Question:
Help debating a creationist?
RachelPPC
2009-01-09 10:51:29 UTC
In my Psyc class the text mentioned Darwin's discoveries and the theory of evolution. A fellow classmate, who clearly believes in intellegent design, made a comment I found offensive and a friendly (if heated) debate ensued.

Referring to Isaiah 40:22, he makes mention that the earth was known to be round as is written in the bible, and yet others had thought of it as flat.

I am aware that Christianity is a newer religon in the grand scheme of things, and that many polytheistic religions came before it....and that the Christian bible dates the earth's existance as much younger than science thinks it is.

But, being as I'm at work, and haven't my resources with me, I'm having a difficult time locating a time line, and specific information to support my stance in favor of science.

Any help?
27 answers:
2009-01-09 10:58:29 UTC
You don't, Reason is that no matter what evidence you have receievd From Atheist Secular Sources concernig Evolution, it will not be accepted, as it is known that all this evidence is Fabricated by an elite group of Atheist Evolutionary Scientist who's agenda is (out of hatred for God or even the mention of God) to Destroy all religoius influenece in this Nation and the world, Yes We Believe it is a Conspiracy, So it doesn't matter what evidence you bring or what Credfibility the 'world' assigns to it, it will not be accepted.



This is what we believe



The Young Age of the Earth

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1272542059740401469



The Origin of Man by Dr. Duane Gish

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3FZDysZKFQ



The Origins of Life

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3181822797567477581



Creation In The 21st Century From Where did these Layers Come (From) 1 of 3 (Global Flood)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZyoXQJ5Al0



Creation in the 21st Century - Overwhelming Evidence 1 of 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o226umqLdsU



Skull Fossils - As Empty as the Evolutionary Theory

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Yu5jN897kM



Neanderthals - Smarter Then We Thought

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxL636n3w2o



Dinosaurs: Those Terrible Lizards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVvGByvp13Q



Our Solar System: Evidence For Creation

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2535369046252590943&ei=_aqlSOe3MYOm4QLPkeki&q=creation+evidence&hl=en



Birds and Flight: Evolved or Designed?

http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=Dr.%20Andy%20McInstosh&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#
2009-01-11 16:47:25 UTC
I'm not at all well read on the subject of Creationism - just interested. So, my contribution to this debate is therefore of a pretty general nature, and may be going off on a bit of a tangent, but hopefully still relevant.



My point?: There is no doubt that there are millions of Suns and planets in the Universe, and we humans have put together some pretty good data to date that informs us that there is unlikely to be life existing (certainly not in His image!) on those other planets that are close enough for us to observe. We are told by Creationists that an all-powerful entity decided to create a place (Earth), and some creatures (us and all of the tens of thousands of other forms of animal life, necessary to sustain us), plus a fantastic variety of plants and minerals, also essential for our existence - and not forgetting a Sun which would provide a convenient long term heat source for us.



When the Creator did all this, he also laid down a set of rules that were designed to control our lives in a manner that would command us to follow his will. If the rules were to be disobeyed, then horrific and never ending punishment would be our fate, once we were dead.



It's an awful lot of work and also rather pointless. What would be the rationale for such an idea. And what would an intelligent Creator get out of the 'exercise'. Was he just playing around for Seven Days because he was bored at the time, or maybe the Creation was simply a device to satisfy an extreme form of vanity. What satisfaction would a benevolent Creator get from sending fallible humans to eternal punishment - and what would be the 'feel-good' factor for this God, knowing that most of those who have followed his will have done so out of fear. In our current world surely we would consider any person who would wish to control other humans in this way as having some form of serious mental disorder? Should such a creator be revered, or reviled?
Simon T
2009-01-09 19:12:02 UTC
Plates are round, that does not mean that the Earth is shaped like a plate.



There are references to spheres and balls in the Bible, so it is not like the right words did not exist.



Also the Isaiah says:

11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.



The four corners of a sphere?



The bible also calls bats fowl (birds), talks about 4 legged insects, says the Earth is immobile.

Psalms 93:1 The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.





Meanwhile science says that:

The universe, as we know it, started 13.7 billion years ago.

The solar system, and the Earth formed about 4.5 billion years ago.

Fossilized lifeforms have been dated to about 3.5 billion years ago.
2009-01-09 19:12:56 UTC
It says in the Bible that the Earth has four corners, that is circular, that it stands on pillars, that is doesn't move.. etc. The particular verse (Isaiah 40:22) actually states that the Earth is circular - not round. Whether you interpret it as a metaphor or not, the Bible certainly doesn't make the claim that the Earth was spherical.



Here is an index of creationist arguments and responses:

http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Creationist_Arguments

Unfortunately, EvoWiki isn't working at the moment so this'll have to do.



You might want to start with asking what his/her qualifications are in evolutionary biology, lol. Make sure they know the difference between evolution and the Theory of Evolution (I doubt he/she does).
thebrewpub
2009-01-09 19:14:08 UTC
Well, this might be making too much of a technicality, but a circle and a sphere are not the same thing. One is 2 dimensional and the other is 3 dimensional.

This seems like another case of modern Christians trying to make something fit that doesn't; trying to argue how Scripture is scientific somehow. It's not.

If Isaiah really did mean to convey that the earth is a sphere as opposed to a flat circle, like it sounds, then no one else in his time--or thousands of years afterward--believed him.

Your classmate is really grasping at straws if this is his attempt at solid proof of anything.

That aside, you could put the whole matter to rest by looking up the original Hebrew words for this passage to see what was said and meant.

UPDATE....

the passage (Isaiah 40:22) is...

"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."

I looked up the original hebrew and the operative word (circle) appears to mean just what is says "circle, circuit or compass". Combined with the word used for earth it means "land or landmass".

Basically Isaiah is merely saying God presides over the earth. He's not actually trying to describe the shape of the earth in any specific terms; certainly not trying to make the point that the earth is spherical instead of flat and round.

BEST ANSWER FOR SURE, RIGHT?
Spazzy- McGee
2009-01-09 18:54:51 UTC
What do you mean by time line? I have some ideas about what you are talking about and I can probably help, but can you be more specific?



Very simply put the current predominant models of each scientific field support: The universe once much smaller and began expanding 13.7 billion years ago from when it was nearly infinitely dense (Big Bang). Earth formed 4.5 billion years ago around our Sun because of gravity. Life began fairly soon on Earth the first fossil of bacteria being dated at 3.5 billion years old.



Abiogenesis is the theory that life evolved from non-living matter. Early conditions on Earth lead to the creation of a lot of organic molecules. Complex sugars and proteins kept bumping around each other in Earth's primordial oceans. At some point fairly soon in the history of Earth some of those organic molecules formed a molecule that replicates by motivating the organic matter around it to form into itself. These self replicating molecules have been created in labs and observed. Over time the oceans filled with these simple self replicating molecules and changed do to further random occurrences. The molecules most adept at self replication become predominant while the inferior chains disappeared. Over time the molecules evolved into the first very simple cell. That cell evolved further into the first bacteria.



From there life became multicellular and became plants and animals. One species developed the first backbone and then evolved into fish, amphibians, reptiles, mammals, birds, and every other vertebrate.



Humans evolved from an ape like ancestor after a dry period forced our ancestors out of the jungle and into the savanna. Mankind became smart over time, branched of into many species (like neanderthals), and finally culminated in mankind becoming the dominant species, wiping all other humanoids on Earth, and developing civilization.



I could go into greater detail on most any of what I mentioned, but I didn't feel like typing up a whole dissertation for you. lol

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Some things you might want to ask:



"If everything needs a creator as you say then what created God?" If they say "God doesn't need a creator" then say "Then why does the universe?" Point out that they cant just make up a rule that applied to what they don't believe and then not apply it to their alternative.



They will likely say carbon dating is inaccurate. If they do then ask what their alternative dating method is. They will have none. Also point out that it would be a tremendous coincidence that the simpler life is the older it appears if the dating is indeed inaccurate.



If they say evolution is just a theory then tell them that scientific theories are not "just guesses" as many say. An idea is first a hypothesis. When that hypothesis is tested and all evidence supports it and it is generally accepted by the scientific community it then generally become a scientific theory. Currently 99.8% of the scientific community trusts in the evolutionary model.
Physfreak
2009-01-09 19:02:34 UTC
All you have to say is this:

Creation "science" isn't science at all, it's biblically based. For science to work properly one must formulate a truth AFTER making observations. Creation "science" is backward; it starts with a 'truth' and attempts to make the data fit the model; in real world industries this is known as 'pencil-whipping' or forgery and is a federal crime.



Also you may direct him to Isaiah 11:12, the four corners of the earth phrase. Couple that in with another posters' comment about the falt circle and ask him if earth is a 'cornered circle'.
2009-01-09 19:03:41 UTC
Geological analysis of rocks show the Earth to be around 6 billion years old, approximately the same age as the Sun.

By analysing the cosmological redshift of cosmic background radiation (a remnant of the Big Bang), we know that the universe is around 13.4 billion years old.



But, seriously, he's no less likely to cave on his beliefs than you are, and I have found that debating with Creationists is a complete waste of time.
FUNdie
2009-01-09 19:02:52 UTC
The idea that the earth was "flat" was a pagan concept that was circulated by the Catholic Church during the Dark Ages. During that time, it was illegal to read the Bible or have even a page of scripture on your person, so people remained in the dark about what the Bible said about the shape of the earth (in Isaiah 40:22).

Also, all the other religions do not predate the Judeo-Christian religion, because that was the religion of Adam and Eve, way back at Creation. The other religions didn't show up until AFTER the Flood, which was about 1600 years after Creation. There were only 8 survivors of the Flood, and they "just happened" to be the only ones who worshipped the True God of Creation. I think God pretty much narrowed it down there as to which religion was the "right" religion. Noah's great-grandson, Nimrod, was the inventor of all sun-worship religions. From there, there were variations - moon-worship, nature-worship, self-worship. All ancient and modern religions (except for Judeo-Christianity) fit into one of these categories.



Just a question - what do you find "offensive" about intelligent design"?
skunkgrease
2009-01-09 19:02:03 UTC
You can say that it's not a debate because Creationism does not have any data to support it, only faith and the bible. Two sources that are considered scientific in anyway. You can say that the bible was written at a time when our knowledge of the universe was limited. Science has sense came in and did a better job at understanding our origins.
whitehorse456
2009-01-09 18:57:17 UTC
Healthy, respectful debate is always a good thing I believe. But the Christian Bible records the creation of the earth, and the first two humans Adam and Eve (who worshiped the God of the Bible). I am confident you will have a difficult time convincing a faithful Christian that other religions preceded Christianity.
2009-01-10 12:19:24 UTC
Lucifer, known as Satan is the God of this world. It was He who created the Universe and this Earth. Lucifer is the Creator God of humanity. Satan is the bringer of Knowledge. Lucifer represents Life. Lucifer is not the Devil of the Christian Bible. The Christian Bible has it all wrong about Lucifer.
2009-01-09 19:02:56 UTC
Some false assumptions you made about Christianity.....



There is no "official Christian timeline." Some Christians think the earth is younger, and some think its older.



Christianity also continues in the Jewish tradition using the God of Abraham. It didnt just "start" in the 1st century.
Righteous James
2009-01-09 19:22:43 UTC
Well let's dwell into science and look at rna. The genetic code is nearly universal, shared by organism from bacteria to humans. The rna codon CCG is translated as the amino acid proline in all organisms so far that have been examined.



This language is shared by all living things and so must have evolved very early to be present in all modern organism.



Edit: Yes, Darwin was off on somethings but that is science and heck maybe later on in life something else will be discovered that will change everything.



btw, should've asked question in the biolegy section NOT RELIGION & SPIRITUALITY.
HeavenBound
2009-01-09 19:03:42 UTC
Hello, I am a Christian, and I believe in the Creator of All. But, I'm here to say that not all Christians think the earth has only been here for 6000 years or so. I don't, who's to say the earth's not been here millions or billions of years. The one thing alot of Christians get tangled up with is, the very first line of the Bible. 'In the beginning', maybe God started it this way because it was the beginning of Man

read the following



I spoke to a skeptic who said, "I can't believe the Bible because it teaches that the earth was created six thousand years ago." I replied, "Where does the Bible say that?" He said, "In Genesis". I remarked, "Show me." Of course he couldn't show me. He was poly-parroting what he thought that the Bible taught. So many times people reject the Bible because of what they think it says. Often times they have never read the Bible. Unfortunately many Christians don't know what the Bible teaches, and therefore are not ready with an answer. God invites the thinking reasoning person to examine what His Word does say. "Come now, let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."



As to the creation of the earth God does not set a date. God says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (Genesis 1:1)." This could have been billions of years ago, sometime in the dateless past. In fact, nothing in the Biblical record contradicts known fact. On the contrary, the Bible record gives us an amazing account of how the earth came into being and it's future destiny.



First of all, the earth was created in the dateless, countless past, then later judged and became void and without form. The seven days in Genesis chapter one were really a recreation of the earth and God making it inhabitable again. In type this is a beautiful picture of the new birth, a new creation where once was all chaos and ruin.



The creation of the original earth was "In the beginning." It was doubtless a most beautiful earth, covered with vegetation and inhabited with fish, fowl, and animal life. How long it continued in this condition we are not told, but an awful catastrophe befell the earth--it became "formless and void," and submerged in water and darkness (Genesis 1:2).



It is clear from Scripture that the earth was not void when originally created as seen by Isaiah 45:18. Notice, "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, (translated "void" in Genesis 1:2), he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else."



Comments on Genesis 1:2 by Dr. C.I. Scofield in the Scofield reference Bible say, "Jeremiah 4:23-26, Isaiah 24:1 and 45:18, clearly indicate that the earth had undergone a cataclysmic change as the result of divine judgment. The face of the earth bears everywhere the marks of such a catastrophe. There are not wanting intimations which connect it with a previous testing and fall of angels. See Ezekiel 28:12-15 and Isaiah 14:9-14, which certainly go beyond the kings of the Tyre and Babylon." (Scofield reference Bible, page 3, footnote 3).



Contrary to popular thought, Satan lived on the earth and not in heaven. Lucifer (Satan's name before the fall) was ruling over the original earth. All of God's angels were living on the original earth. In Isaiah chapter 14 we have the five "I wills" of Satan. This passage reveals that when Satan fell he was ruler here on the earth. Satan said, "I will ascend into heaven." He was obviously not in heaven. Satan said, "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God." He was a ruler and was below the stars on the earth. Satan said, "I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation in the side of the North." The Bible hints that heaven is in the North and Satan wanted to go there. Satan said, "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds." Satan was below the clouds on the earth. Also, II Corinthians 4:4 identifies Satan as the "God of this world."



God judged the earth (Genesis 1:2) when Lucifer took one-third of God's angels in a rebellion against God. The earth was flooded and submerged with water and was in darkness. Scientists tell us that if our sun's light were cut off from the earth for as little as 72 hours that our earth would quickly become frozen. Perhaps this would explain the ice ages. Perhaps this might explain the mammoths found quick frozen in Siberian earth with undigested vegetation still in their stomachs. Petroleum is the fossilized remains of animal life. Coal is the fossilized remains of plant life. Was this from the original earth? Perhaps many fossils are from the animal life from the original earth created prior to Adam & Eve.



Genesis is the book of beginnings. It records not only the beginning of the he
Kissthepilot
2009-01-09 19:01:21 UTC
We are all in favor of science. All true science agrees with the Bible. Why do you want to debate someone who is correct? Why would you be offended by the truth? If science is just information, why does any conflicting information offend you? Ever hear of projection?



Evolution is self-defeating. Be careful what you wish for, because if you truly look into ID and creation with an open mind, you might just find yourself believing in it.
JWill
2009-01-09 18:57:05 UTC
Read all of Isaiah, the author clearly thought the earth was round like a penny. Regardless, ancient Greeks knew the earth was round before this.



"The earth takes shape like clay under a seal." (Job 38:14)
2009-01-09 18:55:57 UTC
actually the Bible for christians never gives any date or age of the earth



there are some people who use the bible to date the earth but that is flawed
Innocent Victim
2009-01-09 19:16:12 UTC
Debating a creationist, eh? I know something that's more fun, and more rewarding. Find a concrete block wall somewhere, and beat your head against it for a while.
2009-01-09 18:58:38 UTC
You may want to try "talk origins." Here's the link to their macro-evolutionary archive. http://www.toarchive.org/faqs/comdesc/



If you have facebook, you may want to try the Atheist Agnostic and Non Religious (AANR) group. The members there have plenty of experience with people trying to debate them from a creationist standpoint, and they'll be able to give you a ton of links and arguments to use against this person.
2009-01-09 18:57:07 UTC
Job 38:13

13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?



http://www.answering-christianity.com/earth_flat.htm
Dreamstuff Entity
2009-01-09 18:56:59 UTC
Isaiah claims the earth is a CIRCLE. A circle is a shape that is round and flat (well, two-dimensional).



And don't let him lie to you and say there's no Hebrew word for a sphere, or that the word used there means both.



Read "the flat earth bible": http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm
2009-01-09 18:56:24 UTC
Proof for evolution:

The fossil record

Evolving non-life chemicals in a lab (this one is awesome! http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/01/replicatingrna.html)

Shared human/ape DNA



Ask for support of Creationism - remember, even if they SOMEHOW disprove evolution (which could only happen with a biased or ignorant teacher - evolution is hard fact), that doesn't mean you default to Creationism - it means you look at your evidence again.
Ramona
2009-01-09 19:02:06 UTC
If you have to stop and ask for help on debating against a creationist...You must not be very strong in what you believe to be true! Check yourself honny!! Maybe you don't believe what you think you believe and you need to get your facts straight before you even try to start debating!!
2009-01-09 18:56:08 UTC
What, specifically, are you trying to refute?



You may email me if you wish.
See Dee
2009-01-09 18:55:12 UTC
People who have to debate their religious (or lack of) beliefs are almost always the ones who haven't quite convinced THEMSELVES that what they believe is actually true.
2009-01-09 18:58:21 UTC
Science does confirm the Bible.

http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/scientificfactsintheBible.shtml



http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/scienceconfirmsthebible.shtml



http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/evolution.gif



http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/questionsforevolutionists.shtml


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
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