Why do most dialogues between atheists and theists usually collapse before either gets a point across?

Question

My theory is as follows:

The conflict between theists and atheists on the surface appears to be about gods and the presence or absence of evidence to support them. Others may interpret the conflict to be about faith verses fact.

In any event, a dialogue must be established before information can be exchanged and as long as both sides see the other as the enemy that will never happen.

"People don't care about how much you know until they know how much you care."

There are countless reasons religion appeals to humanity: comfort, fellowship, love, purpose, etc.

Science, on the other hand, is not comforting. You can not have a "personal relationship" with science.

People who are driven by reason and logic are innately capable of living in a universe without gods or superstition - - it makes sense to them.

However, some people are driven by emotions and feelings so creation and a loving god make more sense to them than a godless universe. Simple human psychology.

Agree? Disagree? Please explain? Thank you.

Answer 1

Why do most dialogues between atheists and theists usually collapse before either gets a point across?



- Because the idiot fundies won't shut up and let an intelligent point get across.



The conflict between theists and atheists on the surface appears to be about gods and the presence or absence of evidence to support them.



- No, the conflict is that fundies can believe what they want, but the problem arises when they INSIST that everyone else believe their fantasies too.



Others may interpret the conflict to be about faith verses fact.



- No, it is about fundies trying to force their fantasies onto other people and they will lie under oath in court to do it.



and as long as both sides see the other as the enemy that will never happen.



- If they would stop lying and screaming hatred then we could have a "dialogue".



"People don't care about how much you know until they know how much you care."



- "Knowing" anything is not the problem, forcing fantasies onto people "IS" the problem.



There are countless reasons religion appeals to humanity: comfort, fellowship, love, purpose, etc.



- That is absolutely wonderful, but WHY do you have to force that onto people WHO DO NOT WANT IT?



Science, on the other hand, is not comforting.



- It isn't to people who do not have the intelligence to understand it. To those of us with functional brain cells it is quite comforting.



You can not have a "personal relationship" with science.



- And you cannot have a personal relationship with a hallucination, not matter hoe much you scream about it.



People who are driven by reason and logic are innately capable of living in a universe without gods or superstition



- And what is wrong with thinking and intelligence?



However, some people are driven by emotions and feelings



- Good, wonderful, - now - WHY DO THEY HAVE TO FORCE THAT ONTO EVERYONE THEY MEET?



and a loving god make more sense to them than a godless universe.



- Good, now keep it to yourself.



Simple human psychology.



- Yes, agree, NOW explain to me why they HAVE to force that onto everyone they meet WHEN THOSE PEOPLE SAY they do not want to have that fantasy forced upon them. ANSWER THAT.

Answer 2

Because both parties have already made up their minds before the conversation began. That's why neither gets a point across. It's really that simple. And it's for different reasons. An atheist is willing to believe in god, but only with EVIDENCE and the theist can YAP at him all day long and that's not evidence of anything. The theist however is completely unwilling to choose reality over their fairy tales even in the face of evidence. And they always have some sort of set of safety nets to safeguard their positions. Like the last Jehovah's Witnesses to come to my door, they had 2 prophesies, one that in the end times, nation would rise against nation, and the other, that in the end times, leaders of nations would promise peace and security. These are vague enough already, and both almost always true, but they're also negatively correlated. Both are usually true, but one is DEFINITELY going to be true, if one of them isn't true, the other one definitely will be. And so they can always be interpreted to be signs of the end times. This was how they were trying to talk me into thinking as they did, that we were in the end times. I pointed out that it would be impossible for neither of those prophesies to be true, at ANY time, and it went in one ear, out the other.

Answer 3

What do you not understand about this being an open forum‽



Surely you lack the tolerance and intellect to discuss and debate on a public forum - so feel free to leave!



But why not stay, learn some tolerance, grow your intellect and in the process become a much better person!



If you think your post makes you look intelligent the sad truth is the absolute opposite!

Answer 4

My wife is a Christian and I am an atheist. Our dialogue on the matter goes like this:



Wife: i think there is more to this life than the here and now and I believe in God.



Me: I don't.



It doesn't get past that really and doesn't come up much.

Answer 5

"Many believers admit that nothing could change their mind about their religious beliefs, which means they are no longer seekers of truth and have become, in essence, mindless religious robots. Religion consistently and effectively discourages introspection and inquiry. That isn't by accident."-- Bob Peters

Answer 6

I don't disagree, exactly. I'm sure this is sometimes, and maybe even often, a factor. But... there are some 7 billion people in this world! Who are obviously going to have their own distinctive reasons for believing, or not believing!



So.. in addition to the groups you mentioned, you also get liberal believers who are still very logically + rationally minded, and who fully embrace science. (Although obviously, in order for this to work, they can't believe in anything that's directly contradicted by scientific evidence.) Just like you get plenty of atheists who aren't really all that logical and rational.. Like for instance, there are many Europeans who were raised without religion, and who are non-believers by default because of it, without that really saying much of ANYTHING about their personality, or their ways of thinking. And there are people who become atheists for emotional reasons, due to negative experiences with religion and religious indoctrination, and a subsequent *highly* emotionally driven rejection of it.



Also, there are plenty of people like myself, who are deeply spiritual in our own ways, without embracing conventional, dogmatic religion. And there's direct mystical experience, as a reason for why people believe in and try to connect with that higher reality of God/divinity/Oneness, using all sorts of different spiritual practices, and all sorts of different religious and non-religious frameworks for thinking about it and making sense of it, (some dogmatic, others not), which I think most atheists on here far too readily dismiss. And sure... Plenty of people are attracted to religious communities, due to the sense of fellowship and belonging that can be offered there. But.. there are also people who practice their spirituality in solitude, (especially a lot of Wiccans and Buddhists), for whom that is obviously NOT a sufficient explanation for their worldview/perceived reality! And there are people like me, who have been atheists in the past, who still understand all of the atheist arguments. But who ultimately ended up finding something more than that... Through intense mystical experience, that shattered all my previously held paradigms, in my case.



So yeah... That's just some of the possibilities I felt like pointing out. And also, I want to mention that your way of thinking about people as being just EITHER emotionally or intellectually driven, although probably true in a lot of cases, seems to me like a false dichotomy. Because I know personally, I'm both highly emotional, rather intelligent, AND someone who thinks very deeply about these things! (As you can probably tell from this answer.) :)

Answer 7

I didn't even read the whole thing but all I can say is that theists are wrong and atheists are right.

Answer 8

It is hard to communicate with those who have closed their minds for business. Theist arguments break down rapidly in the face of facts that prove them wrong, they collapse under their own negative weight. When their argument inevitably collapses, they resort to calling names, and other immature antics to deflect attention away from the fact that they have nothing to show for it all.

Answer 9

THERE IS NO "CONFLICT " BETWEEN FAITH AND FACT!!! EDUCATED INDIVIDUALS KNOW FACTS ARE NOT JUST STORIES MADE UP BY ANCIENT MEN, JUST PROCLAIMING A IMAGINARY BEING OR TWO EXIST THAT RUN THIS WORLD!!! USING MAN MADE UP STORIES THAT THEY CLAIM CAME FROM THE MIND OF AN IMAGINARY BEING!! AND THAT IS THEIR WHOLE EVIDENCE A STORY IN MANS HANDWRITING!!! GODS HAVE NO LEAD IN THEIR PENCILS!!! FACT: A PROVEN STATEMENT BACKED BY EVIDENCES!! ....FAITH: A SELF MADE UP STATEMENT JUST BELIEVED TO BE TRUE!!! SO WHERE IS THE RIFT!???

Answer 10

Atheists have no basis for their purpose in life, their meaning of life nor their morality. How do you reconcile that with logic and reason?

Answer 11

How does one argue against absolute certainty?



We atheists make no claims with certainty.

We simply deny your claims of absolute certainty.

But please do try again.

Answer 12

"You can not have a "personal relationship" with science. "



Sure you can. If you can have a "personal relationship" with a non-existent fairy tale character you can have one with anything.

Answer 13

All things supernatural are imaginary.

Answer 14

Dawkins, an atheist scientist, doesn't give atheists the option of open dialogue with believers. His order is to simply - mock and ridicule.



What's he afraid of ?





Also, stating atheists are driven by logic and reason is not correct, unless you think Stalin and Pol Pot were driven by logic and reason?

Answer 15

i have never blocked or reported anyone. i think you can say whatever, when ever.

Answer 16

atheists hate God