A question for atheists?

Question

What do you think about the early Christians who allowed themselves to be tortured and executed for their belief in Jesus being the Son of God? Were they all deluded as well? I'll explain.

No honest person who studies history can deny that Jesus' disciples and many early Christians were tortured and crucified for their belief in Jesus. Read a book called "Fox's Book of Martyrs" and it tells of the true stories of men, women and children who were tortured and executed for their faith In Jesus. Now this is what I want you to think about:

Jesus made it clear to his disciples that he would rise from the dead. The Bible tells us that he appeared to them for 40 days--this was after he was raised from the dead. But many years later his disciples, except the apostle John, were executed for their faith. Some were beheaded and some were crucifed etc. Now if Jesus did not keep his promise and did not rise from the dead then why on earth would his disciples go through with all that torture and execution?

If Jesus did not rise from the dead then his disciples would have lost faith. But many years later they were willing to suffer torture and death. Do you not know how painful and brutal the romans were in those days when crucifying people? Jesus' disciples and the early Christians must have truly believed that Jesus was who he claimed to be to go through all that torture and execution.

Some people might say, what about muslims who blow themselves up. Well, the Qur'an teaches them that if they die by killing their enemies, that basically it will feel no worse than an insect bite. Thats not the same as being tortured and crucified and left to die a slow painful death. And secondly, with muslims who die to kill their enemies, it's about war and killing your enemies. These people who died for Jesus was based on their faith, nothing to do with killing their enemies, so there is a big difference.

A fairy tale made up by men could never get thousands of people to go through torture and crucifiction. No fairy tale made up by men could survive and influence people thousands of years later. Atheists ignore the historical evidence for the Bible and they ignore the Bible prophecies that have proved to be true generation after generation.

Answer 1

What about millions of Jews who were persecuted, tortured, killed and had their properties confiscated for refusing to convert to Christianity? In comparison, did the Jews suffer more?

Moreover, the Jews knew their Torah well, and knew that Jesus failed on most of the important requirements for the prophesied messiah (from the Hebrew's Torah itself), and they knew a fabricated myth when they saw one and refused to be coerced into submission for a fabricated belief.



Which of the 12 disciples were tortured? Why was Jesus' 4 brothers' genealogies not traceable? Easy to fabricate a lie on the myth of Jesus, but hard to support a lie. If Jesus' link to David was claimed (though contradicting accounts between Luke and Matthew was noted), why was the descendants for the 4 brothers not traceable? Confucius existed 500 years before Jesus, yet his descendants could be traced to today, the 80th direct descendant being Kung Yu-jen and 2 million others worldwide. Only a myth will poof into thin air without supporting evidence. Moreover, the Jews kept meticulous records of any claimed messiah, but Jesus was not mentioned. Roman historical records did not mention Jesus.

Your faith compels you to believe god's creation from Genesis as the truth, but the earth is not 6000 years old. The Catholic Church's position accepts evolution as "the best Scientific explanation" for the origins of lives on Earth. While you can cling to your delusion, we progress onward.

Answer 2

"No honest person who studies history can deny that Jesus' disciples and many early Christians were tortured and crucified for their belief in Jesus."



So if we don't agree with you, we're dishonest, eh? Great line of thinking.



"Read a book called "Fox's Book of Martyrs" and it tells of the true stories of men, women and children who were tortured and executed for their faith In Jesus."



Opinions and conjecture are not irrefutable. There are MANY different opinions about the historical events of the Bible.



"Jesus made it clear to his disciples that he would rise from the dead. The Bible tells us that he appeared to them for 40 days--this was after he was raised from the dead. But many years later his disciples, except the apostle John, were executed for their faith. Some were beheaded and some were crucifed etc."



And upon what source besides the Bible does that claim rest?



"Now if Jesus did not keep his promise and did not rise from the dead then why on earth would his disciples go through with all that torture and execution?"



Just because you lack a proper explanation, that doesn't give you the prerogative to say "Oh, it's Jesus really, it actually happened!"



"If Jesus did not rise from the dead then his disciples would have lost faith. But many years later they were willing to suffer torture and death. Do you not know how painful and brutal the romans were in those days when crucifying people? Jesus' disciples and the early Christians must have truly believed that Jesus was who he claimed to be to go through all that torture and execution."



And how do you know it was upon Jesus that the disciples had faith? Anything BESIDES the Bible? Martyrdom wasn't purely Christocentric, there were martyrs of many, many causes. Who's to say they didn't die for another cause? It's possible to be motivated without a religious figure.



"with muslims who die to kill their enemies, it's about war and killing your enemies. These people who died for Jesus was based on their faith, nothing to do with killing their enemies, so there is a big difference."



Anyone who dies for a religious cause and kills others in doing so is in a highly morally grey area. But that does not mean that because we can esteem Christian martyrs more so than Muslim martyrs, that Christianity is a more noble cause. For all we know, the belief in Allah is so important that it means something more to commit a suicide bombing. Of course, this is just speaking from a morally relative point of view.



"A fairy tale made up by men could never get thousands of people to go through torture and crucifiction."



Oh yes it could. Do you know what the overwhelming response to the reading of H.G. Wells "War of the worlds" was on radio? It was mistaken for a real news broadcast; people thought there really were Martians invading, and there were many, many suicides, mass fear and mass panic. Even something that is fictitious can cause much controversy. Of course, I'm not saying this is necesarily fictitious, rather that your premise for supposing the Bible is true is incorrect.



"No fairy tale made up by men could survive and influence people thousands of years later."



The fact that something has survived throughout the ages does not make it necesarily any more true. If that were so, we should praise slavery and oppression of women. And we should reject modern methods of surgery and anaesthesia, because they are new. So that premise is also incorrect.



"Atheists ignore the historical evidence for the Bible"



So far, you haven't shown any, so that's a useless statement.



"they ignore the Bible prophecies that have proved to be true generation after generation."



Show, please. And someone saying something will happen, then it happens a few centuries later, is not foresight, nor knowledge. It's a lucky guess. For instance, you toss a coin and say it will land on heads. It does so. Did you predict the output of the coin? No. Let's try another example. You say that a dictator will rise and enslave all of the united states of america. In 2310, September, a dictator rises and enslaves the U.S.A. You weren't a prophet, you merely said something and it happened. The Biblical "prophecies" hold about as much water as the prophecies of Nostradamus: they don't.



Do your research, source your claims, and smooth out the logical fallacies before you try and ask a question again.

Answer 3

First Jesus did not die, and so had no need to be resurrected. The bible is clear on that if you read it rather than regurgitate it.



Second, how many people were burned at the stake and tortured, the church was very good at torture, for believing other than the bible or even proving it as some of Galileo's contemporaries were burned at the stake for showing that the earth was not the center of the universe. Galileo had friends in high places or he would have been burned at the stake.



There is little historical evidence of the bible that wasn't plagiarized from the Sumerian tablets and they got most of that wrong.

Answer 4

And yet thousands of Gnostics, Jews and Cathars were tortured and killed for their faith and countless others have been killed because of their beliefs. Currently in Iran the Baha'i are being persecuted, denied education, losing jobs, having businesses seized, being arrested and beheaded and yet they don't convert to Islam. Your claim clearly does not apply only to your religion and many , if not all other religions can make the same claim.



In a different light, hundreds of thousands of soldiers have fought and died for what they believed was right as well as for their families and homes. Man of these were captured and tortured as prisoners of war. Your claim that only Christianity can inspire this sort of dedication is an insult to these men.



Any atheist that loses or gives their life to save or help others is paining a far greater price as they know there is no after life. Contrast this with Christians who if they are faced with death are deluded to thinking that they will live again, they have nothing to lose.



Simply, your argument is only effective if you have no knowledge of the world outside of your religion or swallow everything it claims as being true without thinking about it.

Answer 5

So naieve - unbelievable. So not only the Bible but now "Fox's Book of Martyrs" is full of true stories. My only question is "says who?". There are no Bible prophecies which have proven to be true - you people keep mentioning them but never give examples (and even if you did they would be pathetic). You just reinforce the idea that there is a connection between a lack of education (and intelligence) and being a believer. The apostles no doubt died for what they believed in - I doubt at that point they were actually given a choice. Just because they believed gives no more credibility to the story than you believing. As you knw, there is no historical evidence for the bible.

Answer 6

>>What do you think about the early Christians who allowed themselves to be tortured and executed for their belief in Jesus being the Son of God?



There is no accounting for what fanatics will do for a god.



In India, worshipers of Kali, will pierce themselves with hooks and allow them selves to be carried in parades.



They suffer no pain from this experience, in fact many claim a sort of euphoria during the experience.





>>Were they all deluded as well?



Yes.



>>A fairy tale made up by men could never get thousands of people to go through torture and crucifiction.



Yet through the ages, men and women have gladly suffered, offered themselves as sacrifices, and died, often at the hands of christians, for their gods.



You lie to your self, when you tell your self that only christians would do that.

Answer 7

No honest person who studies history can deny that many people, of many faiths, were put to death for what they believed in. The belife of something does not make it 'true' neither does the recording of a suffering, witnessed by others, make a true story.

If you delve a little deeper you will see that John became the first pope because he was such a weakling that he hid himself away until all trouble had passed, he in fact 'named' others so that they would suffer in death instead of him. Through this 'Judas' behaviour, he became the only person left behind of Jesus' disciples. You follow his beliefs' not Jesus'.

John was one of many con artists of those times, and those that followed. Atheists do not worship ignorance and weaklings!

Answer 8

Your argument here, which you plagarize from Josh McDowell's book "More Than a Carpenter" has been refuted and disproved many times..



What do you think about the Aztec people who suffered horrible self torture and sacrifice for their gods? Approximately 84,000 of them are recorded historically...they cut off their own body parts and threw them into the fire. Not only did they jump onto pyres of fire to prove their devotion, the also sacrificed their own children



The Mayans did the same...though not in numbers that high.



<< fairy tale made up by men could never get thousands of people to go through torture >>



Actually, it's happened quite often in history. Many pagans would not recant their beliefs when tortured as heretics by YOUR Chrisitan church..they were burned at the stake...sometimes suspended high above the flames so that they would roast slowly and not burn to death to quickly...since that would be you know...too good for them. Some of the men had their beards lit on fire so their faces would burn.



Men and women both had cotton or cloth stuck in their mouths and lit of fire because they would not convert to Chrisitanity.



So, by your reasoning, those Pagans were believing in the one true faith. You understand that the people who were persecuted for NOT believing in Christianity and suffered terrible torture for their beliefs (whether pagan or Islamic or various other sects) VASTLY outnumber the 1st and 2nd century Christians who were persecuted, don't you? If not, you have no sense of history.



The fact that a Christian uses an example of torture to VALIDATE his faith is sickening...your church tortured more people than any other through out history. And those people held on to their faith while you burned them, place them on racks, beat them, killed their children in front of them and did much worse than that.



And martyrdom is only proof of fanaticism. It is not proof of validity



Historical evidence for the bible is laughable.I studied Christian Theology for four years at Olivet Nazarene...that's what made me an atheist. Cite some "historical evidence" that hasn't be refuted.

Answer 9

Your question: why would someone allow themselves to be persecuted and martyred for a belief if they knew it wasn't true and the could simply renounce their belief to save himself?



My answer: People have done this for different beliefs throughout history. Modern cult leaders in the US have duped people into believing something then moved into isolated towns. Then they all drank poison and died together. Does their isolation and death for their belief make it true? No.



I think that when people dedicate themselves to something, whether it be religion, work, a marriage or anything else, it is very difficult for them to accept that it may be false or not worth their dedication for some reason. When you dedicate yourself to something, and you give up things, relationships, or time for it, you would lose a lot by turning your back on what you dedicated yourself to. At some point you would lose more by liberating yourself from what you've dedicated yourself to than by living a lie.



For example, a missionary. This person may have alienated family/friends by moving away. They've given up their society, and sometimes a lot more to do 'the will of God'. What if they decide their religion is not true? Is it easier to go home and face the truth or to convince yourself it is true and continue your mission? Sometimes it's easier to lie to yourself.

Answer 10

"A fairy tale made up by men could never get thousands of people to go through torture and crucifiction (sic). No fairy tale made up by men could survive and influence people thousands of years later."



So in essence, you are saying you also believe the Qu'ran to be a true and divine book? It has inspired the same devout belief, it's believers also willing to die for their beliefs. If you don't believe the Qu'ran to be a divine account, then please explain how it differs from the bible.

Answer 11

Yes, Christians were tortured and killed for their beliefs and that was terrible. Then they turned around, killed and tortured Pagans for their beliefs. Was that OK? Then, what's more, Christians have killed and tortured other Christians for not beleiving exactly the same way they did. Christians kill other Christians and everyone not a chirstian throughout history, for a couple thousand years now.

Answer 12

Since you've repeated your question, I'll repeat my answer.



"No honest person who studies history can deny that Jesus' disciples and many early Christians were tortured and crucified for their belief in Jesus"



Well, leaving aside the fact there is absolutely no historical evidence that Jesus was a real person, what do you have to say about the followers of David Koresh, or the many other cults who have committed mass suicide for their leader?



Or the Muslim suicide bombers who killed themselves for their religion?



What about the Islamic practice of beating themselves on the head until they bleed?



Does that mean their beliefs were true?

Answer 13

So what?

Ever heard of the greeks and pagans tortured for their faiths also?

The pagans wiped out by the early christian church?

The muslims killed in the crusades?

Please stop repeating the same question over and over without learning from the answers.

Answer 14

So according to your logic David Koresh, Jim Jones, Joseph Di Mambro, Marshall Applewhite, Charles Manson etc. must have all been Messiah's also, right?

Answer 15

We are NOT by any means denying that Jesus existed. I deny Mary's conception was immaculate, that he was magical, and that he was the son of God. People followed him because he was one of the first to say "Hey, you can answer to a higher power than the kings, you can answer to God." He first introduced the concept of God. You are completely wrong about the Qur'an. Research it.

Answer 16

You asked this same question just a few minutes ago. My same answer stands. I find it sad you think that this is convincing logic to support your beliefs.



https://answersrip.com/question/index?qid=20100724055814AA4T67M&show=7#profile-info-hr5T8E8maa



How can you not be aware that people of many different belief systems and ideologies have been willing to suffer and die for them irrespective of their validity? It proves they probably believed what they professed perhaps but not that its really so. I mean Muslim suicide bombers for Mohamed don't prove Islam is the truth to you do they? Or that David Koresh was really a prophet of god? I think those people believed stories they were told and it gave them a sense of identity and purpose. I don't think they had to personally see those things claimed to feel that as is evidenced by passionate followers of many contradictory religions today.

Answer 17

Jesus never existed and the people that were tortured in his name were tortured for no reason at all.

Answer 18

"A fairy tale made up by men could never get thousands of people to go through torture and crucifiction."



Tell that to Odin and Thor's dead followers.

Answer 19

Deluded? No,

gullible? Yes

with your logic greek and roman mythology must be true too.

how long did people believe the earth was flat?

islam has been around for a little over 1400 years

Judaism has been around longer but you claim these two aren't true.

ATHEISM has been around since the dawn of man but you deny the possibility there may not be a god



You've been touched by Imperfectionist

Answer 20

permit me get this immediately,you're asking questions of atheists and complaining while we answer? could some time no longer be greater constructive spent complaining relating to the non secular no longer answering once you ask questions of them? faith is backwards. i think of eighteen is your lot greater or much less

Answer 21

So you are back to this idiotic argument that if people are prepared to suffer a lot for their beliefs, they must be true.



A lady named Verity Linn starved herself to death to follow her belief that she could live on light.



Read this. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/453661.stm



Starving to death is, apparently very unpleasant. So do you accept her beliefs were true?

Answer 22

Yes, people believe in the things they believe in. But with so many people believing in so many contradictory things, I have to think that their belief doesn't constitute evidence that their belief is objectively true.

Answer 23

Excellent - why would anyone die for something that they knew was a sham and a fraud? They must have believed it to be genuine.







That being said, though, what about people (like Jim Jones') or Falun Gong who have died for their beliefs, too?

Answer 24

Don't try to force your belief on others. Same reason why there are 56 religious wars worldwide.

Answer 25

just because they believed it and suffered for it doesn't make it any more true i could die in the name of the flying spaghetti monster, doesn't mean it exists

Answer 26

Spamming this question makes baby Jesus cry.

Answer 27

Squeaky Fromm is still in jail because she won't say Charlie Manson isn't God.



So????



And so you know, there is no evidence that even happened.

Answer 28

Shup and do your homework on the origins of today's bible and it's reliability

Answer 29

Shutup. That's what.

Answer 30

I read most of the Early Church Fathers' writings and THEY HARDLY MENTION ANY PERSECUTION... THEY WERE VERY BUSY PUTTING TOGETHER CHRISTIANITY to worry about any report of some CHristians fed to the lions for not paying taxes to the Roman authorities...



In fact the EARLY CHURCHG FATHERS thought hat the Earth was OVERPOPULATED!!! and that the world population had to be cut back...



Saint Paul took the lead teaching the Christians in Corinth, Greece about the virtues of “virginity”/singleness versus the troubles of marriage. To Christian women Saint Paul is saying that apart from keeping their mouth shut in Church (1Cor14:34-35) their salvation is in PREGNANCY, but he also flips saying that VIRGINITY is the way to go! That’s the typical Bible inconsistency at work! The Corinthian Christians were known to be the most sexually permissive people in the world. Saint Paul’s “grace” bit broke all taboo barriers for them.



1 Corinthians 5:1-2 (NIV) It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of A KIND THAT DOES NOT OCCUR EVEN AMONG THE HEATHEN: A man has his father's wife* (*this is Bible verbiage meaning a young teenage boy having sexual intercourse with his own mother. The same goes for “women who slept with men” meaning “pregnant women”). And you are proud!



In view of the above, Saint Paul is prescribing UNMARRIED STATUS FOR MEN as a better way of pleasing God.



1 Corinthians 7:1-2 (NIV) Now for the matters you wrote about* (*this is still the same Church that was proud of a young guy having sexual intercourse with his own mother!): It is good for a man not to marry* (*Saint Paul is on record moving away from God’s original idea about MARRIAGE to be fruitful and multiply!) But since there is so much immorality* (*especially in this Church full of the Holy Ghost and of ALL THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT!), each man should have* (*”SHOULD HAVE” this is not a Church dogma, but a suggestion if you get it! Like many Preachers do) his own wife, and each woman her own husband* (*It is a clear clue that in this Church men and women were SWINGING and SWAPPING spouses without any restriction. Saint Paul is still SUGGESTING that everybody SHOULD use their own spouse for sex!).



1 Corinthians 7:37-38 (NIV) But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin--this man also does the right thing. So then, he who marries the virgin does right, BUT HE WHO DOES NOT MARRY HER DOES EVEN BETTER* (*Right so! Why marry a virgin when an experienced girl is known to be much more fun!).



At the end of the first century Saint Ignatius was the 3rd bishop in the church of Antioch, the official birthplace of Christianity he has already reported with pride the existence of “virgins” in his Church. The Early Church Fathers did not hesitate to create a new set of rules and regulations to safeguard this new Holy fetish. MEMBERS OF THE CLERGY WERE KNOWN TO SLEEP WITH THE VIRGIN GIRLS TO “PROTECT” THEIR VIRGINITY! Preachers today do it only in the closet.



THE EPISTLES OF BISHOP SAINT CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE



http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050702.htm



EPISTLE 61 - To Pomponius, Concerning Some Virgins.

2)… both their weak sex and their age, still critical, ought to be bridled in all things AND RULED BY US* (under total Clergy and Preacher control!), lest an occasion should be given to the devil…

4) And therefore you have acted advisedly and with vigor, dearest brother, in excommunicating the deacon who has OFTEN ABODE WITH A VIRGIN; and, moreover, the OTHERS WHO HAD BEEN USED TO SLEEP WITH VIRGINS* (*some faithful MEN of the Church!). But if they have repented of this their unlawful lying together, and have mutually withdrawn from one another* (*discretion is the new rule!), let the virgins meantime BE CAREFULLY INSPECTED by midwives;* (*OH YESSSS!) and if they should be found virgins, let them be received to communion, and admitted to the Church…



The Blessed Virgin Mary was thoroughly INSPECTED by Saint Salome after giving birth to God the Son Jesus to verify that her virginity was still intact! Virgin girls were target of a lot of attention by the Early Church Fathers. Unless the girl of questionable virgin status was willing to “spread her legs” for a meticulous exam she wouldn’t be admitted in the Church membership or allowed to partake of the Holy Communion!



THE PROTEVANGELIUM OF SAINT JAMES

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm

19. And the midwife went forth out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to thee: a virgin has brought forth a thing which her nature admits not of. Then said Salome: As the Lord my God liveth, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the **** parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.

20. And the midwife went in, and said to Mary: Show thyself* (*spread thy legs, Thou Blessed of the LORD!), for no small controversy has arisen about thee. And Salome put in her finger, and cried out, and said: Woe is me for mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God; and, behold, my hand is dropping off as if burned with fire* (*She must have gotten real excited using her whole hand in search of the hallowed hymen! In her excitement she almost destroys the paramount evidence of Mary’s virginity! God the Holy Spook had to slap her hand. But, relax all ye Christians, she fully recovered!).



The Early Church Fathers go on to explain the real reason of Saint Paul's virginity doctrine that is obviously contrary to God the Father’s “Be Fruitful and Multiply!” It has to do with the EARTH'S OVERPOPULATION. 2,000 Years ago, at the onset of Christianity, overpopulation was a MAJOR CHRISTIAN CONCERN! It is a shame that no preacher is willing to release this kind of information to their tithe paying parishioners!



By the end of the second century Bishop Saint Cyprian of Carthage ALREADY DECLARED THAT THE EARTH IS OVERPOPULATED! Abortion and homosexuality was not the issue in those days. In the Roman Empire as well as in the Bible stories, unwanted children were exterminated at will and without any accountability to anyone. Some of the Early Church Fathers were promoting TOTAL virginity UNDER THE WATCHFUL EYE OF THE CLERGY!



SAINT CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE

Treatise 2 - On the Dress of Virgins.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050702.htm

23. The first decree* (*Old Testament) commanded to increase and to multiply; the second* (*New Testament) enjoined continence. While the world is still rough and void, we are propagated by the fruitful begetting of numbers, and we increase to the enlargement of the human race. Now, WHEN THE WORLD IS FILLED AND THE EARTH SUPPLIED, they who can receive continence, living after the manner of eunuchs, ARE MADE EUNUCHS UNTO THE KINGDOM!* (*Just like Jesus was teaching! No small wonder that the Early Church Fathers NEVER EVER hinted that gays were a problem!)



All the above documentation points to the fact that Christianity is a made up religion as you go full of bigotry! The Clergy create whimsical dogmas regardless of what the Bible writers had to say on any subject! No wonder Saint Paul prohibits any lady from speaking up in Church (1Cor14:34-35)! He felt that the Church ought to be run by men only. Christians sing spiritual songs in honor of the Faith of the Early Church Fathers, but hardly any of them know what they stood for.

Answer 31

Seek & you will find the answers. And obviously you did.

great insights great day

jerry

Answer 32

Atheism is wrong.