Question:
Christians, should women remain silent in church?
?
2014-07-04 12:46:34 UTC
See
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+14:33-35&version=NIV

Also, are women pastors, teachers, authors or evangelists disobeying God by doing so?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy+2:12&version=NIV

I'm interested in what Christians think about this subject. I already know what the postmodern and feminists unbelievers think.
23 answers:
Dan the Man
2014-07-05 09:39:01 UTC
I TRIED TO ADD A LINK IN THE SOUCES AREA AND IT WIPED OUT MY ENTIRE ANSWER.



In a nut shell, this is what I wrote. You have to understand the historical context to know why Paul wrote what he did in 1 Tim. 2. In the mystery cults that were laced with Gnosticism women held all positions of authority. These teachings included the cult of Eve that believed women had a superior knowledge over men that men could not understand. It believed that since Eve gave birth to all humanity, and only women give birth, that they have a special knowledge that men could not attain.



In Paul's letter to Timothy, who was at Ephesus, which was steeped in this Gnosticism and the mystery religions, Paul says for the women to stop usurping authority over the men. This directly relates to the philosophy of the mystery religions that were all female led. It is clear Paul is on that subject because he immediately comments that Adam was first, not Eve, and that Eve was deceived. That strikes at the cult of Eve: 1. that all humanity originated from her, that since she was deceived, not Adam, it strikes at Eve's superior knowledge.



The thing is, Paul was addressing a specific issue at Timothy's church that the people he wrote to would have clearly understood, and Paul was not setting a precedent for all churches in history. Once you understand Paul was saying for those women to stop teaching this heresy on the creation and trying to order the church like the mystery religions were led then you will understand that it does not apply to the whole church, but only the congregation Paul wrote the letter to.



Women can teach men. To say they cannot is taking that verse out of it's context.



Here are some quotes from the article I linked to below.



"Paul must be bringing up the creation order, because this was a common Gnostic heresy that was being promulgated by female false teachers in Ephesus. Kroeger and Kroeger write, “Most Gnostic accounts show Eve as pre-existing Adam; in one account she is actually the hermaphrodite from whom Adam is drawn.”[8] In other words, Paul is setting these heresies straight: Eve wasn’t created first; Adam was!"



Here is a second quote from the link:



"Recent scholarship suggests that Gnostic-like myths opposed to traditional biblical values may have been afloat in Alexandria as early as the second or first cen­tury before Christ.’ Philo, who died in C.E. 45, utilizes the very theme which was to draw rebuttal by Paul: namely, mythologiz­ing Eve as the one who brings knowledge and meaningful life to Adam.[5] You can read these Gnostic texts for yourself in their book I Suffer Not a Woman (see Appendix 7). Therefore, the bottom line is this: there were women teachers in Ephesus who were distorting the creation account, and this was turning people away from following Christ. With this historical backdrop in mind, let’s interpret 1 Timothy 2:12-15."





A good book on this subject is "I Suffer Not a Woman" written by a husband and wife, last name Kroger.
2014-07-07 09:29:10 UTC
No. It is perfectly right for women to be heard in church, providing their contribution is uplifting and in harmony with the gospelo. Regarding women being pastors, teachers and the likes, I found this in the link which Annsan referred to:



"Many women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching, evangelism, and helps. Much of the ministry of the local church depends on women. Women in the church are not restricted from public praying or prophesying (1 Corinthians 11:5), only from having spiritual teaching authority over men. The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and to proclaim the gospel to the lost (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15).



God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This logically would preclude women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them."



I see Yahoo has been "tweaking" the format again, re adding links/videos etc. Anyway, I like to live dangerously, so I've posted the link. The only time I've ever had a violation notice for posting Got Questions links is when I use them to answer questions about Jehovah's Witnesses. Can't think why! LM
2 Shepherds
2014-07-04 14:13:38 UTC
Only if they cause disruption during worship services like those women Paul referred to. That's the context of those passages. The passages rightly state that these women should not have been spiritual leaders.



However (you knew there would be a however from yours truly), these passages in no way state that no woman should be a spiritual leader, and the truth is that scripture clearly indicates that some were indeed ordained to lead God's people. Deborah is an old testament example, and Priscilla and Lydia are new testament examples. I am blessed to be a female ordained spiritual leader.
Annsan_In_Him
2014-07-04 14:11:33 UTC
In the first century Church, women sang psalms and prayed, Philip's 4 daughters prophesied (Acts 21:9), a husband and wife team (at least one being named as Aquilla and Priscilla) explained the gospel to people, and so on.



Clearly, the instruction about silence in the church does not rule out women's voices being heard in worship and in sharing the gospel. Even in the OT Joel prophesied that God's sons and daughters would prophesy (2:28 cf Acts 2:17 where the fulfillment on the day of Pentecost included all the women, even though it was Peter who did the public preaching.)



Paul was writing to ensure orderliness in public worship, to stop a chaotic scene developing with lots of people talking at one time (due to the gift of tongues and interpretation). And he was also maintaining the God-given role of men as leaders and spiritual heads.



I used to be in a group that worked the women half to death with activities, even though they never allowed them to be elders. Then I became a Christian and moved to a church that gave the women freedom of speech much more so but moved towards having women deacons. Now I am in a church where the balance is just right; the men squarely shoulder all their congregational responsibilities and they will not move from the God-ordained role of men as leaders and teachers. But the women do not sit there with their mouths symbolically taped over. At the prayer meeting they are free to pray also, if they wish, or to remain silent. They support the men in many ways, including in teaching the children, but a man teaches the teenagers. I love it. I can soak up the teaching, the ministry, and know that I am supported by the men in my gospel outreach work. I have spent years at the church college, obtaining theological qualifications. Women are greatly respected and I have nothing but admiration for the men. My only difficulty is that when I have a question, I cannot ask my husband at home because he is not a Christian, but I just ask some of the menfolk in the church and they are happy to help. Np problems. It's good. It's all a matter of striking the right balance. In love.



I could give lots of links for more info but Yahoo has given me a violation notice for one answer where I gave several links with supporting information, so I just suggest that where you find a congregation with a lovely atmosphere of unity between the men and the women, you have that balance. There should never be a sense of the men keeping the women strictly in line, nor should there be a free-for-all with women vying with the men to be heard.
Yorkshire Lass
2014-07-06 10:56:19 UTC
In the context quoted re the Church at Corinth, women were advised to stop asking disruptive questions but were encouraged to prophesy and pray -by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Paul advised that men be taught by men. Teaching is a specific natural talent that often is enhanced by Holy Spirit Gifting.



The New Testament in several places refers to women prophets and there are those today who give a message to the church in a tongue or who have the Gift of translating tongue messages -obviously they MUST speak out - in order - when the Spirit prompts.



God uses women as leaders when men fail to submit themselves to God's call to be Christian leaders; the classic example of such a situation is when God anointed the prophetess Deborah, a married lady, a Judge over the people of Israel, this is remarkable and we can learn from this. See Judges 4



In my area, as in many others, in many churches there are many more women dedicated to the Lord and guided by his Spirit than men - this causes a problem in following the ideal model for church life as set down by St Paul.



It is desirable for every church to have at least one men's class meeting led by a mature Christian man with the teaching Gift, but this is not possible in very many small rural churches today in the UK; many such churches have folded.
?
2014-07-04 13:43:41 UTC
The two verses you linked to are somewhat taken out of context, as many verses often are. For the Corinthians passage, my understanding is that the church in Corinth had a problem at the time with chaos and disorder in the church, part of which was due to some women being disruptive within the church by speaking out of turn. Here is an article that addresses these ideas.



http://www.gotquestions.org/women-silent-church.html



As for the the Timothy passage, that is one of the most hotly debated doctrines within the church today. The passage indicates that women were not to have a position of spiritual authority within the church over men. So I do think that serving as pastors/elders/leaders of the church congregation should be restricted to men. That does not mean that women cannot serve in other capacities within the church as deaconesses (serving in some physical capacity), children's ministers, women's ministers, etc. I think that women are called as much as men to evangelize, minister/advise on an individual basis to others (including men as long as it is not from a position of authority within the church), and prophesy. As far as being "authors", as long as the woman is not claiming some kind of spiritual authority over men within her works, I see no problem with this. But church leadership and authority should be reserved for men alone. This is not because men are in some way better teachers, smarter, or better equipped than women. I believe God chose men as the spiritual head much in the same way He chose the Jews to interact with and initially receive His Law...they were not special, they were simply chosen to be the starting point. Similarly, men are not special, they are simply chosen to be the head because it is necessary that there be a head. Part of the reason men are chosen over women is that it is part of the curse of sin that Eve brought that "The man will rule over you."
Dee D
2014-07-04 22:06:04 UTC
In Jeremiah 31:22 a woman will compass a man.....She has given herself fully to God, and man have laid down the baton. I still believe a woman should not usurp authority over a man, but have Women Meetings with women in the church. A godly man will always lead his family in the Lord!
Tommiecat
2014-07-04 12:58:09 UTC
Why don't you read verse 36 and explain what it is saying.



Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? (1 Corinthians 14:36 NIV)



KJV version...



What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? (1 Corinthians 14:36 KJV)



My interpretation is does God only speak to men?
2014-07-04 12:53:52 UTC
If they are the chatty and disruptive women in the Corinthian church, yes. Keep in mind that the letters of Paul were answering specific questions. Most of it, we only get half the conversation. God doesn't say for women to keep silent, Paul says it specifically to the Corinthian church.



This is in the Bible because its applicable advice to others facing the challenges that the Corinthian church faced.
Doubting Like Thomas
2014-07-04 14:36:52 UTC
Rumor has it that the letter to the Corinthians was written by Paul, formerly known as Saul of Tarsus.



Maybe it was, maybe it wan't.



Another rumor has it that Paul wrote stuff because he was "inspired" by one of the Gods.



Another rumor has it that when Saul fell off his horse, and "saw" some person he had never seen or heard before, the ONLY explanation for seeing a person who is not physically present, in that particular case, is that the person Saul "saw" MUST have been the resurrected Jesus.



If you can believe the rumors, you can believe that at least ONE of the Gods wants women to shut the heck UP!



If you're as smart as the average woman, you might actually DOUBT those rumors.
The Lightning Strikes
2014-07-05 07:46:32 UTC
.

Should women be pastors and elders? There are those who would answer yes. But Paul says in 1 Tim. 2:12 that he doesn't allow a woman "to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet." Paul anchors his reason in the created order, "For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve." In other words, this is not a culturally based opinion. It is a doctrinal statement.



Nevertheless, there are counter arguments about these verses held by some Christians who assert that women can teach and exercise authority over men. Let's take a look at some of the arguments--right after we examine the context.



Context of 2:12-13 is in the epistle of 1 Timothy



It is always a good idea to examine a verse in its context but is also extremely helpful when we find a statement declaring the purpose of the right. We find just such a statement in 1 Tim. 3:15, "I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth." Therefore, the issue of authority that we are looking at here is meant to be in the context of the church.



Alright, now that we know the purpose of the letter, let's briefly outline the context of 1 Tim. 2:12-13 by looking at the beginning of the epistle.



1:1-2, Paul gives his introduction.

1:3-11, Paul warns Timothy about those who were teaching strange doctrines, and that such people (he lists unholy and profane examples in vss 9-10) were ungodly.

1:12-14, Paul thanks Jesus who is using him though he was once a persecutor of the faithful--even though Paul was ignorant during his persecution (1:13).

1:15-17, Paul writes about how Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom Paul was the foremost; yet he found mercy. Paul then gives glory to God.

1:18-20, Paul commands Timothy to fight the good fight against those who have suffered shipwreck of their faith. He specifically names Hymenaeus and Alexander who have been delivered over to Satan.

2:1-2, Paul urges people to pray for kings and for a tranquil life.

2:3-6, Paul speaks about God our Savior who desires all to be saved, that there is one mediator, and that Jesus gave himself was a ransom.

2:7-8, Paul says he was appointed as an apostle, and that he wants everyone (men specifically) to lift up holy hands in prayer.

2:9-15, General instructions to women (plural)

3:1-10, Instructions regarding the requirements to be overseers (plural) and deacons (plural).

3:11, Paul again gives instructions concerning women (plural).

In 3:12-13, Paul gives instruction concerning deacons.

3:14ff, Paul speaks about coming to see them, etc.

So, we have the context; and, of course, you should read the chapters for yourself for verification. But we can see that several different topics are addressed by Paul before we get to the verses in question. We, therefore, must be careful not to pick and choose which particular topic that precedes 2:12-13 and interpret in light of that extracted topic. We must look at the flow of what he is saying and do our best to understand the verses contextually.



Read more: http://carm.org/1-tim-212-13-and-women-pastors-and-elders



http://carm.org/should-women-be-pastors-and-elders



http://carm.org/another-response-paper-arguing-women-being-pastors
G C
2014-07-04 13:14:34 UTC
The only reason is because it is the rules of God. Men and women are equal in that Christ died for all, but different in gender, body, roles and responsibilities.
Golfer
2014-07-04 13:57:30 UTC
Women and men set in different areas of the synagogue and women if they couldn't hear would yell at their husbands ans ask what did he say thus interruption the service.
ladyren
2014-07-04 12:54:48 UTC
The three Abrahamic religions were all invented by men. And when the OT was written, women weren't treated too much better than a good cow. It is still that way in much of the world...women are sold into marriage at age 12 or even younger, to often, a really old man. Daughters even today, who disobey their parents are often stoned to death or have acid splashed in their faces. We all saw Malala shot in the face for pushing for education for girls.



These, however, are modern times, and women have civil rights, at least in First World Countries. If you think they ought to always be subservient to men, maybe you ought to move to one of those Third World Countries, which allow men to beat, abuse, and rape women with zero penalties. Why ought it to matter if the person speaking doesn't have what you have between her legs? Since when ought testicles and a penis be rated as a passport to anything?



I'd be interested in your answer.
Rob
2014-07-04 13:25:05 UTC
The problem is, as a true Christian. will you believe and follow the words of God, yourself, or the unbiblical feminism?



The bible plainly confirms that women should be silent in churches. The scripture also said that as it is said in the OT (law) which is another witness that women ought to be quiet and not usurp authority over men.



1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)



34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.



I do not see any room for assumption, deviation, or confusion in the passages above as it is also written that God is not the author of confusion, but peace.



1 Corinthians 14:33 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)



33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.



If thou shalt not murder is sufficient enough explanation to refrain from doing it, how is women must keep to themselves in church be subject to leniency and assumptions?



If someone claims to be a Christian yet justifies an action that is in contradiction to God's words, bible calls them bastards and not a child of God.



Matthew 12:46-50 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)



46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
James O
2014-07-04 17:18:37 UTC
No, some of our best readers and singers in church are women
?
2014-07-04 13:09:11 UTC
That would depend on your denomination. Some say yes some say no.

I just love Christian unity. All of you rowing the boat in the same direction, it is awesome to behold.
Scarborough Fair
2014-07-04 12:50:16 UTC
Everyone should be quiet in church except the pastor. It's rude to talk in church.
?
2014-07-04 12:50:01 UTC
There are women pastors and teachers. That Scripture that pertains to "silence" refers to synogogues where women and children were in a section to themselves. They often could not hear what was going on and wanted to ask, so they were told to ask when they got home and not disturb the service.
PaulCyp
2014-07-04 12:47:33 UTC
Not in my church. In the original and true Christian Church, the one Church founded by Jesus Christ, unordained woman do everything unordained men do, no exceptions.
2014-07-04 12:49:57 UTC
I know the corrinthians dude believed this & posted it non stop.



Not too many modern christians subscribe to such
2014-07-04 12:48:14 UTC
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Tiger
2014-07-04 16:41:35 UTC
1 Corinthians

14:33 confusion. Here is the key to the whole chapter. The church at worship before God should reflect His character and nature because He is a God of peace and harmony, order and clarity, not strife and confusion (cf. Ro 15:33; 2Th 3:16; Heb 13:20).



as in all the churches. This phrase does not belong in v. 33, but at the beginning of v. 34, as a logical introduction to a universal principle for churches.



14:34, 35 women are to keep silent in the churches. The principle of women not speaking in church services is universal; this applies to all the churches, not just locally, geographically, or culturally. The context in this verse concerns prophecy, but includes the general theme of the chapter, i.e., tongues.



Rather than leading, they are to be submissive as God’s Word makes clear (see notes on 11:3–15; Ge 3:16; 1Ti 2:11–15). It is not coincidental that many modern churches that have tongues-speaking and claim gifts of healings and miracles also permit women to lead worship, preach, and teach. Women may be gifted teachers, but they are not permitted by God “to speak” in churches. In fact, for them to do so is “improper,” meaning “disgraceful.” Apparently, certain women were out of order in disruptively asking questions publicly in the chaotic services.



11:3–15 There is no distinction between men and women as far as personal worth, intellect, or spirituality are concerned (cf. Gal 3:28). That women function uniquely in God’s order, however, submitting to men’s authority, Paul affirms by several points:



1) the pattern in the Godhead (v. 3);

2) the divine design of male and female (v. 7);

3) the order of creation (v. 8);

4) the purpose of woman in regard to man (v. 9);

5) the concern of the angels (v. 10); and

6) the characteristics of natural physiology (vv. 13–15).



Genesis

3:16 pain in childbirth. This is a constant reminder that a woman gave birth to sin in the human race and passes it on to all her children. She can be delivered from this curse by raising godly children, as indicated in 1Ti 2:15 (see note there).



your desire … he will rule. Just as the woman and her seed will engage in a war with the serpent, i.e., Satan and his seed (v. 15), because of sin and the curse, the man and the woman will face struggles in their own relationship. Sin has turned the harmonious system of God-ordained roles into distasteful struggles of self-will. Lifelong companions, husbands and wives, will need God’s help in getting along as a result. The woman’s desire will be to lord it over her husband, but the husband will rule by divine design (Eph 5:22–25). This interpretation of the curse is based upon the identical Heb. words and grammar being used in 4:7 (see note there) to show the conflict man will have with sin as it seeks to rule him.



1 Timothy

2:11 A woman must … receive instruction. Women are not to be the public teachers when the church assembles, but neither are they to be shut out of the learning process. The form of the Gr. verb translated “receive instruction” is an imperative: Paul is commanding that women be taught in the church. That was a novel concept, since neither first century Judaism nor Greek culture held women in high esteem. Some of the women in Ephesus probably overreacted to the cultural denigration they had typically suffered and took advantage of their opportunity in the church by seeking a dominant role in leadership.



quietly … submissiveness. “Quietly” and “submissiveness” (“to line up under”) were to characterize the role of a woman as a learner in the context of the church assembly. Paul explains his meaning in v. 12: Women are to be silent by not teaching, and they are to demonstrate submission by not usurping the authority of the pastors or elders.



2:12 I do not allow. The Gr. word for “allow” is used in the NT to refer to allowing someone to do what he desires. Paul may have been addressing a real situation in which several women in Ephesus desired to be public preachers.



to teach. Paul used a verbal form of this Gr. word that indicates a condition or process and is better translated “to be a teacher.” This was an important, official function in the church (see Ac 13:1; 1Co 12:28; Eph 4:11). Thus Paul is forbidding women from filling the office and role of the pastor or teacher. He is not prohibiting them from teaching in other appropriate conditions and circumstances (cf. Ac 18:26; Tit 2:3, 4).



exercise authority over. Paul forbids women from exercising any type of authority over men in the church assembly, since the elders are those who rule (5:17). They are all to be men (as is clear from the requirements in 3:2, 5). remain quiet. See note on v. 11.



2:13, 14 A woman’s subordinate role did not result after the Fall as a cultural, chauvinistic corruption of God’s perfect design; rather, God established her role as part of His original creation (v. 13). God made woman after man to be his suitable helper (see note on Ge 2:18; cf. 1Co 11:8, 9). The Fall actually corroborates God’s divine plan of creation (see notes on Ge 3:1–7). By nature Eve was not suited to assume the position of ultimate responsibility. By leaving Adam’s protection and usurping his headship, she was vulnerable and fell, thus confirming how important it was for her to stay under the protection and leadership of her husband (see notes on 5:11, 12; 2Ti 3:6, 7). Adam then violated his leadership role, followed Eve in her sin, and plunged the human race into sinfulness—all connected with violating God’s planned roles for the sexes. Ultimately, the responsibility for the Fall still rests with Adam, since he chose to disobey God apart from being deceived (Ro 5:12–21; 1Co 15:21, 22).



2:15 women. That Paul does not have Eve in mind here is clear because the verb translated “will be preserved” is future, and he also uses the plural pronoun “they.” He is talking about women after Eve. will be preserved. The Gr. word can also mean “to rescue,” “to preserve safe and unharmed,” “to heal,” or “to deliver from.” It appears several times in the NT without reference to spiritual salvation (cf. Mt 8:25; 9:21, 22; 24:22; 27:40, 42, 49; 2Ti 4:18). Paul is not advocating that women are eternally saved from sin through childbearing or that they maintain their salvation by having babies, both of which would be clear contradictions of the NT teaching of salvation by grace alone through faith alone (Ro 3:19, 20) sustained forever (Ro 8:31–39). Paul is teaching that even though a woman bears the stigma of being the initial instrument who led the race into sin, it is women through childbearing who may be preserved or freed from that stigma by raising a generation of godly children (cf. 5:10).



through the bearing of children. Because mothers have a unique bond and intimacy with their children, and spend far more time with them than do fathers, they have far greater influence in their lives and thus a unique responsibility and opportunity for rearing godly children. While a woman may have led the human race into sin, women have the privilege of leading many out of sin to godliness. Paul is speaking in general terms; God does not want all women to be married (1Co 7:25–40), let alone bear children.



if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. The godly appearance, demeanor, and behavior commanded of believing women in the church (vv. 9–12) is motivated by the promise of deliverance from any inferior status and the joy of raising godly children.



MIMI


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