Question:
catholics.....?
joe citizen
2007-02-14 08:33:21 UTC
how can you justify praying to the "saints" when we are to pray only to JESUS? how can you justify the graven images and idols in your "churches"? how can you justify your repeated prayers(hail marys and goobity gob)? how can you justify having your own bible per say?
how can you blatantly go against the word of CHRIST and call yourselves christian? who is the "father"? to you its every priest and all the popes. we have but one and its GOD. through his son JESUS are we to pray. only HE can forgive our sins not your priests.
how many popes in the past have ordered the execution of true christians? how many lives have ben corrupted by the influence of the roman catholic churches?
are these the actions of the christian religion? is the acceptance of homosexuality and child molestations? LOL i think not. GOD will not change his laws because you feel you are right. hell is filled with people with good intentions.
embrasing the nwo is the objective of your pope. not JESUS.
Twenty answers:
2007-02-15 04:23:55 UTC
Thank you

I love it when an asker causes the cath-licks to studder(extra long answers). Be aware they are wanting to drown you with their mire and muck.



http://www.usccb.org/nazipope-pee/mens



With love of them sweet cath-lick mens, cause imacatholictwo
promethius9594
2007-02-15 20:43:36 UTC
ahow can you justify praying to the "saints" when we are to pray only to JESUS?

The bible does not say that we are to pray only to Jesus, in fact, Jesus' prayer is to God the Father, so there are prayers that do NOT go through Jesus. The statement is that Jesus is the sole mediator of salvation between God and Man... The catholic church has never denied this, and praying to ask the saints to pray on our behalf does not remove the fact that all good things come from God through Jesus.



how can you justify the graven images and idols in your "churches"?

There are no Idols in a catholic church. And the commandment against graven images is against those images being WORSHIPED.... something which catholics do not do. If you have a photo in your livingroom, you have a graven image, if you do not worship it, then you're not in violation of the commandment... by the same rote, the catholic church never worships an image.





how can you justify your repeated prayers(hail marys and goobity gob)?

There is nothing in the bible against repetitions of prayers... What Jesus says is not to BABBLE incoherently. I once listened to a protestant pastor trying lead a prayer, and he used the words "Lord," "God," and "Jesus" 450 times in the space of three minutes (I counted and kept track on my watch, it was amazing). THAT my friend, is babbling incoherently like the Pagans on the street corners... Catholics believe that prayer is expressed inwardly through the soul, and that the prayer is a focal point for the expression of true prayer.



how can you justify having your own bible per say?

The catholic bible was compiled in the fourth century to include the entire septuigant. At a later time the Jewish church rejected (without reason) the Greek Texts of the septuigant, since when the temple burned down there was no longer a way to verify their lineage. The protestants came along more than 1,100 years later and removed these texts from the Old testament... Because the bible contained all of these scriptures for 1,500 years, perhaps protestantism should be asked why THEY created their own bible.



how can you blatantly go against the word of CHRIST and call yourselves christian?

Nothing the Catholic church does is against the word of Christ.



who is the "father"?

Here it becomes clear that you are not familiar with Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew. There were multiple words for the word "father" in that day (just as there are now). The commandment would more accurately be stated "call no man DIVINE father." This would more accurately reflect the meaning of the words used in their original context since the word father today bears little to no resemblance to the word used in the Bible. Recall, the commandment to "Honor thy father and thy mother." This is a double edged sword, either we recognize that earthly males can be called father, or we recognize that God is the ONLY person who can be called father, which means Mary truly is the Mother of God and then mother to us all. I think you'd rather take the first choice in this case, so let's just call the "father" point moot.



only HE can forgive our sins not your priests.

>priests don't forgive sins, they hear confessions and Jesus forgives sins



how many popes in the past have ordered the execution of true christians?

Popes do not order executions. The inquisitions are subject to the office of inquisition AND the spanish inquisition, which is the inquisition of historical infamy, was actually started by the spanish monarchy and ENDED by the pope. Other inquisitions were to stop the cathars, who were the midievil equivalent of today's al quaeda



is the acceptance of homosexuality and child molestations?

The catholic church accepts niether of these things, so what is your point?
2007-02-14 17:53:32 UTC
Catholics routinely pray in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and we make the sign of the cross to acknowledge the redemptive work of Jesus, our savior and our mediator, so our prayers are most certainly directed to the right persons.



And since the saints in heaven are alive and of God, just as are some earthly saints, there is absolutely no prohibition against asking a favor of another brother or sister in Christ, no matter where they might presently reside.



In this, the saints are not made out to be gods, but they are certainly respected as elders, and spiritual role models for the faithful.



As for accepting anything that is sinful ... you're way off base. The Catholic Church has been fighting against sin, in all it's many forms, since the time of Christ, and even before Pentecost.



Your statement about only God being able to forgive sins is rooted in the old testament alone. The first thing Jesus did after he rose from the dead was to share that power with his apostles. The sacrament of reconciliation has always been a part of the true church, and it will always be.



The failures in the church are the failures of individual sinners, much as Judas' failure was his own, and was not to be blamed on Jesus or the apostles.



Much like the Jews before you, it is your late, artificially conceived, protestant faith traditions that blind you to the truth of Catholic teachings and beliefs, which will always remain the authentic teachings of Jesus and the apostles, faithfully handed down to us, for the purpose of our salvation.



Come out of that strange, incomplete, and cleverly crafted system of beliefs you choose to practice, and embrace the fullness of all God's truth and grace, which can only be obtained within the Catholic Church.
RobotoMR
2007-02-14 16:41:28 UTC
Everything the catholic church (the original church, with the "original" bible, by the way) does has been derived from the Bible.



You can pray to whoever you want to. It's been made clear that Mary and the other saints are holy and have a special place in heaven and are capable of listening to prayers and providing inspiration.





I also question your equating homosexuality with child molestations. One is a practice between two consenting adults, the other harms an innocent victim. That's like saying that straight-oral sex and murder are on equal levels of "wrong doing".



Every single argument you make could easily be turned around and applied to whatever religion you obviously blindly follow.
?
2007-02-14 16:46:21 UTC
I have had conversations with many roman Catholics. Most either don't know the bible at all. OR completely make up things so that their contraditons from the bible are "OK".

Example: Jesus's brothers that are listed were his cousin's or from Joseph's previous marriage. We have at least one early church father that acknowledged Jesus had brothers named Eucebius-sp? What was an historian.

Or they add one lie then that leads to another lie;

Example: Mary was sinless, so her mother must have been a virgin when she had her by the holy spirit like Jesus and since she didn't sin she was taken up to heaven without dieing because sinless people don't die.

The list goes on and on. And none of this is biblical.

These have chosen to believe these lies because they are not lovers of the truth OR they'd rather go with their tradition over truth.

It's very sad. Many are leaving the RCC. We have many in my church which is "Christian".

4HIM- Christians love
2007-02-14 16:55:02 UTC
Hello Joe, I am not Catholic but, I know that it is not our business how someone else worships God. The definition of a Christian is one who has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, has repented of their sin and follows Him.



Religion, is man's way of trying to please God. Jesus, is God's way of reaching down to man.



You and I believe that our Father is God. We both probably believe that all Christians are priests. And we both probably are confused at times about what God expects of us. However, this is not what saves us.





Many of us cling to religion rather than Jesus Himself. Many of us cling to believing that we can save ourselves by the works that we do.



The blood of Jesus is what has saved us. Can we leave it up to Jesus as to who is His follower? Can we allow Jesus and God's written word, the Bible to teach us all through love?
House Speaker
2007-02-15 00:31:07 UTC
Why does the Catholic Church encourage its members to pray for the dead?



The Scriptures very strictly forbid any attempt to summon the spirits of the dead or to try to engage them in conversation mention in Leviticus 19:31 and 20:6, as well as 1 Samuel 28.



The souls of the dead, saint and sinner alike, are not active but quiescent.



In Psalm 115:17 it says “The dead cannot sing praises to the Lord, for they have gone into the silence of the grave.”



In Psalm 6:5 it says “For there is no mention of You in death; In Sheol who will give You thanks?”



In Psalm 31:17 it says “Don't let me be disgraced, O LORD, for I call out to you for help. Let the wicked be disgraced; let them lie silent in Sheol.”
LineDancer
2007-02-15 22:40:45 UTC
True Christians don't pray to the saints or Jesus. At Matt. 6:9, Jesus instructed: "OUR FATHER in the heavens, let your name be sanctified..." You can't get more plain than that!
2007-02-14 16:42:53 UTC
How can we answer questions from people that hate us? Would you listen or read if we did? I would pray for you to gain understanding but apparently that would considered idolatrous by you since only Jesus can intercede in any way. That is what you said right?
2007-02-14 16:46:47 UTC
The real question here may be how can you justify your judgmental attitude when Jesus ask that we judge not.



Can you be a follower of Jesus and do the exact opposite of what he taught us?



I don't think so.



Love and blessings Don
cashelmara
2007-02-17 04:20:43 UTC
Well, I’m sure you know the Bible better than I do, so tell me—does it say somewhere in the Bible that we shouldn’t confess our sins to a man? That we should confess our sins to God alone?



Well, if we’re not supposed to confess our sins to men, I’m a little confused. Maybe you can explain this to me. Doesn’t James 5:16 tell us that we are to confess are sins to men? And, in Matthew 9:8, why does God give the authority on earth to forgive sins to men if we are supposed to confess our sins to God alone?Read Matthew 9:8.....What does that mean?



The Catholic Church teaches that both faith and works play a role in our salvation. But I think you believe in salvation by faith alone, right? Where in the Bible does it say that we are saved by faith alone?



What it says in the Bible speaks of belief in Christ or "faith." Catholics believe we are saved by faith, and our understanding of faith means that we believe Jesus is God, and, therefore, we trust what he says and we do as he asks, which demonstrates our love for him. That’s biblical (Matt. 5:48; 19:16–17; John 14:21; Gal. 5:5–6). But nowhere does the Bible say that we are saved by faith "alone."



If we are saved by faith alone, then do we need to love in order to be saved? If so, then we are not saved by faith alone, are we? We are saved by faith and love—which Catholics refer to as faith working through love (cf. Gal. 5:6). If a person says we do not need love in order to be saved, then he is saying we can get to heaven without loving God or our fellow man—a patently ridiculous position to take. Also, if faith alone saves us, faith without love, why does 1 Corinthians 13:13 say that love is greater than faith? After all, if salvation is the greatest thing we can achieve, and it is by faith alone that we achieve salvation, then faith should be greater than love. But the Bible says differently.



Source(s):



CATHOLIC
?
2007-02-14 16:49:38 UTC
You are very anti Catholic to make assumptions like that. Are you related to David T?
Crazy Bi Chick
2007-02-14 16:41:54 UTC
Dude...it's called Prozac...get you some quick.



WOW



You are action packed with issues!



Are you that albino from the Divinci Code?
eldad9
2007-02-14 16:43:40 UTC
You're basically arguing "how can your religion be different from mine? It's different, so it's wrong!".



Newsflash: Other people think their religion is right and yours is wrong, and it doesn't matter how many WORDS you capitalize.



Why not switch to their religion, or better yet, drop religion altogether?
Basilio
2007-02-14 17:20:16 UTC
You need to understand that our relationship to God is not just personal, it is also one of family. Covenant with God is one of Family. God wants to have a family. Scriptures tell us of this family in its explanation of the Vine and the branches. Take note that nowhere in scriptures does it say that we are disconnected from our loved ones after we die victorious. Here are scripture support:

I. We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth

Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family ("Catholic") in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the "communion of saints." There cannot be a "communion" if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.

Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.

1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.

1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!

Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated. The “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) refers to a great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners (us on earth), and many tiers of seats occupied by the saints (in heaven) rising up like a cloud. The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai”), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven.

1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.

2 Peter 1:4 - since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.

1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:

Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called "saints."

Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that "saints" also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.

It is not the actual making of statues that constitutes idolatry but the worship of statues or anything else other than God. God himself commanded the use of statues in 1 Kings 6.



Jesus repeated prayers in the garden of Gethsamane. He prayed the ‘selfsame words’. It is not the repetition of prayers that is condemned per se but the vain repetition of prayer – prayers that are empty. I have heard born-again Christians speak in tongues that use the same ‘verbage’ over and over. If you read Revelations you can see that in the heavenly realms, words are repeated over and over in worship.

The books in dispute are ones in the OT. But take note that Catholics use the same old testament as Christ and the apostles. The canon used by Christm the apostles and early Christians is the Septuagint (46 books) which is the Greek canon, and the official canon of the jews from 90 AD is the Hebrew canon. Before that there were 2 jewish canons of the OT. Bottom line, the Septuagint has been unanimously used by Christians since the time of Christ. Only during the reformation did reformers favor the Hebrew canon over the greek and ancient Christian canon. In essence, protestants removed 7 books from the original Christian canon.



Here are links that might help you:

www.catholic.com

www.catholic-convert.com

www.scripturecatholic.com



God Bless
Phoenix, Wise Guru
2007-02-14 16:38:52 UTC
Blah, blah, blah. Like YOUR religion is any less ridiculous.
XX
2007-02-14 16:42:30 UTC
how can you justify praying to a dead man when you should pray to GOD?
missgigglebunny
2007-02-14 16:37:14 UTC
ok. Take a break from being so religious.
imacatholic2
2007-02-15 05:02:11 UTC
Sorry if this is a long answer but you asked a lot of questions.



+++ Saints +++



Before Jesus Christ died for our sins and opened the gates of heaven there were no saints in heaven. Therefore there are no Old Testament writings that would mention them.



Very few of the new Christians died before most of the New Testament was written. Therefore there is little in the Bible about asking saints to pray for us.



However the last book of the Bible does talk about the saints in heaven praying.



Revelation 5:8: Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.



Revelation 8:3-4: He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.



The Holy Spirit guided the early Church in many things not explained in the Bible including how does the Body of Christ (believers) living on Earth relate to the Body of Christ (saints) living in heaven. We are still one Body.



Catholics share the belief in the Communion of Saints with many other Christians, including the Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Episcopal, and Methodist Churches.



The Communion of Saints is the belief where all saints are intimately related in the Body of Christ, a family. When you die and go to heaven, you do not leave this family.



Everyone in heaven or on their way to heaven are saints, you, me, my deceased grandmother, Mary the mother of Jesus, and Mother Teresa.



As part of this family, you may ask your family and friends living here on earth to pray for you. Or, you may also ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, Saint Andrew, or your deceased grandmother living in heaven to pray for you.



Prayer to saints in heaven is simple communication, not worship.



http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p5.htm#946



+++ Graven Images +++



Do you have pictures of your loved ones?



Statues and pictures of people we love are not idols.



Statues and paintings of Jesus and the saints are just like pictures of the people we love and respect.



The King James Version of the Bible states in Exodus 20:4: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"



Why were the Jews commanded not to make graven images? Graven images were the standard method of pagan worship. They were representations of false gods.



This is a very clear command.



However God commanded the Jews in Exodus 25:18 and 1 Chronicles 28:18–19, "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them"



And in 1 Kings chapter 7 Solomon made bulls and other images out of precious metals.



It seems obvious that the Jews did not worship the cherubims and Solomon did not worship the bulls he had made. These images did not violate the command of God. Therefore, an image not made for worship is acceptable.



In Numbers 21:8-9, "And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover." Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze serpent, he recovered."



And in John 3:14-15, Jesus says in correlation, "And just as Moses lifted up the [image of a] serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."



How can a statue of our Lord Jesus Christ dead on the cross be considered an idol to a false god? A crucifix is the message of the Gospel without words held up for all to see, a visual reminder of the sacrifice of Jesus, no different from a painting, a play, or a movie.



Catholics do not worship statues but the almighty God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.



+++ Repeated Prayers +++



Catholicism includes a rich tradition of both informal (in our own words) and formal prayer just like our Jewish forefathers.



The Church teaches "the memorization of basic prayers offers an essential support to the life of prayer, but it is important to help learners savor their meaning." In other words, the Church emphasizes that formal prayer should not be mindless lip moving but instead a formal expression of clearly understood and heartfelt sentiments.



The verse in question reads, in the King James Version, "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."



The important Greek word here for "vain repetitions" is battalogeo, or babbling. The heathens had a magical perception of prayer and thought the more they babbled to their gods, the more that that god would respond. I Kings 18:26 is an example of this:



"And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered."



Then, two verses after the warning in Matthew against "vain repetitions," Jesus gave us the "Lord's" prayer, which most Protestant Christians pray with no qualms about praying "in vain."



The same command in Luke 11:2 reads: "And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father..." -- "when you pray, say..."



In addition, Christ prayed in repetitions:

+ Matthew 26:44: "And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words."

+ Mark 14:39 reads: "And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words."



The angels pray repetitiously:

+ Revelation 4:8: "...and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come."



God commanded Moses to tell the Israelites:



"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up." (Deuteronomy 6:4-7)



The Psalms are a collection of prayers and litanies, which were prayed formally in the Jewish synagogues and early Christian churches, are still prayed in synagogues and Catholic churches today -- and were even prayed by Christ from the Cross.



The liturgy of the synagogue was (and is) filled with repetition and formalized prayer. Christ said "use not vain repetitions, as the heathens do.” Were the Jews heathens? Jesus also prayed in the synagogue in this way.



They prayed (and still pray) the sh'ma twice a day and, in their liturgy, the Shemoneh Esrei, the Kaddish, the morning blessings, the Aleinu, etc. Check out a Jewish siddur (missal) sometime; does it look more typically Protestant or Catholic?



Hymns are prayers. Is it "vain" to sing "Amazing Grace" more than once?



Catholics do not babble but pray from the heart in formal and informal prayer.



http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt4sect1.htm



+++ Catholic vs Protestand Bible +++



The New Testament canon of the Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible are the same with 27 Books.



The difference in the Old Testaments actually goes back to the time before and during Christ’s life. At this time, there was no official Jewish canon of scripture.



The Jews in Egypt translated their choices of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek in the second century before Christ. This translation of 46 books, called the Septuagint, had wide use in the Roman world because most Jews lived far from Palestine in Greek cities. Many of these Jews spoke only Greek.



The early Christian Church was born into this world. The Church, with its bilingual Jews and more and more Greek-speaking Gentiles, used the books of the Septuagint as its Bible. Remember the early Christians were just writing the documents what would become the New Testament.



After the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, with increasing persecution from the Romans and competition from the fledgling Christian Church, the Jewish leaders came together and declared its official canon of Scripture, eliminating seven books from the Septuagint.



The books removed were Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom (of Solomon), Sirach, and Baruch. Parts of existing books were also removed including Psalm 151 (from Psalms), parts of the Book of Esther, Susanna (from Daniel as chapter 13), and Bel and the Dragon (from Daniel as chapter 14).



The Christian Church did not follow suit but kept all the books in the Septuagint. 46 + 27 = 73 Books total.



1500 years later, Protestants decided to keep the Catholic New Testament but change its Old Testament from the Catholic canon to the Jewish canon. The books they dropped are sometimes called the Apocrypha.



Here is a Catholic Bible website: http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/



+++ Call no man father +++



Matthew 23:6-9 reads, "They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation 'Rabbi.' As for you, do not be called 'Rabbi.' You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers. Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven."



Are we also not to call anyone "teacher" or "doctor" which is how "rabbi' would translate?



This is call for humility for those in leadership roles. Not to be taken literally.



We are not to deny our male parent and cut the Commandment to honor our father and mother in half.



Some leaders in any church may fall into the same folly as the pharisees of Jesus' day.



+++ Forgiveness of Sins +++



The Catholic Church believes that "Only God forgives sin."



When a penitent person asks God for forgiveness, his (or her) sins are immediately forgiven.



Catholics also believe that when someone sins they not only hurt their relationship with God, they also injure the entire church, the body of Christ.



Jesus said, "I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Matthew 16:19)



And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them,"Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained." (Luke 20:22-23)



The Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation with a priest ordained in the name of Jesus Christ not only reconciles the sinner to God but with the entire church, including you and me.



http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt2.htm



+ With love in Christ.
2007-02-14 16:48:04 UTC
Since you seem to like Scripture so much:



I. We are One Family in Christ in Heaven and on Earth



Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family ("Catholic") in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the "communion of saints." There cannot be a "communion" if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.



Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.



1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.



Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.



Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.



Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.



Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.



John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.



1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.



1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.



1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!



Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated. The “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) refers to a great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners (us on earth), and many tiers of seats occupied by the saints (in heaven) rising up like a cloud. The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai”), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven.



1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.



2 Peter 1:4 - since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.



1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:



Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called "saints."



Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that "saints" also refer to those in heaven who united with us.



Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.



II. God Desires and Responds to Our Subordinate Mediation / Intercessory Prayer



1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?



1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.



1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).



1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ's work because we are God's "fellow workers" and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe "fellow workers" is "sunergoi," which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.



Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord "worked with them" ("sunergountos"). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.



Rom. 8:28 - God "works for good with" (the Greek is "sunergei eis agathon") those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.



2 Cor. 6:1 - "working together" (the Greek is "sunergountes") with him, don't accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.



Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.



1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ's work of redemption.



Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God's people.



James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.



1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.



III. Specific Instructions to Mediate and Examples of Subordinate Mediation



New Testament

Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.



Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.



Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints – and He obviously would not have been worshiping them in so doing – then so can we, who need their help infinitely more than Jesus, and without engaging in idolatry. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.



Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.



Matt. 27:52-53 - at Jesus' passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and presumably interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.



Mark 11:24 - Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate.



John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary's intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.



John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.



John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary's intercession that started Jesus' ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary's intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.



Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.



Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.



2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other's prayers.



2 Cor. 9:14 - Paul says that the earthly saints pray for the Corinthians. They are subordinate mediators in Christ.



2 Cor. 13:7,9 - Paul says the elders pray that the Corinthians may do right and improve. They participate in Christ's mediation.



Gal. 6:2,10 - Paul charges us to bear one another's burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith.



Eph. 6:18 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.



Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?



Phil. 1:19 - Paul acknowledges power of Philippians' earthly intercession. He will be delivered by their prayers and the Holy Spirit.



Col. 1:3 - Paul says that he and the elders pray for the Colossians. They are subordinate mediators in the body of Christ.



Col. 1:9 - Paul says that he and the elders have not ceased to pray for the Colossians, and that, by interceding, they may gain wisdom.



Col. 4:4 - Paul commands the Colossians to pray for the elders of the Church so that God may open a door for the word. Why doesn't Paul just leave it up to God? Because subordinate mediation is acceptable and pleasing to God, and brings about change in the world. This is as mysterious as the Incarnation, but it is true.



1 Thess. 5:11 - Paul charges us to encourage one another and build one another up, in the body of Christ. We do this as mediators in Christ.



1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul says "pray constantly." If Jesus' role as mediator does not apply subordinately to us, why pray at all?



1 Thess. 5:25 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for the elders of the Church. He desires our subordinate mediation.



2 Thess. 1:11 - Paul tells the family of God that he prays for us. We participate in Christ's mediation because Christ desires this.



2 Thess. 3:1 - Paul asks the Thessalonians to pray for Him, Silvanus and Timothy so that they may be delivered.



1 Tim. 2:1-3 - Paul commands us to pray for all. Paul also states that these prayers are acceptable in the sight of God.



2 Tim. 1:3 – Paul says “I remember you constantly in my prayers.”



Philemon 22 - Paul is hoping through Philemon's intercession that he may be able to be with Philemon.



Heb. 1:14 – the author writes, “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?”



Hebrews 13:18-19 - the author strongly urges the Hebrews to pray for the elders so that they act desirably in all things.



James 5:14-15- James says the prayer of the priests over the sick man will save the sick man and forgive his sins. This is a powerful example of men forgiving sins and bringing a person to salvation with the sacrament of the sick.



James 5:16 - James instructs us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we may be healed.



James 5:17-18 - James refers to God's response to Elijah's fervent prayer for no rain. He is teaching us about the effectiveness of our earthly mediation.



1 John 5:14-15 - John is confident that God will grant us anything we ask of God according to His will.



1 John 5:16-17 - our prayers for others even calls God to give life to them and keep them from sinning. Our God is a personal and living God who responds to our prayers.



3 John 2 - John prays for Gaius' health and thus acts as a subordinate mediator.



Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.



Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)



Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.



Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.



Old Testament



Gen. 20:17 - God responds to Abraham's intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.



Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.



Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 - these are many examples of God's response to Moses' saintly intercession.



1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn't continue to intercede for the people of Israel.



1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).



1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul's practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.



2 Chron. 30:27 - the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God's holy habitation in heaven and were answered.



Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah's prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.



Job 42:7-9 - Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.



Psalm 34:7 – the angel of the Lord delivers those who fear him.



Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.



Psalm 103:20-21; 148:1-2 – we praise the angels and ask for their assistance in doing God’s will.



Psalm 141:2 - David asks that his prayer be counted as incense before God. The prayers of the saints have powerful effects.



Isaiah 6:6-7 - an angel touches Isaiah's lips and declares that his sin is forgiven. The angel is a subordinate mediator of God who effects the forgiveness of sins on God’s behalf.



Jer. 7:16 - God acknowledges the people's ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.



Jer. 15:1 – the Lord acknowledges the intercessory power of Moses and Samuel.



Jer. 37:3 - king Zedekiah sends messengers to ask Jeremiah to intercede for the people, that he might pray to God for them.



Jer. 42:1-6 - all the people of Israel went before Jeremiah asking for his intercession, that he would pray to the Lord for them.



Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.



Dan. 9:20-23 - Daniel intercedes on behalf of the people of Israel confessing both his sins and the sins of the people before God.



Zech. 1:12-13 - an angel intercedes for those in Judea and God responds favorably.



2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.



IV. Veneration / Honor of the Saints



Matt. 18:10 - the angels in heaven always behold the face of God. We venerate them for their great dignity and union with God.



Matt. 15:4; Luke 18:20; Eph. 6:2-3 Exodus 20:12; Lev. 19:3; Deut. 5:16 - we are instructed to honor our father and mother.



Luke 1:28 - the angel Gabriel venerates Mary by declaring to her "Hail, full of grace." The heavenly angel honors the human Mary, for her perfection of grace exceeds that of the angels.



Romans 13:7 - we are to give honor where honor is due. When we honor God's children, we honor God Himself, for He is the source of all honor.



1 Cor. 4:16 - the most important form of veneration of the saints is "imitating" the saints, as Paul commands us to do.



1 Cor. 11:1 - again, Paul says, "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ." The ultimate objective of veneration is imitation.



Phil. 2:25-29 - Paul teaches us to honor Epaprhoditus who almost died for the faith. How much more honor is owed to the saints that did die for the faith!



Phil. 3:17 - Paul says to imitate him and others, which is the goal of veneration. Veneration is not worship.



1 Thess. 1:6 – Paul says to the Thessalonians, “You became imitators of us and of the Lord.” This is the goal of veneration.



2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul says that the Thessalonians should imitate him and the other bishops.



Hebrews 3:3 - Jesus is worthy of "more" glory and honor than Moses. This does not mean that the saints are worthy of no glory and honor. Instead, it proves that saintly people are worthy of glory and honor out of God's goodness.



Heb. 6:12 – the author teaches us to be imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.



Heb. 13:7 - we must imitate the faith of our faithful leaders. We ask for their intercession and venerate them for their holiness.



James 5:10-11 – James teaches us to take heart in the examples of the prophets and Job, who endured suffering.



1 Peter 2:17 - Peter teaches us to honor all men, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the emperor. Don't those living with Christ in heaven deserve honor? Catholics believe they do, and honor them with special feast days, just as we honor those living by celebrating their birthdays.



Gen. 19:1 - Lot venerates the two angels in Sodom, bowing himself with his face to the ground.



Gen. 42:6 - Joseph's brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground. This is veneration, not worship.



Exodus 28:2 - it is especially important to honor religious leaders. Sacred garments for Aaron give him dignity and honor.



Lev. 19:32- we should also honor "the face of an old man." When the elderly die in Christ, we should continue honoring them, because death does not separate them from us or the love of Christ.



1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in veneration.



2 Chron. 32:33 - Hezekiah was honored at his death. We honor our brothers and sisters in the Lord.



Sir. 44:1-2 - we should praise and give honor to those who the Lord apportioned great glory. It is our family in Christ.



V. Posture in Prayer, Veneration and Worship



Deut. 5:9 - God's command, "you shall not bow down to them" means "do not worship them." But not all bowing is worship. Here God's command is connected to false worship.



Rev. 3:9 - Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship, just as kissing a picture of a family member is not worship.



Gen. 19:1 - Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom.



Gen. 24:52 - Abraham's servant bowed himself to the earth before the Lord.



Gen. 42:6 - Joseph's brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground.



Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.



1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.



1 Kings 1:23 - the prophet Nathan bows down before King David.



2 Kings 2:15 - the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha at Jericho.



1 Chron. 21:21 - Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David with his face to the ground.



1 Chron. 29:20 - Israelites bowed down to worship God and give honor to the king.



2 Chron. 29:29-30 - King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.



Tobit 12:16 - Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before the angel Raphael.



Judith 14:7 - Achior the Ammonite kneels before Judith venerating her and praising God.



Psalm 138:2 - David bows down before God's Holy Temple.



Dan. 2:46 - the king fell down on his face paying homage to Daniel and commands that an offering be made to him.



Dan. 8:17 - Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel.



1 Macc. 4:40,55 - Judas and the faithful fell face down to the ground to praise heaven and worship God.



2 Macc. 10:4,26; 13:12 - Maccabeus and his followers fall down prostrate praying to God.


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
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