So supposedly there are "thousands of historical documents" that prove Jesus resurrected, right?

Question

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AiJAMSs4ZvD6vPvimseWnx_sy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20080809123606AAlN83R&show=7#profile-info-f559469cfd0432954dce03ca40d43fe1aa


"Curiously, not one contemporary writer of that time so much as mentions Jesus. Not a single one. Some people still refer to Josephus as referencing him, but almost all historians have defined that as a forgery, since the style of writing differs so much from what Josephus usually produced.

If when Jesus died, there were such huge earthquakes etc, why is this too ignored by every single contemporary author? Surely someone would have noticed, and surely someone would have written about some young charismatic Jewish preacher who was sauntering around Judea performing miracles?

Yet nobody did.

Even in the 'new testament', there are contradictions. The accounts of the Resurrection do not support each other - yet how can this be, if the NT was 'divinely inspired'?

If indeed Jesus did exist, then he was just one of many preachers claiming to be the messiah. Most of them were crucified by the Romans, so it's entirely possible that Jesus did live and was killed by the Romans. The fact that not a single Jewish text nor document mentions him proves that he was either never there, or he was there at that time, but nothing remarkable." - Paperback writer



I asked to see even one of the "thousands of documents" but no one had even one to offer.

So, where did this claim come from? Why are people buying this when no one can produce any of these "historical documents"?

Answer 1

The first reference found outside of the bible mentioning this darkness which fell over the land during the crucifixion of Christ, comes from a Samaritan historian named Thallus, who wrote around 52 A.D. His work was quoted by another early historian by the name of Julius Africanus who researched the topic of this darkness and wrote the following: "Upon the whole world there came a most fearful darkness. Many rocks were split in two by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. It seems very unreasonable to me that Thallus, in the third book of his histories, would try to explain away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun. For the Jews celebrate their Passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the death of our Saviour falls on the day before the Passover. But an eclipse of the sun can only take place when the moon comes under the sun, how then could an eclipse have occurred when the moon is directly opposite the sun? (Scientifically it is impossible to have a full moon on the same day that there is an eclipse of the sun.) Another first century historian who also mentions this darkness was Phlegon who wrote a history entitled the "Olympiads. Julius Africanus mentioned a quote taken from the Olympiads which said: "Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth . . . It is evident that he did not know of any such events in previous years." Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen in his work ‘Against Celsus’ Book 2: "The darkening of the sun took place at the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus was crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place, Phlegon, I believe, has written an account in the thirteenth or fourteenth book of his Chronicles."

Answer 2

Sorry, I don't know where these "thousands of historical documents" attesting to the Resurrection would come from, unless someone is counting all the Bible manuscripts. (We could make that a lot more if we counted printed Bibles, but it wouldn't be any more convincing!) Whoever claimed those documents is, I fear, blowing smoke.



Only one Gospel writer mentions the earthquake, I think. (I just did a quick scan.) I lean toward regarding that as a bit of artistic license.



Some contemporary Jewish writers did eventually produce accounts. The writers of the gospels of Matthew and John are generally believed to be Jews; the writer of the Q document (now lost, but an identifiable common source for Matthew and Luke) was probably Jewish. Others wrote letters, a few of which we have.



Josephus doesn't offer a direct account of Jesus; as you say, that bit is a forgery. But he does write about later Christians (in terms that make it clear he was not one himself).



I don't know where the claim of thousands of documents came from, but it's also fair to note that any argument which assumes that everything written in that time had to survive is equally suspect, and a shortage of documents proves little except that we are free to base our beliefs, or disbeliefs, on other considerations.

Answer 3

Writings outside the Bible referencing Jesus,Writings confirming his birth, ministry, and death:



Flavius Josephus



The Babylonian Talmud



Pliny the Younger's letter to the Emperor Trajan



The Annals of Tacitus



Mara Bar Serapion



Suetonius (Life of Claudius and Life of Nero)



The NT Resurrection accounts do add up perfectly. 4 different people writing about the same account, they aren't all going to be exactly the same. If they were, they would be accused of collaboration and fraud. Each writer extenuates on certain details and he thought were more important and what he remembered specifically, because they weren't all together when all this went down in Jerusalem.



There are 24,000 copies of the NT from the ancient world. What is seond place? The Illiad, with a mere 600, and people think that is right on. Even the Biography of Cesear, the copies for that that number in 100's are dated almost 1,000 years after they were written, yet they are held to be accurate. The Bible, has 24,000, all from different geographical locations. So the evidence is overwhelming. And if you read the Gospels, they are wriiten as hisorical documents, read the intro to Luke, they were not recorded as bed time stories, but real accounts.



This is only the tip of the iceberg, I could go all day. It takes more faith to be an atheist than to be a Christian. You have blind faith, we have calculated faith.



www.oneheartbeataway.org

Answer 4

"thousands of documents"? So far I have only heard this from one anti-Christian Texian. The comment about Josephus being a complete frogery is also new. It used to be only that the proclmation that Jesus was the Messiah was a forgery.



There are only two references to Christians outside the Bible around the time of Jesus Josephus and Tactitus.



Most "Historians" don't doubt that Jesus existed as you seem to assert. Their question is how accurate the Gospels and other writings are.



Please take your anti-Christian rants and place them where we can't see them.

Answer 5

Texas Temptress,

I do not believe there are such records. I also do not remember finding any contradictions about the resurrection in the New Testament. Please refer me to a couple if you will. Have a great day and a wonderful week.

Thank You,

Eds

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Martin,

Thank You for the site and the information that you presented. I will want to read and study what you have presented. This is very interesting to me...

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Phil B,

Thank You also. This will give me several weeks worth of reading and studying. It will not come easy at this time because I was asked to preach very soon and have not yet begun the work of preparing that sermon.

Thank YOU,

Eds

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Answer 6

Christians, eh?



I think that the Bible is a poor source for people to base their lives on. It was written by man and there is no doubt that there will be mistakes or contradictions. That's God's perfection working for you.



Some believe that the Bible is undoubtedly true, that it works as its own proof that the stories proclaimed in the Bible actually did occur. If this is so, then where is Noah's Ark? Where is the evidence of the glass of water Jesus turned into wine? Where is the line where Moses parted the sea? Where is the Lot's wife, who turned into a pillar of salt after witnessing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?



That makes no sense! Historical documents can't be proven upon faith, which is what believing in the Bible gets you.

Answer 7

Even if I did provide you with a source for those documents, would you believe them? Would you believe a document stating that there was a man named Jesus who resurrected and performed miracles? Or would you just blow it off as you would the Bible?



I'm not saying that I do know where these documents are. I don't even know if they exist. But I wasn't one to say that they existed in the first place, and again, would you really start believing even if you saw theM?

Answer 8

Jesus is not mentioned in the Talmud. There is one obscure passage that makes reference to a man similar, but gives no name of Jesus at the time Jesus was supposed to have lived.

Answer 9

The Nazarene Church down the street from where I work has a mural showing Jesus rolling back the stone from the tomb. During Easter, they add strobe lights. Does that count?

Answer 10

There aren't any. When people try to site sources, those sources are 2nd-hand sources. Pliny never saw Jesus. He heard someone mention him years after he was supposed to have died. That's not a source.

Answer 11

I have studied theology for about 10 years now, and I have NEVER seen anyone claim that there are thousands of documents proving the resurrection. See, this is problem with the internet. You may as well come on here challenging the assertion that Abraham Lincoln was the King of England. People say things. That doesn't mean that they are repeating long-held or popular assumptions.

Answer 12

Jesus is referred to in pagan, Jewish, and Christian writings outside the New Testament. The Jewish historian Josephus is especially interesting. In the pages of his works (which even you seemed to believe is athentic based on his 'style of writing') you can read about New Testament people like the high priests Annas and Caiaphas, the Roman governor Pontius Pilate, King Herod, John the Baptist, even Jesus himself and his brother James. There have also been interesting archaeological discoveries as well bearing on the gospels. For example, in 1961 the first archaeological evidence concerning Pilate was unearthed in the town of Caesarea; it was an inscription of a dedication bearing Pilate’s name and title. Even more recently, in 1990 the actual tomb of Caiaphas, the high priest who presided over Jesus’s trial, was discovered south of Jerusalem.



Of course the New Testament documents are the most important historical sources for Jesus of Nazareth. No modern scholar thinks of the gospels as bald-faced lies, the result of a massive conspiracy. The interval of time between the events themselves and recording of them in the gospels is too short to have allowed the memory of what had or had not actually happened to be erased.



As for the "contradictions" ... "The Law of Non-contradiction," which is the basis of all logical reasoning, maintains that something cannot be "a" and "non-a" at the same time. For instance, it can't be day and night at the same time and at the same place. Therefore, if a biblical scripture violates this Law, it has been established as a contradiction. However, based on the same Law, two statements can differ without being in contradiction.



For example, one witness in a court case might testify that he saw two people at a crime scene, Jake and Sam, while another witness may only testify to seeing Sam. These statements are not contradictory. In fact, in a court of law, these statements could be considered complementary. This is the nature of many of the alleged contradictions in the Bible. For instance, in Matthew, we read that Jesus met two blind men. In Mark and Luke, we only read about one blind man meeting Jesus. In Matthew and Mark, we read that Jesus went to pray alone three times in the Garden of Gethsemane, whereas, in Luke, we read that Jesus went alone to pray on one occasion. Under legal rules of evidence and the Law of Non-contraction, these aren't contradictory scriptures, and yet they make all of the infamous lists.



It's really fascinating how many people reject the Bible by focusing on a little list of alleged Bible contradictions. Yet, when presented with the miracle of the Bible's structure, survival, integration, historical veracity, archaeological evidence, scientific insights, outside corroborating records, and hundreds of fulfilled prophecies (each of which far surpass any other "holy book"), people look the other way. When viewed alongside other historical writings, the double standard in textual criticism is obvious.

Answer 13

I'd also like to add that a thousands documents don't prove he existed. It can show that there were a lot of people saw something that they thought was a resurrection, but hardly proven. Maybe if they had a camcorder, it would be easier to believe them.

Answer 14

I need to correct what an answerer above me states, for he is wrong.



There is not ONE Jewish text that even mentions Jesus. Not one. He does not appear in the Torah. Or in the entire Tanakh. He is not mentioned in the Talmud either - yes, there's a reference to *someone* with that name but the dates don't mesh.



Jesus is not mentioned anywhere in any Jewish scripture.

Answer 15

So why is it that Martin S gives a whole list of documented evidence an he gets 5 thumbs down. Aren't you open to truth? No one is so blind as he who will not see.

Answer 16

There aren't any. I would guess that the people who say there are heard it from a preacher who got his information from a rather nether region of the body.

Answer 17

New Testament - In considering the New Testament we have tens of thousands of manuscripts of the New Testament in part or in whole, dating from the second century A.D. to the late fifteenth century, when the printing press was invented.



These manuscripts have been found in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Turkey, Greece, and Italy, making collusion unlikely. The oldest manuscript, the John Rylands manuscript, has been dated to 125 A.D. and was found in Egypt, some distance from where the New Testament was originally composed in Asia Minor.



Many early Christian papyri, discovered in 1935, have been dated to 150 A.D., and include the four gospels. The Papyrus Bodmer II, discovered in 1956, has been dated to 200 A.D., and contains 14 chapters and portions of the last seven chapters of the gospel of John.



The Chester Beatty biblical papyri, discovered in 1931, has been dated to 200-250 A.D. and contains the Gospels, Acts, Paul's Epistles, and Revelation. The number of manuscripts is extensive compared to other ancient historical writings, such as Caesar's "Gallic Wars" (10 Greek manuscripts, the earliest 950 years after the original), the "Annals" of Tacitus (2 manuscripts, the earliest 950 years after the original), Livy (20 manuscripts, the earliest 350 years after the original), and Plato (7 manuscripts).



Thousands of early Christian writings and lexionaries (first and second century) cite verses from the New Testament. In fact, it is nearly possible to put together the entire New Testament just from early Christian writings. For example, the Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians (dated 95 A.D.) cites verses from the Gospels, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Titus, Hebrews, and 1 Peter. The letters of Ignatius (dated 115 A.D.) were written to several churches in Asia Minor and cites verses from Matthew, John, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus.



These letters indicate that the entire New Testament was written in the first century A.D. In addition, there is internal evidence for a first century date for the writing of the New Testament. The book of Acts ends abruptly with Paul in prison, awaiting trial (Acts 28:30-31 (1)). It is likely that Luke wrote Acts during this time, before Paul finally appeared before Nero. This would be about 62-63 A.D., meaning that Acts and Luke were written within thirty years of ministry and death of Jesus.



Another internal evidence is that there is no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Although Matthew, Mark and Luke record Jesus' prophecy that the temple and city would be destroyed within that generation (Matthew 24:1-2 (2),Mark 13:1-2 (3), Luke 21:5-9,20-24,32(4)), no New Testament book refers to this event as having happened. If they had been written after 70 A.D., it is likely that letters written after 70 A.D. would have mentioned the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy.



As stated by Nelson Glueck, former president of the Jewish Theological Seminary in the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati, and renowned Jewish archaeologist, "In my opinion, every book of the New Testament was written between the forties and eighties of the first century A.D."

Answer 18

Seems that our mealy-mouthed fundies haven't been able to come up with a coherent reply thus far...I wonder where they all are?

Answer 19

I can not prov God exists, in scientific terms or standards.

You can not prove evolution by scientific standards.

So what is the big fuss all about?

Are you bitter, jealous, or just venting your anger?

Answer 20

Y do U think they call it "Blind Faith!"

Answer 21

That's just a typo. It should be "hysterical documents".

Answer 22

There are no historical documents. Christians rely on faith and faith only.

Answer 23

You're really stuck on this, aren't you? CNBC and FOX News must've missed covering this event.



Yup. That MUST be it.

Answer 24

no there isn't. there's no ifs and buts. there's zero proof of the crucifixion AND the resurrection

Answer 25

Isn't that confounding?

Answer 26

Exactly...

You can't even use the Bible to prove it.

Answer 27

They don't exist.

Answer 28

That's because they are not real.