Question:
Creationists: You claim that the Big Bang violates the first law of thermodynamics, but...?
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Creationists: You claim that the Big Bang violates the first law of thermodynamics, but...?
35 answers:
punch
2009-04-27 17:35:27 UTC
9. The Second Law of Thermodynamics says that systems must become more disordered over time. Living cells therefore could not have evolved from inanimate chemicals, and multicellular life could not have evolved from protozoa.



This argument derives from a misunderstanding of the Second Law. If it were valid, mineral crystals and snowflakes would also be impossible, because they, too, are complex structures that form spontaneously from disordered parts.



The Second Law actually states that the total entropy of a closed system (one that no energy or matter leaves or enters) cannot decrease. Entropy is a physical concept often casually described as disorder, but it differs significantly from the conversational use of the word.



More important, however, the Second Law permits parts of a system to decrease in entropy as long as other parts experience an offsetting increase. Thus, our planet as a whole can grow more complex because the sun pours heat and light onto it, and the greater entropy associated with the sun's nuclear fusion more than rebalances the scales. Simple organisms can fuel their rise toward complexity by consuming other forms of life and nonliving materials.
2009-04-27 17:36:50 UTC
I always find that hilarious. Creationsist LOVE citing the second law of thermodynamics, yet don't even know what it is.



Funniest conversation I ever had with my religious colleague at work:



HER: "You realise evolution can't possibly happen, and neither could the Big Bang, because they both violate the Second law of Thermodynamics"



ME: "Christine, what's the Second Law of Thermodynamics?"



HER: "Oh, its the law that states that something cannot come from nothing"



ME: "Ahem. No it doesn't. What does the word 'thermodynamics' mean?"



HER: "Um...I don't know. Something to do with energy"



ME: "You Fail"
2009-04-27 17:34:50 UTC
Creationism makes no sense, period, end of story.





Jesus, as a Jew, would never have taken Genesis literally.







"Debating Creationists on the topic of Evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory." - Scott D. Weitzenhoffer
2009-04-27 17:34:41 UTC
Creationist don't comprehend science talk.
2009-04-27 17:39:44 UTC
I accept the Big Bang theory, but let me point out a small mistake in your 2nd paragraph. How could energy have been added to the system (in this case, the Big Bang itself) when the Big Bang, as you pointed out, contains everything? It's all part of the system. I think that somehow the system must have become unstable in some way and this caused the event to occur...but in this case, energy is only being converted, not added.
2009-04-27 17:34:15 UTC
dont try and bring things like "facts" and "logic" to this argument it has no place
2009-04-27 17:46:01 UTC
My friend, I think that law only appplies to chemical reactions...
Martin S
2009-04-27 17:43:56 UTC
The "Big Bang" merely pushes the problem of creation back in time. The idea that a "singularity" of unknown origin that was perhaps smaller than a pin head contained all of the matter in this universe and was spinning around until it finally blew apart is the stuff of fantasy.



The laws of physics prove that could not have happened.



1. The force of dispersion of gases is 60 times greater than the gravitational attraction of gas molecules. Release some gas in space and it immediately disperses. It doesn't clump together. Light some incense in a room and it disperses. In the "vacuum" of space hydrogen molecules are dispersed evenly. They don't clump together and form stars.



2. The conservation of angular momentum tells us that if everything blew away from a spinning starting point then everything should still have that same angular motion. In our own solar system you have bodies rotating in the opposite directions from other bodies. As some scientists have admitted, it would be easier to explain the lack of galaxies and star systems by the laws of physics than it is to explain how they came about.



3. Since the first law of thermodynamics cannot be violated according to the observed laws of this universe, nothing should exist at all. That is, nothing should exist unless you postulate some "entity" that is not subject to the laws of this universe who is responsible for it coming into existence.



That would be the God of the Bible who is not subject to the laws of His creation because He has always been while the universe only came into being when He made it.
Scourgio Valenciazione
2009-04-27 17:39:00 UTC
Do you really think you came from an ape?
2009-04-27 17:35:22 UTC
Well, God can do anything that does not contradict his existence... remember that? He's omnipotent.

@Gorgeoustxwoman ~P3D~-In John 5:45–47, Jesus says, “Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” So Jesus did believe in the Genesis account.
going postal
2009-04-27 17:37:20 UTC
I don't think anyone is saying that the Big Bang violates the first law, only the fact that the matter had to come from somewhere. If not from God, then where did it come from? In reality our existence violates the first law, because if matter cannot be created then really nothing should exist.
Percy F
2009-04-27 17:52:08 UTC
You are wrong. MATTER CAN BE CREATED.



It happens all the time.

It's called the Zero Point Fluctuation.



The specific energy of a random point in space cannot be known, so it cannot be zero. ( If it were zero then it would be known )

As a consequence, matter and anti-matter pairs are coalescing out of "empty" space all the time. Usually, these particles annihilate each other and the process repeats. The overall effect is that any arbitrary area of space has ZERO NET energy.



The universe is just the same. This process of particles coming into existence occurred, but the process, due to random variation, did not reverse. Inflation occurred as the result of a phase shift and the universe and the space it inhabits expanded rapidly from, essentially, nothing.



Now here's the Free Lunch.



The whole area encompassing our universe contains ZERO NET energy. As such, it violates NO KNOWN LAWS.



[edit] MARTIN S:

Firstly, there was NO SINGULARITY. The Big Bang was an explosion of space as well as matter.

1) The force of dispersion maybe 50 times greater than G. But the EM Force is trillions of times greater, however, put a large enough mass together and the cumulative effect of gravity can overcome any other force. Gravity is a one-way street, it ONLY attracts.

2) Have you considered collisions?

3) The Laws of Thermodynamics don't apply here as I've explained.

4) Explain how you know that God is not subject to the laws of physics. Can you provide some substance to examine?



[edit] Craig B: When Stephen Hawking mentions the "Mind of God", he is speaking peotically. He doesn't have a belief in a personal god, but in a concept of harmony of the laws of physics revealed in the language of mathematics.

Stephen Hawking made the claim, in "A Brief History of Time", that if his "no-boundary cosmology" was correct then there would be no need for a creator.
Servant
2009-04-27 17:43:16 UTC
The Big Bang theory says something like all the matter in the universe started from basically nothing (or that it was in a very small space - like the size of a pin head) which then exploded. This sounds like the creation of incredibly huge amounts of mass.



Yes, the creation theory would completely violate the first law of thermodynamics. However, this law applies to the physical realm. What if their is a spiritual god that has control over the physical realm and isn't bound by the laws of physics? What if such god even created the first law of thermodynamics?
2016-04-06 03:16:34 UTC
Creationists are a dim-witted lot. Any time one of them takes off on the Second Law of Thermodynamics and wait until they slow down. Then ask if planet earth is a closed energy system. If they say it is (They have to in order to make their point) just direct their attention to sunlight.
?
2009-04-27 17:58:45 UTC
I was privileged to hear a lecture by a nuclear physicist who is proficient in the Hebrew language since he is a Jew. He showed us the compatibility between the Big Bang and the account in Genesis. Taking into account what Einstien taught us about relativity, the science of light including a discussion of light waves, and other related physics, he showed us that the 6 "day" account of creation would suggest that the earth is approximately 15.75 billion years old and that science and Genesis have no quarrels. He also included a discussion of fossil records and how the dating places them in the corresponding "day" of creation.
Frizby
2009-04-27 17:46:23 UTC
If scientists always ask creationists where does God come from?..



Then tell me where does the energy come from in the first place and where does the heat come from to first warm up the energy?..



If you say God cannot be the first cause or exist because of?..



Then how can energy be the first cause or exist because of?..
2009-04-27 21:12:10 UTC
Creationists, you are wrong. There is too much evidence for the big bang.
2009-04-27 17:37:40 UTC
You have a good point. Wish Genesis would be more detailed and such. Then this would be a simple thing to ponder about.
KarmaKing
2009-04-27 17:38:10 UTC
Creationists: You claim that the Big Bang violates the first law of thermodynamics, but...?



Try the second law.
EX-Murderess
2009-04-27 17:36:46 UTC
Wrong about the Big Bang. I am embarrassed for you.



http://www.metaresearch.org/cosmology/BB-top-30.asp

The Top 30 Problems with the Big Bang
craig b
2009-04-27 17:38:51 UTC
Actually, it's the 2nd law..........

but, since you bring up the BB.....perhaps you need to read a little from Steven Hawking when asked about the BB........

he said that the only way the BB could occur is from an outside source which must be God.



When you reach the level of Hawking - let's talk.
tom bailey
2009-04-27 17:36:33 UTC
Creationists believe that God is capable of things that violate all rules. I believe God is capable of the supernatural.
mr.indecisive09
2009-04-27 17:39:05 UTC
God spoke the universe into existence, so I really don't have a problem with the big bang theory.

God said "BANG" and there it was!
2009-04-27 17:36:13 UTC
The universe tends toward randomness. But evolution BYPASSES it.

If you have slow rabbits they will evolve to become faster... What is wrong with that? You can't just say "It violates the second law" because it is DEMONSTRATABLE.
Matt
2009-04-27 17:40:42 UTC
No I say nothing can't explode to become something without a supernatural cause.
The Observer
2009-04-27 17:34:35 UTC
The law applies to this universe. Since we believe that this universe had a beginning, that law would not exist until God had put it in place.
Tommiecat
2009-04-27 17:35:37 UTC
The Big Bang is impossible because at a singularity there are no laws of physics. Therefore the universe had to be commanded by somebody.

God!
Tiedye D
2009-04-27 17:41:01 UTC
You are correct.
2009-04-27 17:35:46 UTC
it doesn't matter. You are not either an atheist or a Christian because of this issue.



Christ is a personal relationship
HAMMER
2009-04-27 17:35:14 UTC
The "theory" violates the Truth of Creation by the Creator and His Son Jesus Christ.

It even violates common sense.
2009-04-27 17:36:20 UTC
Our God is not bound by scientific law. He created them. They are at His command.
BeautifulFeet
2009-04-27 17:45:40 UTC
AND GOD SAID LET THERE BE LIGHT



BANG
Karl P
2009-04-27 17:38:31 UTC
www.icr.org
RickJaymz
2009-04-27 17:34:59 UTC
Why argue?



You are not ready to hear the Truth! No matter what evidence we bring you, you will deny it.
2009-04-27 17:34:14 UTC
Actually we claim your understanding of the universe violates the second law.



If the universe tends towards entropy, how the the order and complexity of life arise?

------------

Amidst the currently raging controversy centering on creation and evolution as the only two possible explanations for the Universe and all life in that Universe, a bitter battle is being waged in regard to the meaning and significance of two of the most fundamental laws known to science—the first and second laws of thermodynamics. For years creationists have presented (in articles, books, lectures, and debates) evidences against the General Theory of Evolution based on those two laws. During much of that time evolutionists, with rare exceptions, simply ignored creationists’ arguments. In the few instances where evolutionists bothered to acknowledge the arguments based on thermodynamics, they generally did so only in cursory fashion, most often by simply dismissing creationists’ arguments as efforts by those who were “uninformed” or “misguided.”



But all of that has changed—as is evident from Mr. Rennie’s comments. Evolutionists have heard the “call to battle,” and are answering that call. Now both creationists and evolutionists are actively engaged in the most serious kinds of efforts to portray to the general public the relationship that exists between the laws of thermodynamics and their respective origin models. And for good reason. The stakes involved are enormous! If creationists are correct in their statements of the laws of thermodynamics, and in their assessments and interpretations based on those laws, evolution is immediately and automatically ruled out by what those in the scientific community readily acknowledge as “the most secure generalizations known to science”—the laws of thermodynamics. Whereas in the past, evolutionists frequently ignored arguments based on the laws of thermodynamics, now those same evolutionists are reacting with a feverish pitch to creationists’ presentations based on those laws. For that reason, and because of the tremendous importance that the laws of thermodynamics do have to the creation/evolution issue, we believe that an examination of these matters is warranted.



Our English word “thermodynamics” derives from two Greek words, therme, meaning “heat,” and dynamis, meaning “power.” Thus thermodynamics is the study of heat power. Historically, the subject of thermodynamics arose from the study of heat engines. Currently, the subject of thermodynamics is much broader in scope, and involves the movement of energy and the conversion of one form of energy into another. Thermodynamics, as a field of study, is important for several reasons, not the least of which is that it acts as a “unifying” factor for all of the exact sciences, since energy is required for all natural processes (see Crawford, 1963, p. 1). It is this very fact—that all natural processes require energy—that makes thermodynamics of special interest in the creation/evolution controversy. Consider, for example, Sir Julian Huxley’s now-famous definition of evolution:



Evolution in the extended sense can be defined as a directional and essentially irreversible process occurring in time, which in its course gives rise to an increase of variety and an increasingly high level of organization in its products. Our present knowledge indeed forces us to the view that the whole of reality is evolution—a single process of self-transformation (1955, p. 278).



Sidney Fox, who pioneered much of the work regarding the “origin of life” in evolutionary scenarios, has noted that “evolution, however, has put together the smallest components; it has proceeded from the simple to the complex” (1971, 49[50]:46).



Obviously evolution involves “transformation” or “putting together.” And, such natural transformations or “putting together” processes require energy. In fact, a process of evolution (like the one suggested by Huxley and Fox) would require tremendous quantities of energy, and many energy transformations from one form to another. Simply stated, then, our point is this: the process of evolution requires energy in various forms, and thermodynamics is the study of energy movement and transformation. Thus, the two fields bear a clear relationship. Scientific laws that govern thermodynamics also must govern evolution. Creationists and evolutionists alike generally acknowledge this fact. Creationist writers are quick to express agreement on this point (see Williams, 1981, p. 10). Most evolutionists agree that, in principle, thermodynamics does have a relationship to evolution, but some are quick to claim that this relationship may not be quite as distinct as creationists suggest. Willard Young stated: “In fact, thermodynamics is involved in every process of energy transformation. For this reason even biology is governed, in part, by the fundamental principles of thermodynamics, though not in the manner the Creationists would have us believe” (1985, p. 164).



The point, then, is clear. The laws of thermodynamics do regulate all energy-related processes. Evolution (even biological evolution) is dependent upon such energy-related processes. Thus, the laws of thermodynamics must regulate evolution. The question that obviously arises is two-fold: (1) what do the laws of thermodynamics say; and (2) what regulatory processes or restrictions are imposed on evolution as a result of the laws of thermodynamics?



Robert Mayer (1814-1878) was the first scientist to suggest the general principle that ultimately would become the first law of thermodynamics. Mayer observed: “I therefore hope that I may reckon on the reader’s assent when I lay down as an axiomatic truth that, just as in the case of matter, so also in the case of force [the then-current term for energy—BT/BH], only a transformation but never a creation takes place” (as quoted in King, 1962, p. 5). Today we often refer to the first law as the “law of conservation of energy (and/or mass).” Put into simple terms, the first law says that, naturally speaking, neither energy nor matter can be created or destroyed, but can only be converted from one form to another. The total amount of energy in the Universe remains constant. Scientists freely admit that, as Young put it, “the principle of the conservation of energy is considered to be the single most important and fundamental ‘law of nature’ known to science, and is one of the most firmly established. Endless studies and experiments have confirmed its validity over and over again under a multitude of different conditions” (1985, p. 165).



Although the first law of thermodynamics has serious implications for any evolution-based scenario, since Mr. Rennie mentioned in his article in Scientific American only the second law, we will restrict our comments here to that law. [For an in-depth discussion of the implications of the laws of thermodynamics in the creation/evolution controversy, see Thompson and Major, 1988.]



As men began to work with heat engines in the nineteenth century, the second law of thermodynamics came to be formulated. In 1824, Sadi Carnot (1796-1832), a French physicist, correctly noted that every heat engine requires a hot body (or source of heat) and a cold body (or sink), and that as the engine operates, heat passes from the hot body to the cold body. In such an engine, only a portion of the heat from the source can be utilized to perform useful work. The remainder is wasted. As a result of Carnot’s discovery, two scientists of his generation independently stated what came to be known as the second law of thermodynamics. German scientist Rudolph Clausius (1822-1888), and Irish scientist Lord Kelvin (William Thomson, 1824-1907), introduced concepts in 1850 and 1851, respectively, which ultimately became known as the second law. In 1852, Kelvin published a paper in which he delineated what was to become one of the most secure generalizations in all of science. In his treatise titled “On a Universal Tendency in Nature to the Dissipation of Mechanical Energy,” he set forth three propositions in which he summarized the concept that although energy is conserved (the first law), it is becoming less and less available for use (the second law). Energy is, to use Kelvin’s own words, “irrevocably lost to man and therefore ‘wasted,’ though not annihilated” (as quoted in Thompson, 1910, pp. 288-291). Clausius enunciated another form of the second law in 1854 when he stated that “heat cannot of itself, without the intervention of any external agency, pass from a colder to a hotter body” (as quoted in Glasstone, 1946, p. 217). Clausius also defined a quantity known as entropy—the energy per degree of absolute temperature that cannot be recovered as work. He thus was able to give succinct definitions of the first and second laws of thermodynamics in this form: according to the first law, the total amount of energy in nature is constant; according to the second law, the total amount of entropy in nature is increasing. Entropy (from two Greek terms meaning “to turn in on oneself ”) thus came to represent a measure of the lost usefulness (i.e., randomness, disorderliness) of the system.



Basically the second law says three things: (a) systems will tend toward the most probable state; (b) systems will tend toward the most random state; and (c) systems will increase in entropy, where entropy is a measure of the unavailability of energy to do useful work (see Wysong, 1976, p. 241). In “open” systems, energy may be lost to or gained from outside sources (i.e., the system is not self-contained). In “closed” systems, no outside energy or other “interference” is allowed (i.e., the system is self-contained).



Sir Arthur Eddington, the eminent British astronomer of the past generation, referred to the second la


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