Mormons how do you explain how experts of egyptology say that the translated book of abraham is wrong?

Question

"It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations" Dr. A.H. Sayce, Oxford professor of Egyptology,

Answer 1

By stating that what they have is the Book of Breathing. Experts have stated that the condition of the papyri show that they were wrapped around much larger pieces of papyri, which we don't have now. Those larger pieces was what Joseph Smith translated into the Book of Abraham. The papyri was two rolls which extended over 20 feet with fine writing in red on the edges of the papyri. We don't have those, what we do have are those Book of the Dead pieces. What I find interesting is there are two books of Abraham that have been written by non-LDS authors, they read much the same as the LDS Book of Abraham, but nothing has been said about them.

Answer 2

As much as the critics protest the truth, the fact is that we have some of the Egyptian documents that Joseph Smith owned, but only a small part of the collection. The critics assume that what they have is the original writings we claim to be from Abraham, but there is no evidence for that. It is like saying the gospel of John is not translated correctly because not one single word is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Answer 3

Easy. People have misled them into believing that the surviving texts are the ones that were used for the translation. Not so. According to even hostile eyewitness testimony, the scroll that was used for The Book of Abraham was over 20 feet long when unrolled.



You'll really have to do much better than that, pard. Some people like facts.

Answer 4

Actually several egyptologists believe the Book of Abraham was translated correctly. Opinion is all over the map. Joseph Smith made some mistakes, but also made some bulls-eyes.



No where in the Bible does it state that Abraham taught astronomy to Pharaoh. Yet several texts have turned up which state that Abraham taught astronomy to Pharaoh. Where did Joseph Smith get this from, if not revelation from God?



The idea that Abraham was also saved from human sacrifice by an angel is not in the Bible. Yet, other Abraham texts have appeared which also state that the Egyptians tried to sacrifice him. This is more than just coincidence. Joseph Smith was right again.



The vision that Abraham had of the cosmos is not in the Bible. It is, however, in the Apocalypse of Abraham, a book unavailable to Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith got it right again.



The idea that Abraham sees the premortal spirits of men in not in the Bible. This is a distinctly Mormon doctrine. Yet it too can be found in the Apocalypse of Abraham. Bulls-eye.



It turns out that the Egyptians did practice human sacrifice, specifically in the case where someone challenges their religion. Bulls-eye. Abraham was preaching against their gods.



According to the Book of Abraham, Abraham's father made idols. This is also specified in the Tanna Debe Eliyahu, a midrashic Hebrew text. Bulls-Eye.



[Edit]

Wait a minute... you're quoting a reverend? Pssshaw. He died in 1933. He hasn't seen any of the newer findings.

Answer 5

Oh yea? My dad can beat up your dad....



There are many opinions about this in academia. For every critical story refuting Joseph Smith's claims, there are also those that support Joseph's claims.



Arguing about it will only leave each side more firmly entrenched in their prior position, you certainly prove that.



The BEST way to learn the truth of ALL things is an appeal to the Bible. That is where Christian faith begins. The Bible teaches us to find the truth by asking God. You do that with sincerity, and you will learn the truth.



I have, and that is why I am a

Answer 6

Being an expert doesn't make them God. The book of Abraham was translated by the power of GOD, not some book learned expert.

Answer 7

The experts have never examined the papyrus scrolls from which the Book of Abraham was derived. They have seen fragments and from those fragments they are using their man made wisdom to declare that revelation from God is wrong. Their arrogance to presume that they know more than God is the epitome of pride which has no place in heaven. Man's wisdom is foolishness with God. To be learned is good if we hearken to the counsels of God. The egyptologist experts have not hearkened to God at all.

Don't think that I am speaking out of thin air. I have three university degrees of my own including science and law. I know how to question evidence and access facts. With my own experience and experiments I have verified to my own satisfaction through the workings of the spirit, that the gospel is true as taught in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The truth is available to all who will seek it in faith, humility and sincerity. If not, they will never find it.

Answer 8

the gift of translation could have unusual spiritual gifts.

i believe the pearl of great price is a true translation, even if the papri was not the actual book.

the PoGP has information the book of genesis doesn't have.



maybe its more like a pshychic that can touch things and see things that is true but no one would no otherwise except the gift is there.

Answer 9

There are a few documentaries that explain why it is wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvdqiTOf0PA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn1iGvXU0dI



You'll notice that even the description for the picture is wrong. Joseph Smith says it is some priest who is about to sacrifice Abraham. The Book of Abraham has a lot of details about his translations, written by Joseph Smith himself.



EDIT:

There is also the "Caractors" document

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Caractors_large.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Egyptian

Answer 10

The current favorite apologist response is: "The scrolls that were recovered were not all of the scrolls. Obviously the part about Abraham was on a part of the scrolls that were lost."



The problem with this answer is that a] the facsimiles that are in the Mormon scriptures are on the recovered scrolls and b] Joseph Smith and his scribes put together an "Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar" where they copied Egyptian hieroglyphs from the scroll and then wrote next to them the English "translation" which matches up to the Mormon scriptures. The hieroglyphs that they wrote in thie "Alphabet and Grammar" are included, next to the facsimiles, on the recovered scroll. So to conclude that the recovered scroll has NOTHING to do with the Mormon "Book of Abraham" is disingenuous at best.



Charles Larson wrote an excellent book on the subject called "By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus" that examines all the evidence and it is catastrophic to the Mormon claims.



The evidence is just overwhelming. But the rank and file Mormons are completely clueless about it, because the church discourages them from reading any "anti-mormon" literature, which is basically anything that is not "faith promoting" and which has not received the stamp of approval from the Mormon leadership. Classic mind-control technique.



EDIT: That's amazing that Light and Truth found all those articles by independent, objective Egyptologists that confirm Mormon claims. Oh...wait a sec, every single one of those articles were written by the Mormon church's paid apologists, FARMS! Hmmm, I wonder what conclusion they will have in their articles...? lol

Answer 11

Experts in anything are not nearly as smart as God.



Even the documents that we currently have were lost for decades, it is a fact that ALL will admit. Yet "experts", don't even give this tiny little tidbit of information any credibility in their research when it should be the most influential piece of evidence available... it's generally not even mentioned. This should give anyone in their right mind a clue to their agenda.



When experts don't present all the facts and give credibility to all the facts then we know they are bias and shouldn't be trusted.

Answer 12

Because the papyrus they were using to translate was not the ones that Joseph Smith translated for the Book of Abraham. Yes the papyrus that we have today was bought together with the scrolls used for the Book of Abraham. It is believed that the scrolls Joseph Smith translated from was destroyed in a Chicago museum fire.



@Paul, I guess a simple explanation was not sufficient. I was referring to the actual text of the Book of Abraham. My apologies I should have been more clear. In response to what you say about the fascimiles I have a pdf that is very interesting. Its called "the Joseph Smith Hypocephalus...Twenty Years Later" by Michael D. Rhodes. Look it up



Here is one paragraph from the 14 page document to give you a desire to read it yourself.



"It is especially significant to recognize that knowledge of these things was unavailable even to the best scholars of Joseph Smith's day. The pseudepigraphic works attributed to Abraham I cited above, for example, first came to light near the turn of this century. The demotic papyri referring to Abraham were not published until 1839 and a translation of them not until 1904. Although Champollion had deciphered Egyptian hieroglyphs in 1822, it required many years of painstaking work before Egyptologists were able to publish grammars and dictionaries of the Egyptian language. Joseph Smith simply could not have acquired the understanding he had of these things from the world. Nevertheless, as this study has shown, many of the prophet's explanations of the hypocephalus illustrated in Facsimile 2 are supported by our present understanding of ancient Egyptian religion, and are in fact especially typical of Late Egyptian religious writings. One or two could conceivably be dismissed as mere chance or lucky guessing, but the many correct interpetations taken together are impossible to ignore. It is clear that Joseph Smith knew what he was talking about. This only reaffirms what every honest person can learn in earnest prayer, that Joseph Smith received these things from God, even as he claimed."

Answer 13

"Toa" wrote: "Because the papyrus they were using to translate was not the ones that Joseph Smith translated for the Book of Abraham."



False. The "Book of Abraham" includes, even today, facsimiles of the papyrus used to translate the Book of Abraham in it. Those "facsimiles," and the explanation given for them in the Book of Abraham, are completely false. They're made-up nonsense, and that is a fact.



It was thought for many years that the original papyrus was lost. Then it was found, in a storage room in Chicago. It was attached to paper with notes in Joseph Smith's handwriting -- it's the same papyrus. When it was first found, mormons were ecstatic, expecting "experts" to examine it and declare Joseph Smith correct, "proving" him a true prophet. Big problem...the papyrus said NOTHING that Smith said it did. And it dates from the 1st - 2nd century CE, not "Abraham's" time -- showing the claim Smith made that the papyrus was the words of Abraham, "by his own hand upon papyrus" also completely false.



Their "dodge" is to claim it's not the same papyrus -- but it is. There's no question. Of course, honesty on the part of mormons would show their beliefs false, so they avoid it.

Answer 14

I'm not Mormon, but I'll guess they will say something to the effect of "Those experts are wrong."

Answer 15

There are other that say it is true, by how it is written, the time it was produced, etc.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/search/?fulltext=book+of+abraham&search=Go&start=10



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