Question:
(Atheists) Is there a message that doesnt come from a mind?
tucker
2008-08-25 06:25:08 UTC
DNA is not just a molecule..it is a coding system with a language and alphebet, and contains a message...so, show me a message that doesnt come from a mind.

God is intelligent.
22 answers:
Blue girl in a red state
2008-08-25 06:28:25 UTC
I'm sorry but Yahoo is taking a breather now.





btw, you are aware that plants have DNA too? Where is the plants mind?
jtrusnik
2008-08-25 06:52:50 UTC
DNA is just a molecule that happens to split and copy itself in certain chemical conditions that are naturally occurring. This is provable.



What is not provable is that there is "organized information." It appears that way only because of natural selection: those molecules that damage the organism in some way will not be passed on to offspring. Over millions of years of weaning out the damaging parts and promoting the parts that work, DNA appears almost perfect.



Consider clouds that form randomly. If you find an apparent "picture in the clouds," you're only looking at a tiny portion of the sky, ignoring the other clouds for the sake of the picture. Just like the clouds, you're ignoring the times when DNA is damaged or otherwise in bad condition and can't be passed on, or when something deadly was transmitted.



Here are a few genetic disorders:

Cystic fibrosis (chromosome 7)-invariable fatal, most deaths occuring the 20s.

Duchenne muscular dystrophy (chromosome disputed)-most prevalent muscular dystrophy, apparent before the age of 6. Walking often requires an aid by the age of 10. Death usually occurs during the teens or twenties; only a few lucky cases lived longer.

Canavan disease (chromosome 17)-Degenerative disease that damages nerve cells in the brain. Death occurs by the age of 4.



You're thinking an intelligent designer did this to children. I see these as the results of recessive genes (and that is what they are), which only remain because carriers with only one gene live other-wise normal lives. My method makes sense. Yours proposes that a conscious being is deliberately taking the lives of the young; by any other definition, that's murder.
2008-08-25 06:28:58 UTC
DNA.



DNA is an ordered system that formed because of an influx of energy. Your error is in assuming that it takes intelligence to create order, generally supported by a complete misunderstanding of the Second Law of Thermodynamics.



DNA became an ordered system because there was an influx of energy that was able to do useful work at the molecular level -- it's called sunlight.



You make the further logical error of assuming at the beginning what it is you want to show at the end. This is logically invalid. You never stop to consider that perhaps there IS another explanation. You have your one explanation and have no wish or interest in exploring other explanations, rendering your view on the whole point rather... moot.



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When a crystal solidifies, its matrix can contain impurities that essentially encode information about its environment while it crystalized. Where a silicon atom should have been, a carbon atom is found instead. This shows that it was in a mixed environment.



Do you intend to assert in some way that crystals are put together molecule by molecule by God?



Further, you again assume your way is the only right way, and show yourself clearly uninterested in genuine answers.



But.



DNA behaves in the way it does, coding as it does, for one reason -- fundamental laws of physics, specifically those involved in atomic and molecular formation. It didn't take an intelligence to 'code' DNA because DNA is not technically a code at all. It's just a bunch of molecules interacting in an ordered way that gives the illusion of information.



Of course, you're now going to reject this entirely, or, if you're a little smarter, ask me where those fundamental laws came from, and commit the same logical error you started with alllllll over again.



So.



I'm just going to sit back and enjoy a good laugh at your expense.



---------------



*yawns*



Sooooo... are you ever going to get around to proving that in fact DNA is a code or message?



Because, you know, I took coding theory as part of my degree in computer science and we specifically looked at that claim. There's not one bit of evidence to support any assertion that it is in fact a message.



See, I keep seeing you saying DNA must have been designed, but you never say WHY. You say, "It is a message, so it must be designed." Okay, prove it's a message and you have a point. Care to explain in what mathematical way it's a message?



Do you even know, in a mathematical context or computational context, what a message even is?



-----------



Very good, you do at least know the definition of a message.



In order to have a message, you must have two actors.



Would you kindly identify the actors in your claim that DNA is a message?



Whom is sending it and whom is receiving it?



------------



Well, we all knew you were done, you had a closed mind from the very beginning.



You might wanna open that door once in a while. It's a beautiful and spectacular world out there, but only to an open mind.



---------------



OM NOM NOM® Z'wut I du :



Um, no, I'm an atheist, thanks though.
2008-08-25 06:45:15 UTC
DNA is a sequence of nucleic acids with the property of self replication. In science and in law it is just a molecule. It is quite possibly not the first self replication molecule, it is possible that RNA was first.



In some respects they do not differ from the seed crystals that some crystallographers put in saturated solutions to induce the formation of more crystals. The crystals that are grown have the same structure and are obviously more numerous and usually larger than the few added. This is carriage of information and self-replication.



The ratcheting effect of evolution on a molecular scale seems sufficient to elaborate the structure of early self replicating molecules.



The origin of the first self replicating molecule is not known. It certainly was not as elaborate as a modern bacterium or even a virus.
Mr.Samsa
2008-08-25 06:33:20 UTC
DNA does not contain a "message." The information contained within the proteins that form DNA sets forth the genetic instructions for how an organism's body is structured. It is not a communication to any third person.
San Miguel
2008-08-25 06:37:53 UTC
Your "God" is not intelligent, and neither are you.



No one in his/her right mind could actually believe that the petty, jealous, sadomasochistic, megalomaniacal, and genocidal despot that is the god of the Christians exists. The god of Abraham is one of the worst gods ever imagined in the whole history of imagined gods.



Even if I agree with you that DNA contains a "message" that comes from a mind (which I don't because it's absurd), why should I conclude therefore that "God is intelligent?" Do you know what a "non-sequitur" is? Monotheists have this chronic habit of using it whenever they epically fail to argue for the existence of their god.



Edit: Yeah, you're done. Your brain is toast.
2008-08-25 06:31:57 UTC
The "coding system, language and alphabet" of a molecule of DNA is one assigned by scientists. It's simply a molecule that responds to the information it stores.
The Wizard's Baker!!!
2008-08-25 10:47:55 UTC
There can be 2 possibilities. when moelcules can reproduce themselves. the successful ones survive. the unsuccessful ones are destroyed in the ethers of time.



its not intelligent. its not design. there is reality and non-reality.



a god concept cannot exist within and not be affected by time. if god were intelligent and real. he would exist within time. and would change until he too gets lost into the ethers of nothingness.



the "you" that existed 10 years ago. is gone. don't be sad when you change until you no longer have form.
Just_Call_Me_Shady
2008-08-25 06:37:06 UTC
uhm, you do realize that scientists gave it a "language" and letters so it would be less confusing to understand.



Maybe you should learn more about something before you ask a question on it.



Humans are intelligent.



You seem like you just typed a bunch of random stuff to try to make yourself look more intelligent lol.
Guess who's going to Hell?
2008-08-25 06:59:57 UTC
JP took your claim apart (and possibly others but I didn't read beyond that). It's a claim that is frequently made and is always false.



You'll have to get used to being wrong if you want to be an ID creationist. They're simply wrong about everything all the time.
The Cat in the Tin Foil HAt
2008-08-25 06:37:27 UTC
Geology.



The very Earth and the rocks convey a message through the decay of the elements from one to another.



and the message they send?



The Earth is 4.5 Billion years old.
David M
2008-08-25 06:35:22 UTC
The message from tree rings telling us about past weather conditions does not come from a mind.



The message of sedimentary rock telling us about geological change does not come from a mind.



The message of ice core samples telling us about glaciation does not come from a mind.



The message of red shift telling us about an expanding universe does not come from a mind.



DNA only has an alphabet because ACGT are the letters we gave the component pairs to identify them. The rest of it is simply data.
Dr pushpinder k
2008-08-25 06:37:32 UTC
I think, laughter, because it comes from no mind.

I do not know how you relate DNA with mind.

DNA is matter, soul is pure energy and mind is the bridge between the two.

It is confusing.
2008-08-25 06:29:17 UTC
God is not intelligent. Show me proof of god. DNA is not showing me any kind of message about him. Oh, you all are hopeless trying to make us atheists believe.
2008-08-25 06:31:11 UTC
Crazy AND ignorant, what a perfect combination for religion.



I'd answer seriously but you won't listen anyway. See also the crazy part. If you want a serious and good answer see JP but I think you thumbed it down as soon as you saw it.
2008-08-25 06:29:08 UTC
Because a message came from the mind, therefore god exist?



Now, isn't that intelligent ...... LOL.
2008-08-25 06:31:51 UTC
All of this big, showy creation from such a shy and uncommunicative god, it's like he doesn't want people to believe he exists. I don't.
sadloner07
2008-08-25 06:30:52 UTC
Okay... wow your pretty smart.



Now I have to go back minding my own business.
2008-08-25 06:28:03 UTC
Show me God.



Scientists are intelligent, Christians are delusional.
Ghost♂
2008-08-25 06:31:39 UTC
DNA is not proof of god, scientists are intelligent.



you are delusional...
2008-08-25 06:30:28 UTC
"...so, show me a message that doesnt come from a mind. "





Does this also mean God came from your mind?



-dun dun dun-



JP, as long as you are agnostic, your last point can stand as valid.
Dasd A
2008-08-25 06:27:43 UTC
show me the mind


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