Question:
OK free will....go ahead explain THIS!!?
Mr. T, formerly known as Shadow.
2006-09-17 11:49:31 UTC
OK. We have free will, and yet God knows everything, so how is that free will? I mean, he knows it's going to happen so no matter WHAT we do it will all be part of a plan. THAT IS BS TO ME PEOPLE! EXPLAIN THAT IF YOU CAN

If he knows who goes to hell and who doesn't, that's not very fair right?? So if there is a God he isn't just or fair or nice is he?
28 answers:
anonymous
2006-09-17 11:53:37 UTC
I agree with you.

You are one SMART and FREE THINKING PERSON.

Isn`t it ironic that every time this is asked we fluster the believers ?

Let hear some quotes on this one people ~
Jim L
2006-09-17 20:34:06 UTC
I think its possible that both God and Free Will are myths. The reason for thinking God is a myth has been discussed in this forum many times. But to my knowledge, no one ever says that Free Will is a myth. I know we all free like we have free will, but there is no way to prove that we have free will. As I write this, I feel like I can stop at any moment, ponder what I am about to say, and make changes. But is that an illusion? If it were somehow possible to take a complete snapshot of me, and later "replay" my experience of writing this answer, isn't it possible that I would go through the exact same sequence of thoughts and write the exact same thing?



Of course, there is no way to take a snapshot of a person. And because of that, there is no controlled experiment that we can conduct that would conclusively demonstrate free will.



I believe I have free will. I an not entirely certain in that belief, but I believe that even if it is possible that free will is an illusion, that I should still act under the assumption that I do have free will. My actions have consequences, and I am responsible for making ethical choices, whether free will is real or an illusion.
cindy
2006-09-17 18:57:47 UTC
We use our free will for many things, but the only thing God wants us to use it for is to Accept or reject him. THis choice he gives us freely and does not interfere with.



Now, prayer does change things. So free will is given to ask for things to be different. The only time that God will not grant our prayers is if it directly goes against his will and way about something that needs to happen (even when we cannot see what that reason would be)



In the secular world, this is called the butterfly effect. We have no idea that one tiny little action on our part could end up having a huge reaction sometime down the line of time. God does know the end result, but he does let us reject his will sometimes, he will just use someone else and we lose the blessing that we could have had from it.
movedby
2006-09-17 20:09:03 UTC
Your God, (yes whether you like it or not, He is your God also) is not limited by our feeble understanding. He spoke all things into existence and all things are held together by the integrity of His word.



Yes, God gave us all free will and yes He does know what we will all do with it. Our refusing to accept His omnipotence neither negates nor diminishes it. God is not dependant upon our approval. He is a Just God and is not subject to our distorted sense of "fair play", He is God and we are not.



If you are offended by the fact that God already knows (and you don't) whether or not you will accept His free gift of salvation, or are dismissive of your Creator because He (according to His word, the Bible) doesn't fit the profile you have created for Him, then I suggest that you give some very serious thought to the following.



If God knows and you don't, you should take some comfort in knowing that you don't. Why? Because you, (by your God given right to choose) still have an option to exercise your free will.



If that does not help then consider also that God is so awesome that He not only knows your future but He also knows your every possible future, think about it and recognise that your God is truly an awesome God.



Last and by no means least we can trust in the integrity of His word that He is love, that our hope is given substance by our faith and our faith is made perfect in Jesus.



Joh 3:16-17

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
love_2b_curious
2006-09-17 19:02:48 UTC
At a swim meet, I know that when the starting gun is fired, the swimmers will dive into the water. Obviously I am not controlling the swimmers just because I know that.

And just because God knows who's going to heaven and who's going to hell doesn't mean He's sending them there. People choose their own destiny through their own free will and through their lifestyles.

Hey, not only is it placed in man's heart to know right from wrong, but the rules are also written in the Bible so man has no excuse! Just like when a person commits a criminal act, he knows if he gets caught, he will be punished through some form of sentencing right? Down here on Earth, we are not only under the physical laws of nature, (which God implemented), but we are also living under spiritual laws moment by moment.

So, you know the laws... it's your choice! Whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant - they are what they are!
l;wksjf;aslkd
2006-09-17 18:55:40 UTC
No; you're not getting it. Free will meaning that, despite God's knowing everything, we still have the ability to choose what we do in life. God knows everything because he knows what would happen if we made the right or wrong choices. If we walk in Jesus, God knows exactly what will happen, depending on what we choose to do. If we don't, God knows that we will go to Hell and he knows exactly how, since we would be in the Devil's hands. That can help reconcile God's omniscience with our free will.

Aside from that, Jesus shows us that we all have the ability to choose. He told us that there are two roads: the broad road that leads to destruction, and the narrow path the leads to life. He encouraged us to CHOOSE life. In no way does the Bible support the concept of fatalism. It is repeated over and over again in the Bible that humans choose Heaven or Hell.
***&&***
2006-09-17 19:02:16 UTC
I believe the idea is that he doesn't know everything every person is going to do. What he's supposed to know is the general plan based on the nature of Satan and some humans tendency to follow him. So, he knows that some people will choose to refuse him and some will follow, and that those who choose Satan will cause the end of the world as we know it. To the best of my knowledge, there is not pre-made list of who will or won't go to 'hell' or 'heaven'. If I recall correctly what it says in the Bible is that God will come again TO JUDGE, not that he's pre-judged. Free will is us being able to chose our own paths. As for God being nice. I don't think he's much interested in being nice. It's more that he's like a parent. He's set the laws. If you follow them, he'll be good to you. If you don't... punishment.
som
2006-09-17 19:00:42 UTC
I think you are confusing the issue. You are confusing God's attribute of omniscience with our freewill. There is a difference between knowing something and doing something. Just because God knows everything does not mean we have to do what He knows. You are also confusing God's omniscience with fate. We are not fated. Just because God knows of Hell doesn't mean He has a plan for all or some of us to go there. Hell is what we choose.

We can go through life as good people and say to God, "Thy will be done." Or if we choose not to and choose Hell, then God will say to us, "Thy will be done."

Now following God's will is not oppressive. It is life-giving and life saving (salvation). So, to choose Hell is to choose that which is not life-giving or life saving. In the end we choose one way or the other.

May the Lord bless and keep you. May He let the light of His face shine upon you.

God's and your beast of burden

Fr. john
Bob L
2006-09-17 19:08:47 UTC
There is a short little verse in the Book of Proverbs that may help answer your question.



Proverbs 16:9 "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps."



Man's free will allows us to choose our own path in life (way).

And...God loves us enough to direct our steps along that chosen path.



Should we stray too far, God has a way of getting us back on our path, and during the course of our life-journey, we are exposed to another choice: Jesus Christ.



Again, our free will allows us to choose Jesus as Savior, or reject Him. Research it, and you'll know what the results are from either choice.



God is just and fair because He never FORCES His will upon us.

But to make wise choices, we must research the consequences, or the blessings of our decisions.



It's like making a financial invetment. Hopefully, you do your homework to get the best return on your investment.
Sparkle1
2006-09-17 20:43:25 UTC
People have free will. God CAN know anything he wishes to know but chooses not to know all things in order for us to be able to decide for ourselves. Hell (as a firey place of torment where souls go) is an outright lie. The Bible definition of soul is the person you are or the life that you have. Obviously, then, neither of these can survive the death of a person. AND, the Bible says, when you die, your thoughts cease!! You could not experience torment if you were not consious of anything at all!!!
anonymous
2006-09-17 18:53:21 UTC
Well, considering you usually have at least two choices in a situation, and you pick the one you see as the most right, then, yes, it's free will. Just because God knows what you are going to pick doesn't mean that you did
anonymous
2006-09-17 19:46:39 UTC
The word will is used to refer to a person's faculty of deciding, choosing, or acting. The nature of will and even whether or not it exists is the subject of philosophical debate.



Epiphenominalists, for example, argue that the mental state of choosing to do something does not actually cause an action. Instead, the mental state of choosing is caused by some prior neural state which is the actual cause of the action in question.



Determinists argue that our wills are not free. We may feel as though we freely choose to do things, but everything is ultimately determined by prior material events. Thus, it is merely an illusion that we have free will.



It is necessary to form a distinct notion of what is meant by the word ``volition'' in order to understand the import of the word will, for this last word expresses the power of mind of which "volition" is the act. -Stewart.



Will is an ambiguous word, being sometimes put for the faculty of willing; sometimes for the act of that faculty, besides [having] other meanings. But "volition'' always signifies the act of willing, and nothing else. -Reid.
thaliax
2006-09-17 18:52:46 UTC
Here's the simplistic way in which the concept of predestination was explained to me:



God is omniscient; therefore, He knows ahead of time which decision you'll make. You will either accept or deny Christ. So God knows if you're going to Hell, based on your choice. But that choice is not ultimately His; it's yours. He just happens to know in advance which decision you'll be making.
slim1234
2006-09-17 18:52:47 UTC
He has a plan for every person. He gave us all free will. We can choose to follow His plan for us, or do our own thing and end up in Hell. It's ultimately our choice. Follow God and live, or refuse to follow Him and die.
Mary C
2006-09-17 19:13:44 UTC
First of all, calm your nerves.



Second, God does know all.

He gives us free will too.



If it was up to Him soley, we would NOT sin.



We have choices to make in life.



He knows the consequences of each choice.



He can guide us, only if we ask for it, but He's not going to make us do anything.



He does not shield us from the consequences because it was OUR choice to make that decision.



Understand?
anonymous
2006-09-17 18:57:37 UTC
'Omniscience' is logically incompatible with 'free will'. 'Omniscience', all by itself, is sufficient to put the lid on 'free will'; omnipresence and omnipotence are irrelevant. It is not necessary for god to intervene in order to negate 'free will' as a possibility. Omniscience negates free will all by itself.



If we really DO have 'free will', then an omniscient god is logically excluded. The logical fallacy lies in the premise that if god is omniscient, all outcomes are already known to god... everything that you think, decide and do... and everything that you WILL think, decide, and do.



For an omniscient being, all of existence over all of time is laid out as a tapestry before him... past, present and future, down to the smallest detail of material, of thought and of deed, and all is constantly in his awareness. There is no past, present and future from that perspective... there is only an eternal 'now'.



If that is the case, since god already knows everything that will happen, then everything is already decided... and as we go along through life, we are merely doing what has already been seen by god. Since god knows and sees everything that will happen, NOTHING that we think or do can be contrary to what god already sees and knows. We might THINK we have free will... but since we are merely acting out what god already sees and knows, this can be no more than an ILLUSION of free will.



Put another way, if you come to a point of decision, you have no choice but to take the path that god already knows you will take... there is no other option. That works all the way down the path of cause-and-effect... and, along the way, it even casts doubt on the validity of the concept of cause and effect. I don't want to get into that, though... it makes my hair hurt.



So, imagine that since before time began, since before the universe was created, god has 'known' that you would come to a point of decision at some spatial and temporal coordinate, and that faced with the possible paths A and B, you would take path A.



Now, during the course of your life, you arrive at that spatial and temporal coordinate where this choice exists. You evaluate the potential outcomes, and you have it in your head that you have 'free will', and thus, you are free to choose between path A and path B. However, since god is 'omniscient', and god 'knows' that you will take path 'A', then path B IS NOT an option... it IS NOT a matter of choice... it is a 'NECESSITY'. OF NECESSITY, you WILL take path A. Not 'must'... not 'can'... WILL take path A. You DO NOT have a choice. Path B is NOT an option... it is not even a POSSIBILITY. The best that you can achieve is the ILLUSION that you are free to choose.



So, either god is omniscient OR we have free will. It is QUITE IMPOSSIBLE for BOTH of these conditions to coexist.



The only way out of this logical dilemma is to limit god's power; i.e., start taking away things that god can see and know, until we get to a point where free will BECOMES a possibility. But when we start doing that, then he ceases to be omniscient... and thus ceases to be a 'supreme being'.



So... free will is an impossibility concomitant with an omniscient diety. The following sums up the possibilities:



1. There is no omniscient diety... therefore, the whole argument is stupid and irrelevant.



2. IF we possess 'free will' AND god exists, THEN, of necessity, it is IMPOSSIBLE that god is omniscient. (This does not preclude the notion of 'god'... it just means that he can't be as 'supreme' as one might think he is... or wish him to be.) You are (logically) obliged to acknowledge that god CAN NOT BE all knowing... and since omniscience is one of the things that makes god 'all powerful', then this means that god CAN NOT BE omnipotent, either.



3. IF god exists AND god is omniscient THEN, OF NECESSITY, it is IMPOSSIBLE that that we have free will, and you are (metaphorically speaking) nothing more than a piece on god's eternal game board; and, thus, "... man is not responsible for his actions."



Personally, I vote for number 1. You can pick any one you want... but YOU MUST PICK ONE, because there are NO OTHER possible outcomes... NO OTHER logically valid choices.



It is unfortunate (for the Abrahamic death cults of desert monotheism) that the concepts of god were solidified as dogma a few thousand years before the philosophical discipline of 'logic' was dreamed up by the Greeks. Those that concocted the religion did not have access to the intellectual tools that would have enabled them to realize that they had 'screwed the pooch' with respect to assigning god's impossible attributes. It wasn't until the 4th century that this logical impossibility garnered serious attention, and churchmen got their theological 'dancin' shoes' on, trying to weasel their way out of the logical dilemma.



They did not succeed, and this issue continues to be debated even 'til this day. This logical dilemma (and the resulting 'cognitive dissonance') was a key element in some of the various 'heresies' that were spawned in the early days of Christianity.



However, the simple observation that these impossible beliefs still exist shows that this does not seem to have been a very big hindrance, under the simple expediency that "There is no problem so big that we cannot ignore it, until it will go away." Too bad for them, though... it DOESN'T go away.



Corporate religion is helped along by the fact that most 'believers' do not employ logic or critical thinking skills; heck... that's why they're believers in the first place. If they employed logic and critical thinking, they WOULD NOT BE believers. So, even though these concepts create a logical impossibility, it does not seem to present a significant problem for them.
oceansoflight777
2006-09-17 18:55:31 UTC
I think it's largely a misunderstanding that God is absolutely all knowing. If He were, you would have a very good point here. I don't see how He could possibly have perfect foreknowledge of everything everybody will ever do.
anonymous
2006-09-17 18:53:57 UTC
if you had a choice between $5 and $100, you would choose the $100 right? just because what you will choose is predictable doesn't mean you don't have a choice. and if someone is omniscient everything is predictable.
Royal Racer Hell=Grave ©
2006-09-17 19:00:07 UTC
Many Eons ago, did God know that the Cherubim that coverth, was going to rebel?
anonymous
2006-09-17 18:52:06 UTC
we make most of our decisions. God does determine some big things like when its our time to go. there you go.--whats with you? you cant accept the fact thats some things are predetermined? and that you make some of your own decisions? im not contradicting myself at all. and yes he sees all why cant you accept that? i think you're in denial.
Jack of Hearts
2006-09-17 18:55:40 UTC
We all have free will, The mistake you are making is assuming there is a god, That's a matter of faith. Whether or not he exists, You still have free will.
liveasahb
2006-09-17 18:55:23 UTC
HE said to us that there is right and wrong and advised to choose RIGHT...we can choose what to do, it's not compulsory for you and me to go to church, to pray, to help those in need...we can choose to l tell the truth or not to etc.
anonymous
2006-09-17 18:53:17 UTC
He knows what choices we will make...but doesnt interfere...if He did then he would be controlling everyone thus it wouldnt be free will.Because he lets us screw up this makes it free will.
anonymous
2006-09-17 18:53:27 UTC
if you know that your friend will order a big mac at ncdonald's for dinner, does that mean she has no free will? just because G-d knows, does not mean he is influencing you.
?
2006-09-17 19:21:43 UTC
You make the decision, He just knows in advence what that decision will be. Its still your call.
lefang
2006-09-17 18:51:57 UTC
confuse god, plan not to have a plan.
anonymous
2006-09-17 18:51:13 UTC
he doesn't tell us everything he's going do, or, he doesn't pay much attention and leaves that up to you?
anonymous
2006-09-17 18:51:50 UTC
there is no god and religion is the root of evil


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