ATHEISTS: How do you defend your beliefs with THIS evidence staring you in the face...?

Question

The fact that every one of Jesus’ disciples was willing to suffer and die for his beliefs shows that the most likely explanation is that these beliefs were true.

In your answer, you must not say any of the following:

"The disciples had faith" - how do you explain all of those mircales that they claimed to have seen? You really think Jesus could have staged his walking on water? Ockam's razor says the simplest explanation is usually the most accurate.

"The disciples wanted to control the masses" - the disciples were not like Mohammad. We know Mohammad invented Islam so that he could get followers to help him rob Caravans. The disciples were humble, going for days without food and devoting their lives to preaching, EVEN WHEN THREATENED WITH DEATH.

"The disciples were crazy" - you expect me to believe that the disciples were mad? That ALL of them were just nuts?


These men spent the rest of their lives witnessing about Christ. They frequently went without food; they were mocked, beaten, and thrown into prison. In the end, all but one died a painful martyr’s death. Would they have done this for a lie? They did it because they were convinced beyond a doubt that they had seen the risen Christ.

Don't forget Ockam's razor.

Answer 1

Well, many muslims are willing to blow themselves up for their beliefs, so Islam must be true too, right?

Answer 2

Islamic terrorists are willing to die for their beliefs. Does that make them true?

I have a simpler explanation for Occam's Razor. The disciples never witnessed miracles. They had merely been added to the oral traditions before they were actually written down. Exaggeration is the mother of all myth. This is evidenced by the fact that not all of the Gospels mention the same miracles. Such exaggerations were, likely, not the doing or will of the disciples themselves, but the result of revision through repetition. The Gospel's weren't actually written down until years after the disciples were dead. There's no real evidence that Jesus thought himself to be the son of God. It could be that he never said that, and the disciples, based on the wisdom of his philosophies, assumed it. Also, he may have said it, knowing that it would be a boon to his credibility. This doesn't necessarily have to be a malicious attempt to gain power. It could be the only way he could think of to get people to listen to his, for the most part, very wise philosophies.

Answer 3

"The fact that every one of Jesus’ disciples was willing to suffer and die for his beliefs shows that the most likely explanation is that these beliefs were true."



Wow. What flawed reasoning.



By the same token, people die for Islam, therefore Islam must be real. People died for Heaven's Gate, therefore Heaven's Gate must be real. People died for David Koresh, therefore the Branch Davidians must be true.



You go on about missionaries who who supposedly went without food and were mocked, etc. Think of how many different people of many different belief systems have gone through the same thing. Does this prove what they believed? If what others believed contracts that of the Christian missionaries, are they both true?



Don't forget, Special Pleading.

Answer 4

The disciples believed that Jesus was the truth, but that doesn't mean that he was. From the prophecy and superstitions that had been passed down in their culture Jesus fit the bill for what they believed a messiah would be. But that still doesn't mean that there was any truth to him being the son of God, it has nothing to do with truth and everything to do with perception. An example of perception seeming true but still being false is this: those same people who believed in Jesus also believed the sun moved around the Earth because from where they were standing on the earth it seemed as if the sun moved around them and the Earth stayed still. We now know that it is the exact opposite. And similarly, from where those disciples were standing a magical, necromantic, immaculately conceived, prophesy foretold star baby seemed feasible, but from what we know now that story is ridiculous.

Answer 5

Okay, let's deal with the biggest mistake, they didn't write the bible, not one of the disciplines actually wrote a single book of the bible. The bible was written many years after even they died. So essentially the bible is a collection of stories from a guy who knows a guy, who saw a guy, who meet a guy, who once was roommates with a guy who heard of guy who turned water into wine. And given that, it can not be considered evidence. But also, just because some believes something doesn't make it true. The disciples might have really, really believed in Jesus, but that doesn't actually make it true. Alot of people once believed Michael Bolton was the greatest singer in the world

Answer 6

The fact of martyrdom does not prove truth for martyrdom is common for many beliefs. Though the martyrdom of the early Christians is good reason to strengthen belief in Christ and the truth it is not considered evidence for belief. When I was an Atheist I considered martyrdom of followers to be just foolish people dying for a cause they believed in. It is the Bible and evidence for the Bible that really helped strengthen my belief more than anything else but since most Atheists do not consider the Bible as the truth. What really got me was the preaching of the word from believers in the word those who actually showed in their life that they believed the Bible. That and the changed lives I saw. When you witness racists who have gone to prison for violence actually embrace and care about people of other races or alcoholics and drug addicts who would do anything for their drug or drinking ignoring anything of family change to people who were sober and caring for those whom they had previously hurt or ignored. Only Jesus changes lives so dramatically and it is not fake it is not worked at it is real caring and loving of others that previously were hated. That is evidence that can not be denied. But when I would see so-called Christians just begging for money when they had more than enough or protesting against divorce when they were divorced or saying sexual sins were wrong yet they were participating in those same sins That is what turns people off on Christianity.

Answer 7

First off, there is no evidence they suffered any of those fates: The notion that they were persecuted so badly is more based in legend than fact.



Second: Nothing that was written about Jesus's supposed miracles was written by a single eyewitness. The earliest books of the NT were written no earlier than fifty years after his supposed death. Well outside of the lifetimes of the people of the time period.



You are believing faerie tales.

Answer 8

"Ockam's razor says the simplest explanation is usually the most accurate." So the sun is actually a big flash light? The moon is made of cheese? TV actually has little people inside of it? Snakes have no bones?



Using the bible as evidence does not make a valid argument.

Answer 9

So? Other religions have martyrs for their belief. Scientists have been persecuted and punished for not knuckling under to religous and governmental authority. How many Germans died in WWII trying to further the wishes and dogma of their Fuhrer?



Proves nothing except people will suffer and die for a belief or principle, regardless of the truth of the belief or principle.

Answer 10

I think the Roman authorities were convinced that Jesus and his followers were planning a revolt against them. That's what the Messiah was supposed to do, after all. The Jews did revolt later, in 70 AD. The Romans would kill anyone they thought was a threat to their power.



No, I don't think he staged the "walking on water" incident. I think it's complete fiction.

Answer 11

That means that the Japanese Emperor must be a god, as so many Japanese were willing to die for his divineness during WW II. Except that would contradict the Christian claims of one god only...



Alternatively, all sorts of people in history have sacrificed their lives for beliefs that aren't actually based on reality.



So which martyrs got it right, if any, and how do you know? Saying as martyrdom itself is not actual proof of anything.

Answer 12

"The fact that every one of Jesus’ disciples was willing to suffer and die for his beliefs shows that the most likely explanation is that these beliefs were true."

The same can be said of Jim Jones, Professor.

...staring YOU right in the face.

Answer 13

Every religion has people like that. It attracts them and is dependent on them to sustain itself.



What about all the pagans the christians killed for not converting? They were willing to suffer and die for their beliefs so that must mean that Freya and Cernunnus and such are real by your logic. People with crazy beliefs are going to do crazy things.

Answer 14

so the most simple explanation is the one without a single bit of evidence as opposed to the one that may have wholes, but does actually have evidence?



strong disciples of every religion are willing to die for their religion, does that mean they are all wrong?

Answer 15

1.You can't validate the Bible with the Bible.



2. People have died for other religions also. In fact, the other night I was watching a documentary where an entire cult of 31 members committed mass suicide as part of their doctrine. Does this make themir religion automatically true? It does, according to your line of thinking.

Answer 16

Then again, you have no evidence of the apostles ever existing, that jesus walked on water or anything alike. and for every religion there are people willing and actually dying for it, are you saying all of them are true? People can be misled and still do those things.

Ockam's razor suggests that god doesn't exist, and evidence refutes the bible as the word of god.

Answer 17

Have you noticed that, in the Bible, Jesus never argues with atheists? Do you not know that it is GOD who blinds people? (Isaiah 6:10, John 12:40) Why do you wrestle with God?



With due respect, it is more fruitful to focus on building your own faith, than questioning the lack of faith in others.

Answer 18

nicely, while a Christian's ideals incorporate human beings being tortured for eternity for no longer conserving the comparable religious place (hell), I do get irked. i'm further bugged while Muslims help the execution of people who've switched over out of Islam, as though it have been a factor of the Koran and a trifling "protection" of their theory device. Why ought to I be tolerant of intolerance? i'm all in desire of stay and permit stay, and unfastened debate. In my journey, all of us is a lot lots greater probable to experience that a guy or woman is being rude or confrontational in the event that they stand in public and say "there is not any god" than in case you're saying "there's a god," regardless of utilising the comparable language. i comprehend there's a brilliant style of trolling on the boards by potential of the two atheists and Christians. I even have snapped at others additionally. If Christians are experiencing "intense" grievance it would desire to be regarding the share of non-believers or non-Christians on Yahoo's boards - Christians have not going had their faith criticized in public, the place atheists are actually not enormous on communities or super in style. As for theory in technology - would not all of us while they place self belief in technologies of their on a daily basis lives? are not the reward of discovering nicely-examined? And why do maximum of human beings assume that atheism is by some potential the worship of technology, it incredibly is only about discovering? Do you experience ashamed to earnings with out biases, or that quantitative information is incompatible with theory in deities? I see too lots denial of common information from human beings of religion - as though the human recommendations has to denigrate itself to be a factor of the religion, make itself numb to outdoors queries. clever layout case in point would not make religious human beings look very straightforward or involved in inquiry, only able to deceptive one yet another.

Answer 19

I don't even know that this:

"...every one of Jesus’ disciples was willing to suffer and die for his beliefs..."

is true. That renders the whole rest moot.

Answer 20

You're quoting from a work of fiction with nothing external to support it as fact.



We could do the same with the Odyssey.

Answer 21

Jim Jones disciples died too - was he a Messiah?

Answer 22

Wow, that sounds like a fun life. Gosh, I want to be beaten a starved because Jesus loves me.

Answer 23

We don't have a belief, we have a LACK of belief.



Evidence is not necessary, to lack belief, but lack of evidence can weaken belief.



You don't have evidence, you have unsupported stories, so there is no logical reason to believe.

Answer 24

The muslims are willing to die for their beliefs too, using your logic then their belief system must be true too.

you got nothing. try again.

Answer 25

dude how do know that's true because the magic book says so lol by that logic why dont you believe in Zeus or Thor or Goku

Answer 26

Blah, blah, blah...NO SALE! I'm just not gonna buy a car off your lot. I'm going up the street to the Maserati dealership.

Answer 27

Explain the mass suicide of Jews at Masada. All that is evidence of is how irrational and stupid humans can be.

Answer 28

Atheists need to educate themselves more on science and realise that there must be a creator, this site may help:



http://www.freeislamicbooks.webs.com/

Answer 29

Do you believe everything you read? Take what you need and leave the rest.

Answer 30

Hollow "evidence" supported by even more hollow "evidence" is a recipe for FAIL.

Answer 31

12 men can be crazy. look at asylums there are more than 12 crazies there

Answer 32

Occam's razor nulls everything you said before that point.

Answer 33

So that means that the muslim suicide bombers are right too. Good to know what the criteria for accuracy is.

Answer 34

People strap bombs to themselves in the name of their religion.



How does any of this equate to 'evidence' when today we'd call it 'delusion'

Answer 35

Trust a Christian to tell you what you can and can't say about the bible and its contents.



*Rolls eyes*



Pooky

Answer 36

i am not an atheist but my best friend is and he would say that these people were not real or that they were phycopaths and crazy

Answer 37

*yawns*



Every religion has its martyrs.



They can't all be right.



Therefore, martyrs cannot be evidence for a religion.

Answer 38

You're taking your "evidence" from the Bible, which means it's not evidence.

Answer 39

You got nothing.