LDS, Mormons, Are Some things that are true are not very useful?

Question

Why hide the truths??

Why are they facts, good or bad..."not very useful"

Talk from Boyd K Packer at BYU...
"Church history can be so interesting and so inspiring as to be a powerful tool indeed for building faith. If not properly written or properly taught, it may be a faith destroyer…

"There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not. Some things that are true are not very useful…

"The writer or teacher who has an exaggerated loyalty to the theory that everything must be told is laying a foundation for his own judgment...The Lord made it clear that some things are to be taught selectively and some things are to be given only to those who are worthy…

"That historian or scholar who delights in pointing out the weaknesses and frailties of present or past leaders destroys faith. A destroyer of faith - particularly one within the Church, and more particularly one who is employed specifically to build faith - places himself in great spiritual jeopardy. He is serving the wrong master, and unless he repents, he will not be among the faithful in the eternities…Do not spread disease germs!" (Boyd K. Packer, 1981, BYU Studies, Vol. 21, No. 3, pp. 259-271)

Why suppress truth??

Answer 1

I think it would have been useful to know before I had spent so many years, so much misplaced love and trust just to be left standing alone when I really needed what the church promised. Thank you for the quote, that makes sense now why things are suppressed, it is suppressed from the top down and that makes me want to cry...

Answer 2

It's less suppression of the truth, and more "if you really want to know, and need to know these things - they're available to you." It's the same as in school, there are some things which it's good to know, but which you will never use, or which will confuse the facts, as it were.

I believe that a person who dwells on the negative, the horrific, or the base things that have happened is looking for a way out, and puts their intellect and morality in a risky place. Like, viewing the glass half empty when it's really half-full.

Our faith in the gospel should not be based on the frailties of one man, or woman, or event, or principle - we have enough of the good yet to learn, and should not waste time learning about the bad - it will still be there.

Answer 3

Boyd K. Packer answers the Rhetorical question Joseph Smith posed:



"Why persecute me for telling the truth?" Joseph Smith-History 1:25



Packer's comments were made in defense of the September Six disciplinary proceedings and those that followed.



People like Michael Quinn who published unvarnished truth were made to pay for it.



(Ironically, he is heavily quoted and cited in the FAIR article linked to below)



Former Asst. General Counsel to the CIA Michael Barrett was also excommunicated. He explains how it occurred in an article found here:



http://www.mrm.org/topics/testimonies/michael-j-barrett-excommunicated-publicly-confirming-lds-teaching



The truth about post-manifesto polygamy and the church....especially the fascinating way in which the church dealt with it, makes for illuminating reading.



see:



http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Polygamy_Prophets_and_Prevarication.html



http://en.fairmormon.org/Polygamy_after_the_Manifesto



It was during this period that telling the truth not only could be sacrificed if it meant potential harm to the church, you could also lose your membership as well, as a couple general authorities were to find out.

Answer 4

You mean like the truth that I just barely ate an orange?



Doesnt seem useful to me.

Answer 5

why did you leave out parts of the talk?



Did you supress the truth?



John 16: 12

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.



2 Cor. 12: 4

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.



Sounds like the latter day saints are the only ones living an ancient biblical principle to me - since nobody else has the fullness of the gospel they don't have much to say anyways - if they hid anything there wouldn't be anything left....

Answer 6

Sounds to me that what Boyd K Packer is getting at is that we shouldn't be focusing on the negative. For example, nobody wants to think of Moses as a prideful man who sinned against God when boasting about his power. True, that did happen, but what about the great miracles he did? What about the great power with which he humbly lead Israel for so long? Are we really going to let one instance of pride and boastfulness get in the way of seeing Moses as a man and prophet of God? This is why it's important to sustain our leaders. Otherwise we're just going to tare them down and keep them from doing more good that they would otherwise be able to do with our sustain and support. If the world were a lot more selfless, then a lot more good would be accomplished.

Answer 7

Choosing what to teach isn't the same as suppressing the truth. If you were in peril, would you want to talk about the weather in Zimbabwe? Of course not. A true friend would warn you, not waste your time until it was too late.



Unfortunately, I think you are past feeling. I think your heart is hard as a rock, and you can no longer be touched by the Holy Ghost.

Answer 8

IRONY



Here you go about how we shouldn't be hiding things; then you make your point with quotes that include a sentence and then ". . . ."



I've read the talk, the entire talk, what he says makes sense.



Your point of view only makes sense from the standpoint that those leaders are bad men rather than good men; in your prejudgment it now sounds like a cover-up, but here is the irony.



YOU USED FRAGMENTED QUOTES TO CRITICIZE BOYD PACKER FOR BEING SELECTIVE IN THE CONTENT WE TEACH.



Give me a freakin break!

Answer 9

We do not hide anything at all. If you are referr to the temple where we do our sacred ordanances then that is not secret. If you need to find out more about the church then why don't you go to www.mormon.org or go to www.lds.org. I am sure you can find that these two websites very helpful.

Answer 10

First, name one church out there that doesn't have something bad in their history. I'll bet you can't find one.



Second, do you think that men don't have the ability to act, or think, or say things for themselves? Not everything that is done by leaders are done under the direction of God. We may not understand everything they say, or what is meant by certain things. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have faith. It just means that there are things that we don't need to know yet.



Just because there are bad things in the past doesn't mean that we all need to know those things. They aren't secret. Anyone can find out about them. They just aren't things that need to be taught in lessons.

Answer 11

I know what he means, there's some stuff in the New Testament, about women wearing veils and stuff.....not useful at all..



However the Church is probably the most open one in all things, they even published the stupid Salamander Letter. Good that they bought it and kept it to be tested and proven a fraud..

Answer 12

A few general authorities have said that including Brother Oaks on the PBS series on LDS a few years ago. There were a few things written in the 1970s and early 80s where historians liberal and even some conservative wrote journals, books and papers on various things in Mormon History that are true but the general authorities don't like people knowing like The word of Wisdom wasn't enforced as something a temple endowment person need to do until later or tithing wasn't institued until Lorenzo Snow and the windows of Heaven sermon. The Church historical papers were moved from Salt Lake to Provo around the early 80s and kept under more wraps there. Personally it doesn't bother me at all.

Answer 13

I agree with Ross. Why supress the truth? What truth? The "truth" you find on anti-Mormon websites? The "truth" that is mixed with misconceptions and lies? IS it still truth then?



The ONLY truth you will EVER find will come ONLY from God. Any other source - how can you trust it?



Is that last paragraph not actually describing people such as yourself? People who dig and dig and try their hardest to find some "controversial" subject they can smear the gospel with??



Why do you think there are standards set to attend the temple? Should we just open the doors for every spiritually immature person out there so they can degrade the sacred nature of temple ordinances? Apparently it worked for you!



Should we start teaching our children algebra before they know how to add or subtract? Should we teach a 5 year old about the marriage covenant? What about someone who is spiritually immature? Should they know every single little thing about the gospel before they even have the chance to learn and grow in it? Are we not counseled from the bible to learn line upon line, precept upon precept?



We get it Oceanwoman. You had a bad experience. But, to blame the church is a cop-out. You are free to make your own decisions. At some point you must have felt the spirit, believed it, were baptized, got your recommed and went to the temple - otherwise you LIED. Not the church. YOU were the one. OR, you are telling more lies now and just don't want to be held accountable for the things you've done and are doing.

Answer 14

Healthy religions, people and organizations have nothing to hide and thrive on all the information they can get their hands on..about themselves, their history, and their beliefs. They own up to past beliefs they no longer hold as true. They invite scruitiny. They agree to reasonable accountability. They make sure new converts get the full story of their beliefs and practices before joining. Not Mormonism. Not by a long shot.



The Mormon or LDS church excommunicates scholars who publish research that is not faith promoting. Historian Michael Quinn is a prime example. He published a historical piece that showed that the LDS church practiced polygamy far beyond the 1890 manifesto. He wasn't sharing opinion but facts. He was excommunicated for doing so.



LDS leaders and apologists must villainize critics and those who leave. Remember it can't be the church, so it MUST be the critics or the former member. These are hallmarks of a cult.



Grant Palmer published a summary of historical insights on Mormonism in his book, An Insider's View of Mormonism. I recall one LDS critic attacking him for not sharing every fact on a particular subject, yet I know of no LDS leader, historian, or apologist who does. Rather they say they have a sacred duty to inspire faith and leave alone the things we don't fully understand. Hello? Do we have "stupid" written on our foreheads?



Regaining credibility is possible. LDS Apostle Marvin Ashton gave a speech on honesty. He said that we should never tell a half truth to meet our own needs but be completely honest. He said that when we fail to tell the whole truth, that we should confess our lack of judgement full to begin the process of building trust again. I look forward to an LDS church that takes its own advise.

Answer 15

He was teach a principal. A principal taught by the ancient prophets long ago to a apostate covenant people.



Isa. 55: 7-9

7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will bundantly pardon.

8 ¶ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.



This same principal is what was the downfall of the Jewish nation at the time of Christ. Review your history a bit and you will see the coorelation and vital aspects of these teachings.



If this doesn't suffice, consider the manner in which the Savior taught in parables.



Matt 13

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.



Here the theme is continued in the New Testamant as well.



1 Cor. 3: 2

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Heb. 5: 12

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Answer 16

What it is referring to is that when you try to tell somebody about certain things, most likely including the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you can't just shove everything down their throats at the same time. You have to slowly feed them information over a period of time, so that they can more fully understand what is being taught to them. So technically, it isn't suppressing the truth, it is simply holding it over a longer period of time. It is also saying that he who does nothing but point out the negative points in anything is only going to destroy his own faith in the matter. Yes, there is negativity in the world around us, but instead, focus on the positive, faith-building aspects.

Answer 17

No one is suppressing anything.



Some things are hard to accept in any religion. History can be written to make anything look bad. If you dont have a testimony about the church then its pretty easy for someone to twist the history and the doctrines of the church to make it look bad.



Some people dont have a basic understanding of certain principles and so more in depth principles would confuse them or they wouldnt quite understand the purpose of them.



Would you teach a person calculus without teaching them basic algebra first?



Noone is taught not to study up and learn about church history or doctrine but its also not encouraged to study in depth doctrines if you dont even have a handle on the basics. Its up to the individual to determine where they are at and how far and in depth they want to study.



People act like the church hides things. That is ridiculous. I grew up in the church and I know all the socalled "hidden" facts of the churchs past and its doctrines. I guess they didnt do a very good job hiding these things.



Its up to the individual to learn. Its not up to the church to force people to do their research.



So many exmormons never really took the time or effort to really study up on church history or in depth doctrines. They may have gone to church all the time but that doesnt mean they really cared to know any more than they were barely willing to pay attention to and then they blame the church for hiding things from them. Ridiculous. People need to take responsibility for their own choices. If you chose to stay in a church for 30 years without ever really studying it in depth then that isnt the churchs fault. There are plenty of opportunities for more in depth church classes and discussions as well as a wealth of knowledge now online and in books for anyone to read up and study. If a person chooses to stay in the dark then its not the churchs fault and blaming the church and accusing them of hiding things because they are too lazy to do the work is just an excuse.







ACI

and you might as well be standing on your pedastal declaring to the world why you are right and everyone else is wrong and whatever you say must be true



That is how arrogant your comments are! You dont know me. You have no clue what my religious path has been or what I know or was taught.

Answer 18

Because the LDS can't handle the truth. They can only handle what they believe.

Answer 19

all the truth is out there.



All truth is important.



Not all truth is equal.



Would you teach a 3 year old sex education? Why not? Do you tell everyone everything about you? Why not? Because some things people don't need to know and those who do need to know do know them if they know you long enough and might have run if you spilled it all on the first date! We're all that way....



its a universal principle....

Answer 20

it is clearly "HIS" opinion



it is very definitely NOT THE SPOKEN WORD OF THE LORD.



it is my opinion, that facts are facts, if they are known they should not be Censored otherwise, it is leadership that brings false teachings into public view. but if the facts are limited to understanding, the conclusions can be something evil as well.



The bible clearly says: those that lead you cause you to err. Personal opinions are not the words of God and all people in the world are guilty of speaking their OPINIONs. many people claim their personal opinions are the will of the lord. when it is clear many millions of times, it is not.



however to defend Boyd K packer, there is an issue of faith that he brings up. and there is also the reliability of facts and the interpretations of those facts that must be considered in the balance.



i watched a pbs documentary on the history of the church and they came to an interveiw of 3 different historians. Each studied the same issues and each came up with a different conclusions. SO FACTS as they were discussed were NOT truth in probably 2 of them. so it also depends on their interpretations.



all general authorities too, are men, they are faliable. they are not infalible. the doctrines of the church have switched in many cases from revelation to tradtitions. and this makes falible men suseptible to incorrect translation and personal opinion as well.



it is written No man can have a Vision or a revelation for the church unless the church recognizes a person as one who is given the authority and the gifts to do so.

but it must also be recognized that men often hold office without authority even if it is said they have authority. Men have made errors in these two categories ever since Abel was called a prophet. and in 20 years as an active lds member, i only recognize ONE talk as being a revelation. from a general authority. MOst talks even at general authority level in my opinion are personal teachings and opinions. remember there is only ONE PROPHET for the entire world. and I have not seen any of them give a prophetic announcement since Pres Kimbal.

president Benson said something in Gen Conf when he said ALL is NOT well in Zion. yet since then several leadership authorities have said all things "are well in zion".

so i think there is some dishonesty on this issue.



disclaimer : i am well known to say somethings that are not politically correct and sometimes incorrect. i admit this but i am still a witness and NO man can take that away from me. NOR can most fulfill my mission or obligation thereof. my obligation will cease when i give my last breath.



there will be MANY things i will be in jeopardy of being judged, but I dare say it is my opinion that so will church leadership for the last 100 years.



i am not anit mormon and will never be. My personal revelation denies me this. but i am not one to be walked over like salt that loses its savor, nor will i be regulated and categorized to limit my truth. I will not be forced by anyone to walk on eggshells and be commanded to NOT break any of them.

I am not completely BLIND and do not bend to politcally correct leadership or suffer Peer Pressure to be politically correct.

I have kicked against the pricks, like a cactus needle, and i have had my life destroyed for sake of the name of jesus christ and for the gospel. but i will not stand by and let a priesthood be corrupted by priestcrafts and secret combination. I know the world is polluted thereof from.

Answer 21

Because the truth might make some members question their faith, and no religion wants to lose members.



Added: There are many, many things that I was never taught growing up in the church, and things that many recent exmormons say they were never told about. Saying the church doesn't try to hide the truth is a blatant lie. You're told not to read anything that is critical to the church or isn't "faith-promoting."

Bottom line, though, is that if you want to believe in it the facts won't matter to you.

Answer 22

i do not know

Answer 23

From Packer's point of view it is not useful to know:



- that Smith 'translated' the Book of Mormon by putting 'seer stones' in his hat.

-that there is not even one piece of evidence that unequivocally supports the existence of any person, place or event unique to the Book of Mormon.

- that scientific evidence is unequivocal that Native Americans are descended from Asian immigrants, not the 'lost tribes of Israel' as claimed by Smith and every church prophet since.

- that there have been 4000 changeds to the Book of Mormon.

- that Smith told several vastly different stories about the 'first vision'.

- that Smith abused his position as a church leader to convince 33 women to become his polygamous wives.

-that 1/3 of them were teenagers and 1/3 were already married (clearly not meeting the virgin requirement of Secion 132).

- that Smith lied to his wife Emma about his dalliances with other women.

- that Smith continuously lied to the public and his followers about his polygamous marriages.

- that the Book of Abraham papyrus is really just a typical Egyptian funerary text and has nothing to do with Abraham.

- that Smith's revelations were changed, sometimes so extensively that their meaning was completely changed.

- that Smith started an illegal bank in which many of his followers lost their life savings.

-that Smith made numerous false prophecies.

- that Smith was fooled by the hoax of the Kinderhook plates which he had claimed he could 'translate'.





Not useful? Not useful for what? Keeping the faithful ignorant of the facts? Making sure they stay and pay?

Answer 24

Kelly T, cadisney, WitnessofJesus - y'all might as well stick your fingers in your ears and shout "lalalalalalala, I CANT HEAR YOU" and put your heads deeper in the sand.



If you believe LDS, Inc. fine. However, there are outright lies and distortions that have been proven and some of the membership who do know of these things still choose to ignore and/or gloss over such things. That's their choice. They/you want to believe, Mo'ism works for you. It's hilarious really, how much people want to spin things to their liking.



I just could not be a part of something that would not disclose such relevant and important facts. I would have been living a lie if I picked and chose what I wanted to believe and adhere to and ignore what I didn't like about the religion. I found out cold, hard FACTS. LIES. An organization that is supposed to be rooted in God has no place for lies, half-truths and distortions.



There is just something about sheeple that are so afraid of what they don't know that keeps them blind. Yes, it's easier to just go with the flow, pick out the things you like about the religion and just do/believe those things. I found ONE lie. I knew that if there was ONE lie, there had to be more. There was. I liked the church, the teachings, the social aspect of it all, the Word of Wisdom, the callings I had, I LOVED the people. But ONE lie changed everything. I can't be a part of something so important to me (then) who would hide things. If someone is going to allow something they think is so essential in their lives, then it HAS to be integrity at it's highest. Mormonism's teachings,history and especially its founder are not.



Joseph Smith lied and covered up a lot of important things. Some of those things were found out while he was still alive but some people chose to ignore them and follow him blindly anyway for a myriad of reasons. He used a lot of fear tactics to coerce people into sumbmission. The church still uses that today. If you don't do what "God" says, then you have to suffer the consequences. God doesn't punish or take anything away - ever. It's just a fear tactic to keep people in line. One of the largest fear tactics the church uses is that the members will be seperated from their families for eternity if they don't live up to the rules. No one really needs fear of something to keep them in line.



If one has a fear that something bad will happen to them or something will be taken from them either spiritually or physically if they don't follow the rules that should be a huge red flag! There is not one good reason for a god to use fear tactics to keep his creations in line. Not one.



***EDIT***



If you are going to let such a thing as religion rule your life there MUST BE FULL DISCLOSURE. No exceptions.

Answer 25

Because some truths are embarrassing to the Church, and the leaders have little if any good explanations for them. For just a very few examples (there are dozens):



1. Why President Hinckley couldn't exercise his prophetic "discernment" to identify a faithful LDS from a fraud, charlatan, and murderer.



(See for example:



- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salamander_letter

- http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/salamander.htm







2. Why LDS Church leaders keep saying that women don't have Priesthood, when in fact, Joseph Smith GAVE them Priest(ess)hood, they wear the "robes of the Holy Priesthood" and function as Priestesses in the Temple, and both scripture and modern revelation refer to them as "Queens and Priestesses" --



See for example:



Changing Doctrines: Women & Priesthood:

http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?boardID=5605&discussionID=391486







3. Why Heavenly Mother is clearly considered a "Goddess", but cannot be spoken of, discussed, or even "meditated upon" in personal, private prayer --



See for example:



Queen of Heaven:

http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?boardID=5605&discussionID=316429



Heavenly Mother - why the church's explanations are Bogus:

http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?boardID=5605&discussionID=386770



~Gaia