like all creationists, you claim there is evidence, but you almost never provide it or give any link or bibliography.

.

2. They are questioning how Natural Selection and Mutation could result in the mass increases of complexity without intelligent direction "



This has been observed in nature. Go read the FACTS about genes being replicated in plants, which may be found on the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance site. See, that's a reference to a site with real information.



" 3. Other alternatives should be considered, like whether a higher intelligence evolved elsewhere on another planet that allows for self organization of highly complex molecular machines "



Why? Speculation about life elsewhere may be entertaining but it is only that. Why not sort out what might have happened here before bothering with other planets with totally or almost totally unknown environments?



"4. Is there an unknown mechanism much more intelligent than we are, as yet undiscovered by science, which could create life."



Now explain the origin of this intelligence, saying it was "always there" is not an answer.



"But if there is valid evidence of Design then why can't science just admit the "appearance of design or evidence of design"



I repeat, where is this evidence? The Discovery Institute claimed it existed and they got shot down almost 7 years ago. By Christians, as it happened.



You are not beating a dead horse, you are thumping a greasy spot on the ground where the horse used to be.
2012-03-15 12:45:41 UTC
How can I dispute someone who presents his opinions and does not back them up with facts.



Project Steve is a list of scientists with the given name Steven or a variation thereof (e.g., Stephanie, Stefan, Esteban, etc.) who "support evolution". It was originally created by the National Center for Science Education as a "tongue-in-cheek parody" of creationist attempts to collect a list of scientists who "doubt evolution," such as the Answers in Genesis' list of scientists who accept the biblical account of the Genesis creation narrative or the Discovery Institute's A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism. The list pokes fun at such endeavors to make it clear that, "We did not wish to mislead the public into thinking that scientific issues are decided by who has the longer list of scientists!" It also honors Stephen Jay Gould.



However, at the same time the project is a genuine collection of scientists. Despite the list's restriction to only scientists with names like "Steve", which in the United States limits the list to roughly 1 percent of the total population, Project Steve is longer and contains many more eminent scientists than any creationist list. In particular, Project Steve contains many more biologists than the creationist lists, since about 51% of the listed Steves are biologists.



The "Steve-o-meter" webpage provides an updated total of scientist "Steves" that have signed the list. As of 9 March 2012, the Steve-o-meter registered 1,191 Steves.
2016-03-13 06:17:21 UTC
The biggest problem with that quote is that Josephus intentionally avoided any mention of Christianity. In the 90's AD, just after the Jewish revolt, Josephus (in the employ of the emperor) wanted to distance Judaism from any "radical" sects. The fact that he doesn't mention Christianity anywhere else in the text is evidence that the quote is spurious. As for whether or not Jesus really existed, not a single reputable scholar questions the existence of the historical Christ. It is really pathetic how supposedly logical, educated and intelligent people will actually go against mainstream scholarship just to deny that Jesus of Nazareth actually lived.
2012-03-15 11:54:19 UTC
Just because he has a phd doesn't mean he understands the science behind Biological Evolution.

And, it sounds like he's already made his mind up that there is a god.

Evolution is a Scientific Fact. Genetic research has proved it. Modern medicine wouldn't exist without the knowledge of evolution and that knowledge helps to save lives.

Anyone who tries to interfere with that science and saving lives should be jailed and fined.

Creationists are out of touch with reality
Lrac Nagas
2012-03-15 12:16:45 UTC
The Discovery Institute registered the site where you got that quote from, so I would not take it seriously at all.



Domain ID:D116667524-LROR

Domain Name:DISSENTFROMDARWIN.ORG

Created On:15-Feb-2006 23:55:55 UTC

Last Updated On:17-Feb-2011 00:08:02 UTC

Expiration Date:15-Feb-2013 23:55:55 UTC

Sponsoring Registrar:Dotster, Inc. (R34-LROR)

Status:OK

Registrant ID:DOT-OVAB5UG6SNXE

Registrant Name:Matthew Scholz

Registrant Organization:Discovery Institute
Greg Davis
2012-03-15 11:50:49 UTC
"Clearly the origin of life -- the foundation of evolution - is still virtually all speculation, and little if no fact."



Yes, I will dispute this statement. Evolution is an observed fact which asserts that biological organisms change over time. Hence, they evolve.
?
2012-03-15 16:14:23 UTC
To begin - he mixes to concepts which have nothing to do with one another.



Evolution is change over time, nothing else.



Abiogenesis is a theory on how life originated. One has nothing to do with the other he mixes them both as if they were one.



When he has some idea about what he is speaking I will then comment.
Uberman
2012-03-15 12:01:02 UTC
Sure



But remember Unidentified Flying Objects are UNIDENTIFIED, not Identified as aliens.



So complex chemistry as of yet unexplained = unexplained. Not Magical super space creature who lives outside the universe said some magic words and created humans 6000 years ago.



Science knows it doesnt know everything. Otherwise it would stop.
grayure
2012-03-15 11:48:23 UTC
On the contrary, it's pretty straightforward. There are examples of non-living self-replicating molecules and processes such as sodamide and crystal growth, and life is simply a runaway version of that kind of thing. It's really sad that people think commitment to Christ is incompatible with accepting the reality of evolution.
M
2012-03-15 11:48:10 UTC
BTW, evolutionists don't need to provide the details of the origin, they study how and why things evolve. We don't just throw away economics or social studies that study how and why things in culture happen and work even though we have no clear answer on how it all originated.
lainiebsky
2012-03-15 12:03:28 UTC
He's saying that science does not yet know exactly how life developed. He is NOT saying that it's unknowable or that a magic man in the sky must have done it because it's too hard to understand.
?
2012-03-15 11:45:18 UTC
Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with the origin of life.



That we currently do not understand the origin of life does not threaten evolution.
XaurreauX
2012-03-15 11:49:12 UTC
Yeah, so what? I guess dentistry must be fake because no dentist has made a breakthrough in astrophysics.
2012-03-15 11:45:10 UTC
Evolution says nothing about the origins of life.



As for the origins of life, "I don't know" will ALWAYS be a better answer than "THE GAWD been done did it".
Acid Zebra
2012-03-15 11:45:37 UTC
Argument from complexity and ignorance, just worded better than most creation-numbskulls here would or could.
Rick L
2012-03-15 11:45:16 UTC
Sure...



Argument from Incredulity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance#Argument_from_incredulity.2FLack_of_imagination
2012-03-15 11:45:19 UTC
Wow, an appeal from ignorance and incredulity. How original.



Do you really understand how ignorant and stupid you people are?
2012-03-15 11:45:41 UTC
There is not one person who doesn't think that Chris Williams is an idiot.
Trjtrt
2012-03-15 16:56:23 UTC
FAIL and strawmans
2012-03-15 11:46:28 UTC
Most modern day scientist dont believe in evolution anymore, its yesterdays fad


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