Question:
How can I reason with this Pastor down at the mall?
2013-11-26 04:46:02 UTC
There is a children's play ground at the mall. Our kids both play there while our wives shop. He has cornered me on several Saturday afternoons. I fear I have become his mission in life. He's told me many fascinating things about his God. What his God likes, and what he hates. All of his plans including who goes to hell, who goes to heaven, and why. I am surprised he doesn't know God's shoe size. When I asked him to please define what it is he wants me to believe in. Suddenly God becomes unknowable, beyond human comprehension , and mysterious. How can I tell this guy in a nice way that he is Contradicting himself ?
25 answers:
Rockin' Robin
2013-11-26 04:57:50 UTC
At the mall? Seriously?





>"How can I tell this guy in a nice way that he is Contradicting himself ?"<

Don't bother. Just politely tell him to leave you the frig alone, and that if he doesn't, you'll report him to mall security for soliciting.
Ceisiwr
2013-12-04 11:53:39 UTC
You could tell him that belief in a god probably goes back to times when people didn't understand how the seasons worked. And when winter came and the crops no longer grew, some sort of sacrifice would have been made to the sun, and then it came back and the crops grew. The people would have associated the sacrifice with the positive outcome, and they wouldn't have dared not do it again because they couldn't risk famine.



In time the sacrifice will have become more sophisticated, and perhaps the idea came about that the sun might be the gift of a god rather than the god itself. This might be a way, or similar to a way, that religion developed.



People would then have assumed that the laws that their ancestors devised came from the god, so the religion would have become even more sophisticated still, providing authority for the laws and fear of a vengeful god if laws were disobeyed, and the same fear would make others stone to death anyone who breached a law to avoid vengeance being visited on the whole community.



There are probably other elements, but it will have gone back to the dawn of civilisation.



And it's become institutionalised, and there are many religions, cults, sects and denominations (including "non-denominational", "not a religion but a personal relationship...", and many others). It's survived because it's become institutionalised, provides a living for some, and is deeply ingrained into traditions and into national, international or intra-national identities; that it's still survived is both puzzling and fascinating.
Annsan_In_Him
2013-11-26 07:13:56 UTC
Your avatar not only depicts you as a lost soul, it declares you to be one, so probably you go around looking like the lost soul that you are.



This guy may have noticed.



Anyway, just write down on a card: "You told me what God likes and hates. You told me His plans about who goes to hell and who goes to heaven.

But you also told me that God is unknowable, beyond human comprehension and mysterious.

This strikes me as contradictory.

Please write an answer on the back of this card and when I walk by the next time, hand it over. Thanks!"



Before he can start to talk next time you're at the mall, just hand him the card and keep on walking. Don't stop. Just smile, say not a word, hand him the card and keep walking. But do make sure the following visit to the mall, you approach him and ask if he's filled in the card.

AiH
Astaroth
2013-11-26 05:47:53 UTC
The Thinking Atheist has some great resources on the subject http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/refuting-the-bible There is also the Iron Chariots Wiki http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Main_Page.

And here is the podcast on "A manual for creating atheists"

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/thethinkingatheist/2013/11/06/a-manual-for-creating-atheists-with-dr-peter-boghossian-1.mp3



Be aware that most Theists cannot be reasoned with. They will use rational thought in every aspect of their lives except their religion. I do think that the attitude of asking questions is more productive than just pointing out the contradictions.
2013-11-26 08:09:46 UTC
It is probably because he believes in the Trinity. That is a such a mystery that it certainly does make it seem that it is impossible to get to know God. Ask him this... Is Jesus God? He will answer Yes. Then ask him... Well then why did Jesus say at John 6:38. Jesus said: “I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.” Now, that statement would be a bit puzzling if Jesus were God right?



Also, when Jesus was baptized who did he dedicate his life to? And whose voice was it that came down from heaven?



It would be hard to have a relationship with God if you do not actually know who he is.
Old Man Dirt
2013-11-26 06:03:56 UTC
As long as you try to reason with him- he will reason back and feel there is hope for a convert.

Just change the subject to the latest fashion trend, or the weather. Maybe start sharing with him your favorite new recipe or something neutral or at least off of the subject of religion.
James K
2013-11-26 04:54:07 UTC
If you have asked nicely for him to leave you alone (which is your right), and he does not, then you do not need to be as nice the next time. You have no requirement to educate the entire world in logic or reason simply because you do not believe as he.



Additionally, you could ask him why he does not believe in any of the other ten thousand gods ever proposed -without- using the Bible as a reference. If he cannot, simply tell him that you do not believe anyone who cannot express themselves.
?
2013-11-26 05:52:54 UTC
You can't reason with people about their religions. That's what "faith" means in a religious context. I recommend you just change the topic to something more interesting, like NASCAR or Harry Potter.
daicactus
2013-11-26 05:56:06 UTC
Don't waste your breath. I know a false prophet when I'm told about one.



Does he have a flashy suit and dyed hair? That's a sure sign.
?
2013-11-26 04:53:49 UTC
I have a better one. My mom and I went on vacation to Hawaii about 2yrs ago. While waiting for the bus, some lady came up to me and started talking about Buddhism. She mentioned about how it changed her life and even handed me a pamphlet. (I kid you not, yes I was confused because R&S says buddhist don't do that). Anyway I was nice and listened. I kept the pamphlet for a bit, but I lost it.
2013-11-26 05:01:51 UTC
I have found that when dealing with the mentally ill, it is best to avoid the object of their delusion.



When 10,000 people talk to god, they are called a religion

When 100 people talk to god, they are called a cult

When 1 person talks to god, they are called crazy
2013-11-26 05:04:15 UTC
You'll not learn anything of God from catholics, christians, or muslims.



Here is a good one for you, "God will save all of mankind", God means to save all of us, not just some.



They even put "forever and ever" in there, it was never eternal, the only thing that was eternal in this book was happiness, the "first things" are finished and things are okay.



They also put "hell" in there, there is no hell whatsoever, thats all horseshyte!



In fact, the more you get into how they butchered the whole thing it becomes obvious, we're being lied to about a whole lotta stuff!
B Knott Wildered
2013-11-26 09:20:05 UTC
You can start by realizing you frequently contradict yourself. Then, come to an intelligent and reasonable way to tell yourself that you are contradicting yourself and when you can do that without arguing with yourself, you will be well on your way.
Keith
2013-11-26 04:52:26 UTC
How can I tell you he is right, for your kids sake, take notes and go get a Bible and Read. It is no mistake, that your paths do collide. One day in eternity, this will be played back, to you and your denial I hope would be temporary, before this takes place. The Bible would explain to you more than he probably can, with the help of the 'Invisible God/Holy Spirit' that the Pastor Rightly Points you too. God bless you and this Pastor, tell him I say hi and keep up the Good work. Peace Out Know Jesus Know Peace No Jesus No Peace
Brigalow Bloke
2013-11-26 04:53:55 UTC
Ask him what happened to the millions of people who lived and died before Jesus was born.



Then ask him why Hindus think Christianity is ridiculous. Ask him why the Hindus are wrong and he is right



Ask him why he does not believe in Apollo or Horus



Ask him why "sin" is not an invention of the religious

.

Ask him if he has any testable evidence for souls, afterlives, heaven hell, the divinity of Jesus and the efficacy of the execution of Jesus for his supposed "salvation".



Now ask him why the Bible is not a composite of myths, a bit of history, unsupported assertions and the opinions of ancient religious people no different to himself.
biggalloot2003
2013-11-26 04:50:55 UTC
You trust your kids to a pastor? Are you nuts?



Anyway ask what kind of god you would invent, and remember, it would have to appeal to the stupid.
2013-11-26 06:18:49 UTC
beware lots of these pastors r genuine child molestors !!!

keep yr kid safe
cragar6040
2013-11-26 06:17:19 UTC
While "YUP" answered this very nicely....I suggest you get a copy of "What the bible really teaches" by Jehovahs Witnesses (get a free copy at jw.org).....trust me, when he sees you reading it....he will leave you alone. lol
?
2013-11-26 04:48:05 UTC
I've found that most Christians are completely unable to see the contradiction between knowing everything about God and God being beyond human comprehension. You can try, but good luck.
mt75689
2013-11-26 04:50:27 UTC
I suspect the problem is you. I think you could be misunderstanding what he said. Ask him for some clarification.Simply say, "I don't mean to sound rude, but what you have told me sounds like a contradiction. Could you make this more clear?"
?
2013-11-26 05:27:15 UTC
I've seen no contradiction
Slewin
2013-11-26 04:52:28 UTC
in a nice way sorry cant help ya damn some people are just to much



a catholic
2013-11-26 04:49:06 UTC
The best way I can think of would be to learn as much as possible about God yourself.

Then you'll be able to discuss Him intelligently.

Not saying you have to believe in Him...just get to know Who He is and what He is really all about.
Charlie
2013-11-26 04:50:47 UTC
BS. A pastor would not talk to you about what God hates. After that, you comment becomes just babble.
2013-11-26 05:26:20 UTC
You could give him this Bible-based information about hell, and see if he can refute it. Perhaps this will make him treat you better.

"Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain?

Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.” (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) (*“Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB; “the grave,” KJ, Kx; “hell,” Dy; “the world of the dead,” TEV.)

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish.” (*“Thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “schemes,” JB; “plans,” RS, TEV.)

Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body?

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.” (*“Soul,” KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx; “the man,” JB; “the person,” TEV.)

“The concept of ‘soul,’ meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the ‘body,’ . . . does not exist in the Bible.”—La Parole de Dieu (Paris, 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p. 128.

“Although the Hebrew word nefesh [in the Hebrew Scriptures] is frequently translated as ‘soul,’ it would be inaccurate to read into it a Greek meaning. Nefesh . . . is never conceived of as operating separately from the body. In the New Testament the Greek word psyche is often translated as ‘soul’ but again should not be readily understood to have the meaning the word had for the Greek philosophers. It usually means ‘life,’ or ‘vitality,’ or, at times, ‘the self.’”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1977), Vol. 25, p. 236.

What sort of people go to the Bible hell?

Does the Bible say that the wicked go to hell?

Ps. 9:17, KJ: “The wicked shall be turned into hell,* and all the nations that forget God.” (*“Hell,” 9:18 in Dy; “death,” TEV; “the place of death,” Kx; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

Does the Bible also say that upright people go to hell?

Job 14:13, Dy: “[Job prayed:] Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell,* and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?” (God himself said that Job was “a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad.”—Job 1:8.) (*“The grave,” KJ; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

Acts 2:25-27, KJ: “David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], . . . Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,* neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” (The fact that God did not “leave” Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades, at least for a time, does it not?) (*“Hell,” Dy; “death,” NE; “the place of death,” Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” AS, RS, JB, NW.)

Does anyone ever get out of the Bible hell?

Rev. 20:13, 14, KJ: “The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.) (*“Hell,” Dy, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” NE, AS, RS, JB, NW.)

Why is there confusion as to what the Bible says about hell?

“Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.

Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: (1) The King James Version rendered she’ohl′ as “hell,” “the grave,” and “the pit”; hai′des is therein rendered both “hell” and “grave”; ge′en·na is also translated “hell.” (2) Today’s English Version transliterates hai′des as “Hades” and also renders it as “hell” and “the world of the dead.” But besides rendering “hell” from hai′des it uses that same translation for ge′en·na. (3) The Jerusalem Bible transliterates hai′des six times, but in other passages it translates it as “hell” and as “the underworld.” It also translates ge′en·na as “hell,” as it does hai′des in two instances. Thus the exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured.

Is there eternal punishment for the wicked?

Matt. 25:46, KJ: “These shall go away into everlasting punishment [“lopping off,” Int; Greek, ko′la·sin]: but the righteous into life eternal.” (The Emphatic Diaglott reads “cutting-off” instead of “punishment.” A footnote states: “Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;—hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.”)

2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)

Jude 7, KJ: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyed”; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)

What is the meaning of the ‘eternal torment’ referred to in Revelation?

Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10, KJ: “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment [Greek, basa·ni·smou′] ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

What is the ‘torment’ to which these texts refer? It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to ‘prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.’ Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Eccl. 9:5, KJ) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image” will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.” So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek ba′sa·nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’—RS, AT, ED, NW.


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
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