Jehovah's witnesses, what type of logic do you use to back up the teaching that the 144,000 is a literal number?

Question

Lets be honest here. You don't take Israel to be literal, you don't take the 12k or the tribes literal, you don't take the virgin part literal, so basically the only thing that you take as literal in the entire passage is the 144,000 part.....

Also, the number 12 often times means completion. So to me the number would mean a complete number or PHYSICAL ISRAELITES A.K.A. the remnant would be saved and survive the end.

That's my take as an intelligent human being.

So then, why do you take the number literally?

Answer 1

The Bible uses numbers symbolizing specific qualities. For example: 6 marks imperfections in things associated with humans. 7 & 10 are associated with heavenly and earthly perfection.



Here 3 or 3 times denotes special emphasis. As in a number being literal. Once in Rev. 7 and twice in Rev. 14, the specific number, 144,000 is used. Additionally, at Rev. 7:8, that same number is shown another way by 12,000 out of 12 different tribes of spiritual Israel. No, not literal old Israel from the original 12 tribes. We see this by 4 tribes being different. There were no tribes of Levi nor of Joseph in the original 12 as Revelation 7 has.



Then Rev. 7:9 shows a different group entirely. Although both belong to Jehovah God's organization, they have different locations and destinations. These 144,000 go to heaven to rule with Jesus. While that "great crowd that no one is able to number" or open ended numbers, remain on earth, ruled by Jesus and the 144,000.



John 10 16 makes this clear by the chapter talking about those going to heaven as "a little flock" but 16 referring to a larger other flock of sheep. Both coming together to be one great flock under ShePherd, Jesus Christ.

Answer 2

Interestingly, they take the number 144,000 as literal, but then the next part of the SAME PARAGRAPH is taken figuratively. Namely that they would all be male and be virgins.



This is the type of piecemeal interpretation they have. Where the bible agrees with what their humans command, it is literal, where it doesn't it is figurative. Even one verse after another flops back and forth in a dizzying logic.



Witnesses gobble it all down though. They are spiritual babes, unable to handle the bible on their own and need to have "truth" spoon-fed to them from their Governing Body.

Answer 3

144,000, is understood literally for several reasons. One is found in the immediate context of Revelation 7:4.



After the apostle John was told in vision about this group of 144,000 individuals, he was shown another group. John describes this second group as “a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.”



This great crowd refers to those who will survive the coming “great tribulation,” which will destroy the present wicked world.



He states that the first group, “those who were sealed,” has a definite number. However, the second group, “a great crowd,” is without a definite number. With that in mind, it is logical to take the number 144,000 to be literal.



If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally.



Various Bible scholars, past and present, reached the same conclusion that is, the number is literal.



For instance, in commenting on Revelation 7:4, 9, British lexicographer Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger observed some 100 years ago: “It is the simple statement of fact: a definite number in contrast with the indefinite number in this very chapter.”



Robert L. Thomas, Jr., professor of New Testament at The Master’s Seminary in the United States, wrote: “The case for symbolism is exegetically weak.” He added: “It is a definite number in contrast with the indefinite number of 7:9. If it is taken symbolically, no number in the book can be taken literally.”



Some argue that since Revelation contains highly symbolic language, all numbers found in this book, including the number 144,000, must be symbolic.



That conclusion, though, is clearly not correct. Granted, Revelation contains numerous symbolic numbers, but it also includes literal numbers.



For instance, John speaks of “the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”



Clearly, the number 12 mentioned in this verse is literal, not symbolic. Further, the apostle John writes about “the thousand years” of Christ’s reign.



That number is also to be taken literally, as a careful consideration of the Bible shows. Hence, whether a number in Revelation is to be taken literally or symbolically depends on its background and setting.



The conclusion that the number 144,000 is literal and refers to a limited number of individuals, a relatively small group when compared with the “great crowd,” also harmonizes with other Bible passages.



For instance, later in the vision that the apostle John receives, the 144,000 are described as those who “were bought from among mankind as firstfruits.” (Revelation 14:1, 4)



The expression “firstfruits” refers to a small representative selection. Also, while Jesus was on earth, he spoke about those who will rule with him in his heavenly Kingdom and called them a “little flock.”



Hence, the context of Revelation 7:4 and related statements found elsewhere in the Bible bear out that the number 144,000 is to be taken literally.



It refers to those who will rule in heaven with Christ over a paradise earth, which will be filled with a large and undetermined number of happy people who worship Jehovah God. Psalm 37:29.

Answer 4

Revelation is a fascinated book of the bible...I have read it and made theories on it...dreamed about it wrote a book about it. Feared it as a child, embraced it as an adult.



The religion, like others, is based on mans interpretation of the bible...again just like all others. As an intelligent human, I believe in Following the guidelines set by Christ...kindness and love...not being judgemental, instead extend caring to those in need. Jesus helped people. That was his witness. God knows your heart, right? He knows who you are, warts and all. I am dealing with my own crisis of losing my religion, is God real or a myth. The bible has stories tied to mythology. So who has the true understanding of literal vs. Symbolic? I am not sure any man does.

Answer 5

As intelligent humans who were aware of the falseness of christendom, we JWs did a lot of studying, research and more research before deciding what was correct. We then took the step of dedicating ourselves to Jehovah privately and then publicly.



The Bible talks of Jesus' "little flock of chosen ones" - note the word "little" and "chosen". These chosen ones were to serve as kings and priests with Jesus in the kingdom government OVER the NATIONS. Now, if you have a government you have to have people to govern. Governments have a set number of persons doing the governing but those being governed do not.

Answer 6

The Jehovah Witnesses are in error of translation. It's not a literal number but a figurative number which in those days was not uncommon to use figurative numbers. The two groups the 144,000 or otherwise the great multitude are the risen saints whom risen shortly after our Lord's Resurrection the just souls like the prophets that lived before the advent of Christ and waited patiently for the coming of the Messiah in Abraham's Bosom (Limbo of the Fathers) whom were once dead but given life through Christ and were delivered into His Kingdom. The other group is the saints here on earth whom wait to enter into His Kingdom and as Christ promised them if they believe in Him (His teachings) they shall never die.



Christ went to preach His Gospel to the dead (just souls) that lived before Him after He died upon the cross and entered into Abraham's Bosom (Limbo of the Fathers) in which every spirit (soul) heard His Gospel throughout Sheol. As Christ risen on the third day He was given the keys to Sheol so that through Him others would have life. And He founded His Church here on earth which was established by the Apostles. The number 12 represents the 12 thrones of the Apostles and their successors. The number 24 represents the Apostles and their Priests the elders of His Church. The 12 tribes of Israel are not the Jews but rather the royal people of Christ whom are His people according to their deeds. There is no boundary with Christ in regards to religion, creed, race, cultures, etc., etc..... the people whom bear His fruit are His royal people. The 12 tribes which is 12,000 for each tribe represents the diversity of His Church whom are one royal people of Israel the 144,000. So from the time of Adam to when this world will end there will be more like billions or trillions of saints within the Kingdom of Heaven (New Jerusalem).



So the Kingdom of God is the Church Triumphant in the Kingdom of Heaven (New Jerusalem), the Church Militant here on earth in which Christ reigns in the seed of His Church in which He given the Apostles His authority under the keys of St. Peter to bind and let loose whom are guided by the Holy Spirit until His return to earth, and the suffering Church (Purgatory) or Gehenna being that He holds the keys to Sheol. Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend,

of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."



The Devil and some of the other fallen angels were imprisoned in Gehenna where they will remain during Christ's thousand years reign upon the earth being in chains. For when Christ risen He rose triumphant over the Devil. Again a thousand years is figurative it simply means a very long time or what it's also called is an "age". The Devil and some of the fallen angels after the thousand years reign of Christ here on earth whom had been imprisoned will be released upon the earth for a short time in which many will be deceived by him. As of now there are some fallen angels which have free roam of the heavens and earth.



So what us Catholics look forward too is the return of Christ here on earth and the resurrection of the dead but the righteous and unrighteous whom will be judged according to their deeds. The Devil and the fallen angels and the unrighteous souls of man will be cast into Gehenna where they will be in torment day and night forever their second death. For our Lord and the righteous they will have a new Paradise a world which will never perish in which the Kingdom of Heaven and the earth become one in relation to the Bride and Bridegroom as we are joined with our Lord in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Answer 7

Harpazo = Rapture



END-TIME BIBLE PROPHECY



The Messiah Lord Jesus said BIRTH PANGS would signal the time of the end (Matthew 24:8). There are NINE birth pangs, they are all PRE-TRIBULATIONAL and the 1st three already occurred.



The first birth pang was worldwide conflict coupled with famines and earthquakes (Matthew 24:7-8). Worldwide conflict was fulfilled in 1914-1918, major famines happened in 1918-1921 and most of the world’s major earthquakes began to occur since 1900.



The second birth pang was the restoration of a Jewish State (Ezekiel 20:33-38; Ezekiel 22:17-22; Ezekiel 36:22-24; Zephaniah 2:1-2). This was fulfilled in 1948.



The third birth pang was Jewish control of the Old City of Jerusalem (Revelation 11:1-2). For the third Jewish Temple (Tribulation Temple) to be rebuilt, Jerusalem needs to be under Jewish control and this was accomplished in the Six Day War in 1967.



The fourth birth pang will be the Ezekiel 38 war. Russia, allied states of Iran, Ethiopia, Somalia, Germany and Armenia will invade Israel. God will miraculously destroy the invading army by earthquake, civil war among the invading soldiers, pestilence, blood, flood, hailstones, fire and brimstone. This will bring a revival in Israel where many Jews will turn to the Lord, and Israel will spend 7 years and 7 months burying the bodies and burning for fuel the military equipment left behind (Ezekiel 39:9-16).



The 5th birth pang will be the development of a one world government (Daniel 7:23-24).



The 6th birth pang will be the splitting of the one world government into 10 kingdoms and this Ten Kingdom Stage will continue until mid-Tribulation (Daniel 7:24).



The 7th birth pang will be the revelation of the Antichrist (II Thessalonians 2:1-3; Daniel 7:24).



The 8th birth pang will be a period of peace and false security that will be shattered by the Tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3).



The 9th and final birth pang before the Tribulation is the signing of the 7-year covenant between Israel and the Antichrist. THIS EVENT IS WHAT BEGINS THE (7-year) TRIBULATION - NOT THE RAPTURE!



The Rapture of the Church (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) is also a pre-tribulational event (Luke 21:34-37; 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10; Revelation 3:10; Revelation 19:6-8). The fact that the Church is not mentioned in any of the Tribulation Scriptures proves the Rapture is pre-tribulational. All raptured Christians will receive glorified bodies (Romans 8:22-23; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54)) and it can happen at any second.





THE FIRST HALF OF THE TRIBULATION (SUPPORTING VERSES IN REVELATION 6-9 AND 17)



The Ministry of 144,000 sealed Jewish believers will bring many throughout the world to accept Christ.



There will be a powerful Ministry of Two Witnesses who will also be anointed Jewish believers.



A one world religious system (Babylon the Harlot) will rule. Under this one world religious system, many who are saved during the Tribulation will suffer persecution and death.



The Political system of the 10 kings of the one world government will continue.



During the first half of the Tribulation there will also be war, worldwide famine, death (1/4 of the world’s population will die), a huge earthquake, a blackout and a meteor shower. 1/3 of earth’s dry surface will be destroyed, 1/3 sea life and salt water will be destroyed, a fallen angel called Wormwood will make 1/3 of earth’s fresh water bitter, 1/3 of earth’s natural light sources will be destroyed, there will be another blackout and demons in the form of “locust-scorpions” will come up out of the abyss led by Abaddon their king and they will inflict harm and pain for five months upon those who are not sealed by God (unbelievers). Another demonic invasion will occur and the demons involved will be led by four fallen angels who will be released from the Euphrates River and this army will kill 1/3 of the earth’s population.





MID-TRIBULATION (SUPPORTING VERSES IN REVELATION 10-14 AND 17)



The Antichrist will war against the 10 kings, and during the war the Antichrist will be killed.



Satan will be cast out of the atmospheric heavens onto earth and will resurrect the Antichrist.



The Antichrist will kill 3 kings (the kings of Syria, Egypt and Mesopotamia) and the 7 other kings will submit to him.



The Antichrist will kill the Two Witnesses in Jerusalem and the wicked people will celebrate this event. Three and a half days afterwards, God will resurrect the Two Witnesses and take them up to Heaven and the people who celebrated will become terrified. The city of Jerusalem where the murder of the Two Witnesses occurred will then suffer an earthquake which will kill 7,000 people.



The False Prophet will receive from Satan the power to perform great miracles and will deceive many. The False Prophet will command all people to worship the Antichrist and have persons create an image to the Antichrist. The False Prophet will use his satanic powers to give it life and the ability to speak. The False Prophet will cause those who refuse to worship the Antichrist and the image to be killed.



The False Prophet will issue his own counterfeit seal known as the Mark of the Beast and it will be placed on all those who surrender to the Antichrist’s authority and accept him as god. Those who refuse to take this mark will not be able to buy or sell. Those who take this mark will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.



The Antichrist will break the seven-year covenant he made with Israel, cause the sacrifices to stop, sit in the Jewish Temple, declare to the world that he is really God and set up an idol called the Abomination of Desolation in the Temple (Daniel 9:27; Daniel 12:11; Matthew 24:15-16; 11Thessalonians 2:3-4; Revelation 13:11-15).



Through the Antichrist and the False Prophet, Satan will attempt to destroy the Jews once and for all but he will fail because 1/3 of the Jews will succeed in fleeing into the wilderness. These Jews who escape will accept the Lord Jesus as their Saviour during the Tribulation (Zechariah 13:7-9) and while they are in hiding, God will miraculously provide for them (Zechariah 13:8-9; Isaiah 41:17-20). Divine intervention will also destroy the pursuing army.





THE SECOND HALF OF THE TRIBULATION (SUPPORTING VERSES FOUND IN REVELATION 15, 16, 18, 19, 20)



In the second half of the Tribulation, those with the Mark of the Beast will suffer skin sores, the remainder of sea water and fresh water will be destroyed, the sun will cause terrible burns and the wicked will blaspheme God. There will be yet another blackout and persons will suffer gnawing pains.



Babylon will be the center of world economy and political system but Babylon will be swiftly destroyed by fire and become uninhabitable for man.



The Antichrist will locate the Jews who sought refuge in the wilderness and surround them with his armies to wipe them out. The Lord Jesus will then descend from Heaven with His angels and Saints. He will come with great glory riding upon a horse and will destroy the Antichrist, the False Prophet and all of their armies. After this, a loud voice will cry out “It is done!” followed by the greatest earthquake in the earth’s history and hail weighing 120 pounds will fall.



At the end of the Tribulation, there will be another blackout, the stars will fall from the sky and the heavenly bodies will be shaken (Matthew 24:29), the Antichrist and the False Prophet will be thrown into the eternal Lake of Fire and Satan will be cast into the Abyss and bound for 1,000 years.





THE MILLENNIUM



The Lord Jesus will reign over the entire earth during the Millennium. The Jewish and Gentile believers who survive the Tribulation will go on to populate the Millennium. Believers who died before and during the Tribulation and believers who were raptured will be present on earth during the Millennium and because they will have glorified bodies they will not reproduce. All believers will be given special tasks by the Lord Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6). There will be no wars (Isaiah 2:2-4), animals will return to the Edenic state and become vegetarians (Isaiah 11:6-9), people will not labour in vain but eat what they plant and inhabit what they build, there will be renovations in the heavens and earth and there will be righteous and unrighteous children born during the Millennium (Isaiah 65:17-25).



At the end of the Millennium, Satan will be loosed from the Abyss and will deceive and gather the unrighteous for a war against the righteous. This will be his final attempt to destroy the righteous and when the unrighteous of the Millennium surround the good people, God will send fire down from Heaven which will suddenly and massively annihilate all of the wicked people. Satan will then be cast into the Lake of Fire where he will remain in torment for eternity (Revelation 20:7-10).





THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT



The Great White Throne Judgment will be the next main event. The old heavens and earth will be done away with and all will stand before God’s throne to be judged (Revelation 20:11-12). Those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire which will be their final and eternal abode (Revelation 20:14-15).





THE ETERNAL ORDER (REVELATION 21 AND 22)



Those whose names are found in the Book of Life will enjoy paradise with God forever. The heavens and earth will be made new and the New Jerusalem will come down upon the earth making the earth like Heaven. All curses from the fall will be removed and the earth will be inhabited by the Triune God (The Father, Son and Holy Spirit), all angels and all of the righteous. The seas, moon, night and sun will be done away with and the glory of God will illuminate the earth. The River of Life will flow from God’s throne, the Tree of Life will bear health-giving fruits and leaves and the name of Jesus will be on the foreheads of all of the righteous.





God’s Plan of Salvation for Us

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZkDk1GZ7do

Answer 8

Greetings,



I know of no scholar who can maintain a belief that literal and symbolic numbers cannot appear together.



Claiming that the number 144,000 cannot be a literal number because it appears in context with other numbers and terms which are symbolic is an unreasonable argument. If that were the case then everything in Revelation would have to be symbolic or everything literal. Yet, every one knows that Revelation contains both symbolic and literal terms. Sometimes they appear right next to each other. For example, John speaks of "the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb" (Rev.21:14). Clearly, the number 12 mentioned in this verse is literal, not symbolic, yet it is surrounded by obviously symbolic numbers and terms. Revelation mentions "the thousand years" of Christ's reign. Most recognize that number as a literal, but it is mentioned in context with many symbolic terms (Rev.20:3-7). Many Protestants understand the seven mountains to be literal (Rome) even though it appears in context with symbols. Does anyone believe a literal city comes down from Heaven and marries a literal lamb?!!



Hence, whether a number in Revelation is to be taken literally or symbolically depends on the scriptural context, the setting, and sometimes grammar.



Obviously, John was not referring to literal virginity, otherwise even Peter and other Apostles would not qualify to rule in heaven, and Jesus would have lied when he said they would rule with him (1Co 9:5; Mk 1:29-31; Mt 19:28; Lk 22:29-30; Jn.14:1-3).



While many feel that the number 144,000 is symbolic the contextual evidence is that it is a literal number.



First, it is contrasted with an unnumberable "great crowd." If it were not literal the number 144,000 would be senseless, it would mean nothing. It might as well have no number at all, for there would be no contrast between it and the "great crowd" which is numberless.



Robert L. Thomas Jr., professor of New Testament at The Master's Seminary wrote: "The case for symbolism is exegetically weak...It is a definite number in contrast with the indefinite number of 7:9. If it is taken symbolically, no number in the book can be taken literally."–Revelation: An Exegetical Commentary, Vol.1 pg 474.



Bible scholar E.W. Bullinger says of it: "It is the simple statement of fact: a definite number in contrast with the indefinite number in this very chapter." (The Apocalypse or "The Day of the Lord" pg 282)



The 144,000 are also described as "firstfruits" (Rev.14:1, 4) The expression "firstfruits" refers to a small representative selection so it cannot be referring to ALL those who gain salvation.



A literal and limited number also fits Christ's other statements such as Luke 12:32 where Jesus calls his disciples a "little flock" that will obtain the Kingdom. In John 10:1-5 Jesus discussed the same ones but then mentions "other sheep" not in the first "fold" (Jn.10:16) and they would both would be united as "one flock" following him (Christians). The picture here is a "little flock" compared to "other sheep."



So there are logical reasons to conclude that the number 144,000 cannot be a symbol of a large indeterminate number but must be literal.



Next, the 12 tribe of Rev. 7:4-8 cannot be natural Jews. The list in Revelation diverges from the usual tribal listing found at Num. 1:4-17, 47. There never was a tribe of Joseph, the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in Revelation and the Levites were not reckoned as one of the 12 tribes.



John had explicitly stated that those who were to rule as kings and priests over the earth would be from "every tribe and tongue and people and nation" (Re 5:9-10). Interpreting Rev.7:4 to mean literal Israel would cause John to contradict himself.



The "12 tribes" here must refer to the spiritual "Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16; 1Pt. 2:9; Mt.3:9). Gal. 3:26-29 says: "There is neither Jew nor Greek...if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed."



Jesus said: "The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits (Mt.21:42-43). Replacing natural Israel as God's nation, it becomes a new "Israel" that is "really 'Israel'" (Rm.2:28-29; 9:6-9).



John's vision of those standing on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb revealed the number of this spiritual Israel of God to be 144,000 "bought from among mankind" not "from among the Jews (Rev. 7:4; 14:1, 4; 5:9,10; James 1:1).



>>>>>>>



Next, it must be noted that whether you view this number as symbolic or literal is largely irrelevant–it still is a small group contrasted with a large one.



A more important issue is that because of their belief that all good people go to heaven most religions of Christendom ignore the facts presented in the Bible that there are two destinies for righteous humans. A small, numbered group and a large numberless group, both who believe in Christ and gain salvation. They fail to teach their followers about the explicit statements in the Bible that God's stated purpose is for righteous ones to live for "eternity on earth" (Mt.5:5; 6:10; Ps.37,9,10,29; Isa. 66:19-24; 24:1-6; Rev.21:3,4) .



Yours,



BAR-ANERGES

Answer 9

that is a very fine question,, and an even better answer,. you sir should seek out JW's and study with them

Answer 10

In a long and round-a-bout way, Bill answered your question.

BILL: shorten it up.