Question:
If the bible itself says that it is not the "final" authority?
2007-07-17 06:39:58 UTC
does that mean that fully bible based chruches are in error.

Given that it says it is only profitable for use for teaching, correcting etc (profitable not absolute)

And in fact it does say that it isint the final authority and needs to be read in light of other teaching

The Bible makes no such claim—in fact, it denies it (1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Thess. 2:15, 2 Tim. 2:2, 2 Pet. 1:20, 3:15-16)

What do you think
Thirteen answers:
idfb believer
2007-07-17 06:47:01 UTC
2 Peter 1:19-21



19We have also a MORE SURE word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:



20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.



21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2007-07-17 15:22:54 UTC
Should the Bible be the final authority of Christianity or the Church? Well, Christ stated that the Church, NOT Scripture should be the final authority: "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." (Matthew 18:17) Christ did NOT state to refer to or consult Scripture for disputes and correction. He said to go to the Church as It is the final authority in Christianity. In addition, St. Paul states that the Church, NOT Scripture is "THE pillar and ground of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15) Since the Church alone is mentioned as THE pillar of truth, then It alone has the right to discern the truth and interpret Scripture. For if individuals could correctly interpret Scripture, then all interpretations would be EXACTLY THE SAME as there can only be ONE spiritual truth for the plural of the word "truth" NEVER appears in Scripture. The Church is Christ's bride (Ephesians 5:29) and has no spot, wrinkle or blemish (Ephesians 5:27). Christ also stated that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church (Matthew 16:18) so how can the Church commit error? Individual clergy may commit sins, even popes commit sins because in the Church there are both weeds and wheat (Matthew 13:30).



Is the Bible the sole authority and foundation of truth for Christianity? No, the Church is the "pillar and bulwark of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15) and the final authority (Matthew 18:17). Furthermore, there are traditions to be observed which are on equal footing with Scripture for not everything the Apostles taught or Jesus said, was written down (1 Corinthians 11:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:15; 3:6; John 21:25).
The Raven †
2007-07-17 11:48:29 UTC
John 21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written."



1 Timothy 3:15 "but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR and ground OF the TRUTH."



2 Thessalonians 2:15 "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth (oral tradition) or by letter from us."



Well, it looks to me like these verses basically sum it up. Oral tradition is just as important as scripture. Not everything Jesus said and did was written down. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth, therefore being the final authority. And besides, how could the Bible have authority over the Church if the Church existed more than 300 years before the Bible?
hossteacher
2007-07-18 16:34:15 UTC
The final authority is the Catholic Church. The scripture and tradition make up the sources of revelation. The Holy Spirit guides the Church to all truth.

The Living Magisterium of the Church is the final authority.

How was the Bible put together? By the Catholic Church.
Vernacular Catholic
2007-07-17 19:22:29 UTC
The Bible would not say it is the sole authority because the Bible as we know it didn't exist at that time!

The Apostles used Tradition and Scripture together and clearly told us to use Tradition and to listen to what was Spoken and the truths which were handed down orally and entrusted to the Church by the apostles.
Machaira
2007-07-17 06:52:30 UTC
God is always the final authority. Since the Bible is his word that makes it part of the final authority. When someone comes along with a teaching that contradicts scripture, scripture is correct. God will not contradict himself.
Q&A Queen
2007-07-17 06:47:56 UTC
The scripture you cite incorporates an absolute... ALL scripture.... and the word "profitable" is also translated as "beneficial". It doesn't HAVE to be an absolute in that context. I don't have a bible with me or I'd look up those verses and answer about on or two of thsoe individually. (thank you for citing scriptures in your question tho. so many just put blanket statements out there :) )



The bottom line for this Q&A'er is this. Deutoronomy 32:verse something I can't remember right now..... "The Rock, Perfect is his activity..." His activity includes the inspiration of the bible.



Let me put it in secular terms: You buy a car. You get a manual for that car. Is that manual not the absolute authority on care of your new car? Why? Because it is written by the car's maker. The bible was written by OUR maker. Make sense? I hope so. :-)
C
2007-07-17 14:34:38 UTC
God is the "Final" authority.



The Bible is a tool to help us stay in his grace.



The Chruch is another tool.



There is nothing in the Catholic Church that contradicts Scripture.



Peace be with you!
Faustina
2007-07-17 10:16:51 UTC
Great question! I've been asking for years, "Where in the Bible does it say "sola scriptura'?"



I've never gotten an answer. I am not surprised.



I'll be waiting anxiously for someone to give a valid answer to your questions.
aaron
2007-07-17 07:06:04 UTC
yes, it's God who is the final authority. Bible is the sacred book of christians
capitalctu
2007-07-17 06:47:11 UTC
I think you're misquoting the Bible. Paul talks of "teachings" because the church was born in 30-33, and he was writing in 35-60.



In fact, Paul was saying in these letters that, "I've already taught you the scripture, I'm just reinforcing it here." - my paraphrase...
2007-07-17 06:43:43 UTC
If you don't want to accept the Bible, don't. You have a free will.
†Lawrence R†
2007-07-17 16:59:33 UTC
I'll present to you what comes from the Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible, as he explains it much better than I. I'll show the Scripture first, and his commentary immediately after.



"1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brothers, that you remember me in all things, and hold firm the traditions, even as I delivered them to you."



Barnes - And keep the ordinances - Margin, “Traditions” (τὰς παραδώσεις tas paradōseis). The word does not refer to anything that had been delivered down from a former generation, or from former times, as the word “tradition” now usually signifies; but it means that which had been “delivered to them (παραδίδωμι paradidōmi); that is, by the apostles.” The apostles had “delivered” to them certain doctrines, or rules, respecting the good order and the government of the church; and they had in general observed them, and were disposed still to do it. For this disposition to regard his authority, and to keep what he had enjoined, he commends them. He proceeds to specify what would be proper in regard to the particular subject on which they had made inquiry.



"2Th 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm, and hold the traditions which you were taught by us, whether by word, or by letter."



Barnes - And hold the traditions which ye have been taught On the word “traditions,” see the notes on Mat_15:2. It means properly things delivered over from one to another; then anything orally delivered - any precept, doctrine, or law. It is frequently employed to denote that which is not written, as contradistinguished from that which is written (compare Mat_15:2), but not necessarily or always; for here the apostle speaks of the “traditions which they had been taught by his epistle;” compare the notes, 1Co_11:2. Here it means the doctrines or precepts which they had received from the apostle, whether when he was with them, or after he left them; whether communicated by preaching or by letter. This passage can furnish no authority for holding the “traditions” which have come down from ancient times, and which profess to have been derived from the apostles; because:

(1) there is no evidence that any of those traditions were given by the apostles;

(2) many of them are manifestly so trifling, false, and contrary to the writings of the apostles, that they could not have been delivered by them;

(3) if any of them are genuine, it is impossible to separate them from those which are false;

(4) we have all that is necessary for salvation in the written word; and,

(5) there is not the least evidence that the apostle here meant to refer to any such thing.

He speaks only of what had been delivered to them by himself, whether orally or by letter; not of what was delivered from one to another as from him. There is no intimation here that they were to hold anything as from him which they had not received directly from him, either by his own instructions personally or by letter. With what propriety, then, can this passage be adduced to prove that we are to hold the traditions which professedly come to us through a great number of intermediate persons? Where is the evidence here that the church was to hold those unwritten traditions, and transmit them to future times?



Whether by word - By preaching, when we were with you. It does not mean that he had sent any oral message to them by a third person.



Or our epistle - The former letter which he had written to them.



"2Ti 2:2 The things which you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit the same to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also."



Barnes - And the things which thou hast heard of me among many witnesses - Margin, “by.” Before, or in the presence of, many witnesses. Perhaps he refers to a solemn charge which he gave him, in the presence of the church, when he was ordained. It is by no means improbable that such a charge was given then to a newly ordained minister, as it is now. On such an occasion, the apostle would be likely to state a summary of Christian doctrine, - (compare the notes at 2Ti_1:13), - and to exhort Timothy to a faithful adherence to it.

The same commit thou to faithful men - In the same way as those things have been committed to you. The reference is undoubtedly to ordination to the ministerial office. Timothy was to see that those only were admitted to the ministry who were qualified to understand the truths of religion, and to communicate them to others. This is a clear warrant for ministers to set apart others to the same sacred office. It does not prove that the people are not at liberty to choose their own pastor, but only that those in the ministry are to set apart others to the same office with themselves. There is, doubtless, to be a “succession” of ministers in the church; but the true line of the “succession” is to be found in good men who are qualified to teach, and who have the spirit of Christ, and not merely in those who have been ordained.



"2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation. 2Pe 1:21 For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke, being moved by the Holy Spirit."



Barnes - The more correct interpretation, as it seems to me, is that which supposes that the apostle teaches that the truths which the prophets communicated were not originated by themselves; were not of their own suggestion or invention; were not their own opinions, but were of higher origin, and were imparted by God; and according to this the passage may be explained, “knowing this as a point of first importance when you approach the prophecies, or always bearing this in mind, that it is a great principle in regard to the prophets, that what they communicated “was not of their own disclosure;” that is, was not revealed or originated by them.” That this is the correct interpretation will be apparent from the following considerations:

(1) It accords with the design of the apostle, which is to produce an impressive sense of the importance and value of the prophecies, and to lead those to whom he wrote to study them with diligence. This could be secured in no way so well as by assuring them that the writings which he wished them to study did not contain truths originated by the human mind, but that they were of higher origin.

(2) this interpretation accords with what is said in the following verse, and is the only one of all those proposed that is consistent with that, or in connection with which that verse will have any force. In that verse 2Pe_1:21, a reason is given for what is said here: “For (γὰρ gar) the prophecy came not in old time “by the will of man,”” etc. But this can be a good reason for what is said here only on the supposition that the apostle meant to say that what they communicated was not originated by themselves; that it was of a higher than human origin; that the prophets spake “as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” This fact was a good reason why they should show profound respect for the prophecies, and study them with attention. But how could the fact that “they were moved by the Holy Ghost” be a reason for studying them, if the meaning here is that the prophets could not understand their own language, or that the prophecy could be understood only by the event, or that the prophecy had a double meaning, etc.? If the prophecies were of Divine origin, then “that” was a good reason why they should be approached with reverence, and should be profoundly studied.

(3) this interpretation accords as well, to say the least, with the fair meaning of the language employed, as either of the other opinions proposed. The word rendered “interpretation” (ἐπίλυσις epilusis) occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It properly means “solution” (Robinson’s Lexicon), “disclosure,” (Prof. Stuart on the Old Testament, p. 328,) “making free (Passow,)” with the notion that what is thus released or loosed was before bound, entangled obscure. The verb from which this word is derived (ἐπιλύω epiluō) means, “to let loose upon,” as dogs upon a hare, (Xen. Mem. 7, 8; ib 9, 10;) to loose or open letters; to loosen a band; to loose or disclose a riddle or a dark saying, and then to enlighten, illustrate, etc. - Passow. It is twice used in the New Testament. Mar_4:34, “he expounded all things to his disciples”; Act_19:39, “It shall be determined in a lawful assembly.”

The verb would be applicable to loosing anything which is bound or confined, and thence to the explanation of a mysterious doctrine or a parable, or to a disclosure of what was before unknown. The word, according to this, in the place before us, would mean the disclosure of what was before bound, or retained, or unknown; either what had never been communicated at all, or what had been communicated obscurely; and the idea is, “no prophecy recorded in the Scripture is of, or comes from, any exposition or disclosure of the will and purposes of God by the prophets themselves.” It is not a thing of their own, or a private matter originating with themselves, but it is to be traced to a higher source. If this be the true interpretation, then it follows that the prophecies are to be regarded as of higher than any human origin; and then, also, it follows that this passage should not be used to prove that the prophets did not understand the nature of their own communications, or that they were mere unconscious and passive instruments in the hand of God to make known his will. Whatever may be the truth on those points, this passage proves nothing in regard to them, any mare than the fact that a minister of religion now declares truth which he did not originate, but which is to be traced to God as its author, proves that he does not understand what he himself says. It follows, also, that this passage cannot be adduced by the Papists to prove that the people at large should not have free access to the word of God, and should not be allowed to interpret it for themselves. It makes no affirmation on that point, and does not even contain any “principle” of which such a use can be made; for:

(1) Whatever it means, it is confined to “prophecy;” it does not embrace the whole Bible.

(2) whatever it means, it merely states a fact; it does not enjoin a duty. It states, as a fact, that there was something about the prophecies which was not of private solution, but it does not state that it is the duty of the church to prevent any private explanation or opinion even of the prophecies.

(3) it says nothing about “the church” as empowered to give a public or authorized interpretation of the prophecies. There is not a hint, or an intimation of any kind, that the church is intrusted with any such power whatever. There never was any greater perversion of a passage of Scripture than to suppose that this teaches that any class of people is not to have free access to the Bible. The effect of the passage, properly interpreted, should be to lead us to study the Bible with profound reverence, as having a higher than any human origin, not to turn away from it as if it were unintelligible, nor to lead us to suppose that it can be interpreted only by one class of men. The fact that it discloses truths which the human mind could not of itself have originated, is a good reason for studying it with diligence and with prayer - not for supposing that it is unlawful for us to attempt to understand it; a good reason for reverence and veneration for it - not for sanctified neglect.



You seem to be referring more to 2 Peter 3:16 then 15 in this last one:



"2Pe 3:16 as also in all of his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those, there are some things that are hard understand, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.



Barnes - Speaking in them of these things - The things which Peter had dwelt upon in his two epistles. The great doctrines of the cross; of the depravity of man; of the divine purposes; of the new birth; of the consummation of all things; of the return of the Saviour to judge the world, and to receive his people to himself; the duty of a serious, devout and prayerful life, and of being prepared for the heavenly world. These things are constantly dwelt upon by Paul, and to his authority in these respects Peter might appeal with the utmost confidence.

In which - The common reading in this passage is ἐν οἷς en hois, and according to this the reference is to the “subjects” treated of - “in which things” - referring to what he had just spoken of - “speaking of these things.” This reading is found in the common editions of the New Testament, and is supported by far the greater number of mss., and by most commentators and critics. It is found in Griesbach, Tittman, and Hahn, and has every evidence of being the genuine reading. Another reading, however, (ἐν αἷς en hais,) is found in some valuable mss., and is supported by the Syriac and Arabic versions, and adopted by Mill (Prolegomena 1484), and by Beza. According to this, the reference is to the “epistles” themselves - as would seem to be implied in our common version. The true construction, so far as the evidence goes, is to refer it not directly to the “epistles,” but to the “things” of which Peter says Paul wrote; that is, not to the style and language of Paul, but to the great truths and doctrines which he taught. Those doctrines were indeed contained in his epistles, but still, according to the fair construction of the passage before us, Peter should not be understood as accusing Paul of obscurity of style. He refers not to the difficulty of understanding what Paul meant, but to the difficulty of comprehending the great truths which he taught. This is, generally, the greatest difficulty in regard to the statements of Paul. The difficulty is not that the meaning of the writer is not plain, but it is either:

(a) that the mind is overpowered by the grandeur of the thought, and the incomprehensible nature of the theme, or

(b) that the truth is so unpalatable, and the mind is so prejudiced against it, that we are unwilling to receive it.

Many a man knows well enough what Paul means, and would receive his doctrines without hesitation if the heart was not opposed to it; and in this state of mind Paul is charged with obscurity, when the real difficulty lies only in the heart of him who makes the complaint. If this be the true interpretation of this passage, then it should not be adduced to prove that Paul is an obscure writer, whatever may be true on that point. There are, undoubtedly, obscure things in his writings, as there are in all other ancient compositions, but this passage should not be adduced to prove that he had not the faculty of making himself understood. An honest heart, a willingness to receive the truth, is one of the best qualifications for understanding the writings of Paul; and when this exists, no one will fail to find truth that may be comprehended, and that will be eminently adapted to sanctify and save the soul.

Are some things hard to be understood - Things pertaining to high and difficult subjects, and which are not easy to be comprehended. Peter does not call in question the truth of what Paul had written; he does not intimate that he himself would differ from him His language is rather that which a man would use who regarded the writings to which he referred as true, and what he says here is an honorable testimony to the authority of Paul. It may be added,

(1) that Peter does not say that all the doctrines of the Bible, or even all the doctrines of Paul, are hard to be understood, or that nothing is plain.

(2) he says nothing about withholding the Bible, or even the writings of Paul, from the mass of Christians, on the ground of the difficulty of understanding the Scriptures; nor does he intimate that that was the design of the Author of the Bible.

(3) it is perfectly manifest, from this very passage, that the writings of Paul were in fact in the hands of the people, else how could they wrest and pervert them?

(4) Peter says nothing about an infallible interpreter of any kind, nor does he intimate that either he or his “successors” were authorized to interpret them for the church.

(5) with what propriety can the pretended successor of Peter - the pope - undertake to expound those difficult doctrines in the writings of Paul, when even Peter himself did not undertake it, and when he did not profess to be able to comprehend them? Is the Pope more skilled in the knowledge of divine things than the apostle Peter? Is he better qualified to interpret the sacred writings than an inspired apostle was?

(6) those portions of the writings of Paul, for anything that appears to the contrary, are just as “hard to be understood” now, as they were before the “infallible” church undertook to explain them. The world is Little indebted to any claims of infallibility in explaining the meaning of the oracles of God. It remains yet to be seen that any portion of the Bible has been made clearer by “any” mere authoritative explanation. And,

(7) it should be added, that without any such exposition, the humble inquirer after truth may find enough in the Bible to guide his feet in the paths of salvation. No one ever approached the sacred Scriptures with a teachable heart, who did not find them “able to make him wise unto salvation.” Compare the notes at 2Ti_3:15.

Which they that are unlearned - The evil here adverted to is that which arises in cases where those without competent knowledge undertake to become expounders of the word of God. It is not said that it is not proper for them to attempt to become instructed by the aid of the sacred writings; but the danger is, that without proper views of interpretation, of language, and of ancient customs, they might be in danger of perverting and abusing certain portions of the writings of Paul. Intelligence among the people is everywhere in the Bible presumed to be proper in understanding the sacred Scriptures; and ignorance may produce the same effects in interpreting the Bible which it will produce in interpreting other writings. Every good thing is liable to abuse; but the proper way to correct this evil, and to remove this danger, is not to keep the people in ignorance, or to appoint some one to be an infallible interpreter; it is to remove the ignorance itself by enlightening the people, and rendering them better qualified to understand the sacred oracles. The way to remove error is not to perpetuate ignorance it is to enlighten the mind, so that it may be qualified to appreciate the truth.

And unstable - Who have no settled principles and views. The evil here adverted to is that which arises where those undertake to interpret the Bible who have no established principles. They regard nothing as settled. They have no landmarks set up to guide their inquiries. They have no stability in their character, and of course nothing can be regarded as settled in their methods of interpreting the Bible. They are under the control of feeling and emotion, and are liable to embrace one opinion to-day, and another directly opposite to-morrow. But the way to prevent This evil is not by attempting to give to a community an authoritative interpretation of the Bible; it is to diffuse abroad just principles, that men may obtain from the Bible an intelligent view of what it means.

Wrest - Pervert - στρεβλοῦσιν streblousin. The word here used occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It is derived from a word meaning a windlass, winch, instrument of torture στρεβλή streblē and means to roll or wind on a windlass; then to wrench, or turn away, as by the force of a windlass; and then to wrest or pervert. It implies a turning out of the way by the application of force. Here the meaning is, that they apply those portions of the Bible to a purpose for which they were never intended. It is doubtless true that this may occur. Men may abuse and pervert anything that is good. But the way to prevent this is not to set up a pretended infallible interpreter. With all the perversities arising from ignorance in the interpretation of the Bible; in all the crude, and weak, and fanciful expositions which could be found among those who have interpreted the Scriptures for themselves - and they are many - if they were all collected together, there would not be found so many adapted to corrupt and ruin the soul, as have come from the interpretations attempted to be palmed upon the world by the one church that claims to be the infallible expounder of the word of God.

As they do also the other scriptures - This is an unequivocal declaration of Peter that he regarded the writings of Paul as a part of the holy Scriptures, and of course that he considered him as inspired. The word “Scriptures,” as used by a Jew, had a technical signification - meaning the inspired writings, and was the common word which was applied to the sacred writings of the Old Testament. As Peter uses this language, it implies that he regarded the writings of Paul as on a level with the Old Testament; and as far as the testimony of one apostle can go to confirm the claim of another to inspiration, it proves that the writings of Paul are entitled to a place in the sacred canon. It should be remarked, also, that Peter evidently speaks here of the common estimate in which the writings of Paul were held. He addresses those to whom he wrote, not in such a way as to declare to them that the writings of Paul were to be regarded as a part of the inspired volume, but as if this were already known, and were an admitted point.

Unto their own destruction - By embracing false doctrines. Error destroys the soul; and it is very possible for a man so to read the Bible as only to confirm himself in error. He may find passages which, by a perverted interpretation, shall seem to sustain his own views; and, instead of embracing the truth, may live always under delusion, and perish at last. It is not to be inferred that every man who reads the Bible, or even every one who undertakes to be its public expounder, will certainly be saved.



I apologize for the length of this response, but I wanted to make sure I addressed the whole of it.


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