Question:
Atheist Darwinists: If genes aren't involved in morphogenesis then what value is your theory?
2008-10-13 12:39:58 UTC
You ask the Evolutionists: "what causes evolution"?

"Mutations in genes" they retort.

"OK..." you respond, "but what do genes actually do?"

"They code for amino acids that make up the proteins used in cells."

TRUE.

The problem with this explanation of evolution is that genes do not actually specify how an eye is formed, or a leg, or a brain for that matter( although regulator genes play some role) : 99% of the 25,000 genes in the mouse genome have their counterpart in the human genome also consisting of 25,000 loci( gene locations).

But there are clear differences in form between a man and a mouse.

So if all the modern gene-centric theory of evolution can account for is the changes in proteins but not how cells group together in a coordinated manner to form the various organs and traits familiar to each species and genus, what exactly is its relevance?
21 answers:
Gary Oster
2008-10-13 13:08:55 UTC
Evolution science is of course, concerned with how populations change over time and how traits are passed through generations.



Morphogenesis research was advanced tremendously by genetic study, but is concerned with more than inheritance of traits -- as you said, genes cannot, alone, be responsible for the organization of cells, but that doesn't refute evolution theory.



The ordering of cells is (as far as I understand it) largely the nature of the physical properties of cells to group together, fall in line or remain separate, similar to how protein chains and atoms form molecules.
2008-10-13 19:59:52 UTC
So what you're saying is that a difference in only 1% of the genetic material of both men and mice is able to produce the difference between a mouse and a man. (On the basis of your statement that 99% are the same!)



I am certainly not qualified to disagree with you, so I'll accept your figures.



That must also imply that a very small change in the genetic makeup of an animal is able to produce a very large variation of form.



I think you have just given an extremely plausible account of how evolution can progress without requiring vaste genetic mutations, but only rather more simple ones.
novangelis
2008-10-13 19:59:56 UTC
Subtle modifications in genes change the timing over which cells grow, differentiate and die over development. The absence of a 1:1 correspondence of every gene with every trait does not mean non-involvement.



Since you want to go to a computer analogy, the same subroutine may be used in two different tasks. A bug in it might affect the output of one, but not the other. You may be able to use the altered return as a feature.
Psyched Gabby
2008-10-13 19:54:27 UTC
Go to the biology section buddy.



Just like people have pointed out your argument is greatly flawed. Not only that... I nearly fell out of my chair when I read your own words that answered your question.



<<99% of the 25,000 genes in the mouse genome have their counterpart in the human genome also consisting of 25,000 loci>>

The mistake here is calling these counterparts. They are the equivalent but not nearly the same. This however, points out how closely related the two species are, LOL.



You're so funny. Now go pay Donna child support for your beautiful atheist children. You dead beat.
2008-10-13 22:47:04 UTC
You understand jack about genetics chief. Genes most certainly do code for the structure of the eye.



Gene expression is more than just the proteins they encode. These protein products interact and their levels of expression, as well as their combinations in different tissues and at different times, produces the different morphological presentations of very similar genes.



Do yourself a favor and buy an introductory genetics book. Or at the very least learn about gene expression. It will prevent you from saying such a retarded statement in the future.
2008-10-13 20:02:59 UTC
You are totally wrong. Differences in proteins, gene expression, and timing of gene expression -- all traceable back to the genome -- do account for how cells group together to form tissues, organs, traits particular to a species.



Embryonic development is not guided by a divine hand for every pregnancy.



Crikey.
DNaRules
2008-10-13 21:44:04 UTC
An organism is not a closed system, the information content of a living cell can rise if the information on its surroundings falls. Another way of expressing this is that information flows from the environment into the organism. Life avoids decay via the second law of thermodynamics by importing information, or negative entropy, from its surroundings. The source of biological Information , then, is from the organism's environment.
Upasakha Jason
2008-10-13 19:46:56 UTC
You've only accounted for one portion of evolution: mutation. You haven't accounted for natural selection, which acts on the phenotype, not the genotype. It is also based on population thinking, so you don't see evolution occurring in the individual, but you do see it occurring in a population over time. So from the standpoint of natural selection, the genotype is only indirectly influenced.



EDIT--what precisely do you define as a species? If you really think about it, it's not so neatly defined as the essentialists (which are comprised of creationists these days) think. The minute that you see that species, genera, families, etc. are not nearly so neat and clean as the essentialists would like to convince people, you'll see that species is not something that is set in stone, and can in fact change over time.



I'm also calling you on equivocation. You're using "mutation" in two different contexts. In one sense, in your main question, you use it to mean transcription errors in cellular reproduction. In your additional details, you're using it as a synonym for pleiotropism and polymorphism, neither of which are transcription errors.
2008-10-13 19:55:26 UTC
"JUDE: I know how my computer works from the transistor-on-silicon level right up to the operating system - but then I majored in computer science."



Right...so why are you asking this in R&S where you'll mostly be talking to laypeople, and not in the science section where you'll get an educated response?



Are you afraid to talk to those who majored in Science and Biology? You should be.
2008-10-13 19:45:15 UTC
I don't know to many people who understand the theory of evolution that say that mutations cause evolution--adapation which yields an improved chance of survival is one of the main mechanisms of evolution--and results from sexual reproduction.
meissen97
2008-10-13 19:53:18 UTC
The Biology section is that way ------------------------------->



Oh yeah, just so you know Darwinists are not evolutionists.



Edit: "Then why do Dawkins , Lenksi and others call themselves "Neo-Darwinists?""



Why don't New Yorkers say they are from York, England?? Huh?? Answer that!



Neo means New, k thx.
2008-10-13 19:48:11 UTC
yeah yeah,...we've heard all this before







i doubt anyone knows the real answers to how man got here.

we just refuse to believe the bibles account. mainly because i refuse to believe we came from dirt and wind, and i don't believe anything else the bible says mainly because i know for a FACT the earth isn't flat as the bible asserts.
2008-10-13 20:07:49 UTC
CALL ME WINKY: You refuse to believe we came from dirt and wind and you dont believe a thing the bible says... this makes sense.. so I take it you believe we were made from compressed star dust and by accident evolved from an ape like creature... riiiight.
Eschew Obfuscation
2008-10-13 19:48:56 UTC
If you wanted a real answer and not a pat on the back from other creationists, you would have asked this in the biology section.
Derpy Hooves
2008-10-13 19:49:23 UTC
Amino acids control the shape of proteins, which, you know, control the shape of the structures.



You make me so sad, Pastor. :(
The Bald Satyr
2008-10-13 19:47:49 UTC
Apart from your major faux pas regarding the title of your question, you also got this in the wrong section.



Try science.
2008-10-13 19:46:06 UTC
You're out of your league. You failed with the first two words: the Theory of Evolution is not Darwinism. You have proved that you don't know nearly enough to challenge one of the foundations of biology.
?
2008-10-13 19:49:40 UTC
You know what - I don't understand how my computer works either, but I still believe it exists. Same goes for evolution.
2008-10-13 23:20:28 UTC
Most genes contain the information needed to make functional molecules called proteins. (A few genes produce other molecules that help the cell assemble proteins.) The journey from gene to protein is complex and tightly controlled within each cell. It consists of two major steps: transcription and translation. Together, transcription and translation are known as gene expression.



During the process of transcription, the information stored in a gene’s DNA is transferred to a similar molecule called RNA (ribonucleic acid) in the cell nucleus. Both RNA and DNA are made up of a chain of nucleotide bases, but they have slightly different chemical properties. The type of RNA that contains the information for making a protein is called messenger RNA (mRNA) because it carries the information, or message, from the DNA out of the nucleus into the cytoplasm.



Translation, the second step in getting from a gene to a protein, takes place in the cytoplasm. The mRNA interacts with a specialised complex called a ribosome, which “reads” the sequence of mRNA bases. Each sequence of three bases, called a codon, usually codes for one particular amino acid. (Amino acids are the building blocks of proteins.) A type of RNA called transfer RNA (tRNA) assembles the protein, one amino acid at a time. Protein assembly continues until the ribosome encounters a “stop” codon (a sequence of three bases that does not code for an amino acid).



The flow of information from DNA to RNA to proteins is one of the fundamental principles of molecular biology. It is so important that it is sometimes called the “central dogma.”



This is ultimately expresses through embryo-genesis or Embryonic Development.



Morphogenesis is one of three fundamental aspects of developmental biology along with the control of cell growth and cellular differentiation. Morphogenesis is concerned with the shapes of tissues, organs and entire organisms and the positions of the various specialised cell types. Cell growth and differentiation can take place in cell culture or inside of tumor cell masses without the normal morphogenesis that is seen in an intact organism. The study of morphogenesis involves an attempt to understand the processes that control the organised spatial distribution of cells that arises during the embryonic development of an organism and that give rise to the characteristic forms of tissues, organs, and overall body anatomy. In the human embryo, the change from a cluster of nearly identical cells at the blastula stage to a post-gastrulation embryo with structured tissues and organs is controlled by the genetic "program" and can be modified by environmental factors. The term morphogenesis can also be used to describe the development of unicellular life forms that do not have an embryonic stage in their life cycle, or to refer to the evolution of a body structure within a taxonomic group. Morphogenetic responses may be induced in organisms by hormones, by environmental chemicals ranging from substances produced by other organisms to toxic chemicals or radionuclides released as pollutants, and other plants, or by mechanical stresses induced by spatial patterning of the cells.



Several types of molecules are particularly important during morphogenesis. Morphogens are soluble molecules that can diffuse and carry signals that control cell differentiation decisions in a concentration-dependent fashion. Morphogens typically act through binding to specific protein receptors. An important class of molecules involved in morphogenesis are transcription factor proteins that determine the fate of cells by interacting with DNA. These can be coded for by master regulatory genes and either activate or deactivate the transcription of other genes; in turn, these secondary gene products can regulate the expression of still other genes in a regulatory cascade. Another class of molecules involved in morphogenesis are molecules that control cell adhesion. For example, during gastrulation, clumps of stem cells switch off their cell-to-cell adhesion, become migratory, and take up new positions within an embryo where they again activate specific cell adhesion proteins and form new tissues and organs. Several examples that illustrate the roles of morphogens, transcription factors and cell adhesion molecules in morphogenesis are discussed below.



Morphogenesis arises because of changes in the cellular structure or how cells interact in tissues. Certain cell types "sort out". Cell "sorting out" means that when the cells physically interact they move so as to sort into clusters that maximise contact between cells of the same type. The ability of cells to do this comes from differential cell adhesion. Two well-studied types of cells that sort out are epithelial cells and mesenchymal cells. During embryonic development there are some cellular differentiation events during which mesenchymal cells become epithelial cells and at other times epithelial cells differentiate into mesenchymal cells. Following epithelial-mesenchymal transition, cells can migrate away from an epithelium and then associate with other similar cells in a new location.
Dan ಠ_ಠ
2008-10-13 19:45:34 UTC
That's like saying 'If God does not exist how do Christians account for creation?'
interested1208
2008-10-13 19:51:48 UTC
I like you...



You bring humor ...


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