Question:
Why don't anti-evolution folk understand that evolution is an observation?
Rasa
2010-09-18 19:18:47 UTC
Just like how I observe that there are lights in the sky without explaining how or why or what, evolution is just an observation.

Evolution is the observation that the genetic composition of a species changes over time. Natural selection is the proposed how. When you combine an observation with a set of rules explaining the observation (roughly the how) backed up by data, that is a theory.

So why don't anti-evolution folk understand this? And also, does this contribute to why it's hard to convince them otherwise, since they don't even understand that they're disagreeing about an observation?

It's like trying to argue we don't fall down when we jump isn't it?
21 answers:
?
2010-09-18 19:26:30 UTC
Even as an educator, and a person of rather prodigious patience, I still have a hard time with understanding how they think. However, Americans today have a distrust of science in general and intellectuals at large, not to mention that standards of math and science education are slipping every year. It is no wonder that people grow up without an understanding of what science is and how it works.



Sir Thomas-

Macroevolution can and does happen. You can observe it in a single scientist's career in insects, fish, birds, and microbes (my specialty). The cichlids in Lake Victoria speciate (that's what you creationists call "macroevolution", which isn't an actual scientific term) at the rate of once every thirty-three years- that's lightning fast in geological terms! Try this exercise- explain how small changes (what you call "microevolution") and variation can continue to happen in a species and not build up among two isolated populations of that same species until the two can't interbreed. That, my friend, is speciation and the loss of your argument. There are hundreds of diseases today that we didn't have 100 years ago, that are different species. Please at least try to use your head.



@Light and Truth- mutation is not degradation. Physics is not biology. For example, sickle-cell anemia is a mutation, but provides protective advantage against malaria.



@Jesuslovesatheiststoo-

I observe evolution in progress in my lab every day. Come on down and I'll show you how biology works.
Barry W
2010-09-19 02:37:48 UTC
I think your terms are somewhat mixed. The observation is mutation, that genetic material can (infrequently) be altered. That the majority of such mutations have NEGATIVE impact is observation.



Origin of Species talked about "radiation of species" to allow animals to occupy 'open' areas by favoring certain traits...beak differences in birds...and allowing the sub-species to compete more successfully in their niche. These are observations woven into a theory. That theory has been expanded to say that a new species can emerge out of an existing one, though there have been no observations of this...it takes many years, if it occurs at all.



To apply one set of observations, and to apply those principles to explain why things are the way they are is a projection based on a theory. Evolutionists may even project that life arose from 'inorganic' material...for which there is no evidence at all. Evolutionists may project that 'sentient' or intelligent life evolved via mutation, meaning that it is organic and not spiritual, to explain away any need for a creator. There is no evidence that this has happened...or even that there is enough time (even with billions of years) for this to occur.



Evolution and the observations, the theories to explain the observations are all fine. Scientific study is a good thing. It just won't stand as the 'explanation' for why the world is the way it is. To believe that, you'd have to believe that people are the pinnacle of all evolution...that we are the the greatest and the best of all people. Just isn't the observation I have made.
killdeaddotcom
2010-09-19 02:31:37 UTC
The true answer here is that they simply don't want to accept evolution as a fact because to do so would fly in the face of their beliefs. The reason they don't want to accept it is almost certainly because of cognitive dissonance. When you have believed for several years, nay, your entire life that the world is 6-10 thousand years old and that man walked with dinosaurs; then it is difficult to admit that you were wrong about such a large and expansive concept. Because it makes people feel uncomfortable that they might be wrong about something, they invariably attempt to supress the knowledge and attach themselves to alternate theories in an attempt to eliminate any doubt they might have. However truth doesn't simply vanish and one of three options will occur:



1) That they will live the rest of their lives believing that evolution is a lie.

2) That they will adopt a theory that refutes the concept of evolution.

3) That they will admit they were wrong and accept evolution.



Since I, personally, have witnessed evolution occuring, I'm almost certain that number 2 is not possible. That leaves the first option which is essentially denial of what is fact, and the third option which is acceptance of a fact. That choice is going on in their minds every single time they discuss evolution and assess the evidence. Never forget that. While cognitive dissonance is extremely difficult to move past, it can happen.
Bill S
2010-09-19 02:45:06 UTC
No scientific principles are "right".



Every scientific principle ever deduced is the result of "observation".



Quantum physics tells us that the very act of observing something affects the experiment... and there is no way to avoid this.



You can fire electrons at a wall with 2 slits in it. Whether the electron goes through the right or left slit can only be determined by observing each individual electron and recording which slit it went through.



The interesting thing is...



If you don't observe each individual electron to determine which slit it goes through, it goes through slit A, slit B, both slits, and neither slit...



ALL AT THE SAME TIME.



In other words, all different outcomes happen... until you observe it. Only then does it make a choice.



What I'm trying to say is...



Evolution is science. It can't be proven with observation.



God is faith. It can't be proven with observation.



Nothing can be proven with observation, because the very act of observing something affects the outcome at the quantum level.



So...



Until we come up with something better than the scientific method, evolution... or God for that matter... will never be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.



So why bother?



You believe what you believe.



I believe what I believe.



Chances are, we're both wrong because our beliefs are based on observations.



Is that amazing enough for you?
Lighting the Way to Reality
2010-09-19 03:45:34 UTC
Creationists don't understand anything about evolution. That is apparent from their arguments. It is also apparent that they get their arguments from idiotic and nonsensical creationist web sites and books.





That is shown quite well by @Bloodhound's posting, and @AndiGravity did us a service in refuting a good part of that posting. However, he didn't refute the first part, which I did in response to a recent question that @Bloodhound posted in which he used those same arguments. See my answer here.



https://answersrip.com/question/index?qid=20100918183941AATQeW4&cp=2



As for @Bloodhound's comments about prehistoric hominids, most of them were misrepresentations. I will take one example.



@Bloodhound: "Java man was a gibbon (a monkey)."



In the first place, a gibbon is an ape, not a monkey.



In the second place, Java man was found on the island of Java in 1891. It was the first of many fossil specimens of Homo erectus that have been found. Homo erectus is not a gibbon.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_erectus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_erectus#Individual_fossils

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkana_Boy
AndiGravity
2010-09-19 02:25:29 UTC
Well, it could always be projection. We tend to take our own faults and impose them on other people. Anti-evolution folk, so to speak, usually don't base their beliefs on observation, but rather on arbitrary decisions. So, they assume those who advance the Theory of Evolution do, as well.



However, I think it's something more than that. I think it has to do with the fact they don't want to admit the Theory of Evolution is our explanation of the observed facts because they have presupposed their own point of view to be true without checking the facts first, and if they admit the Theory of Evolution arises from the facts instead of being a presupposition that tries to force the facts to fit it, they have to then implicitly admit their own point of view is not factual...



Or to put it more bluntly, they would have to admit they're wrong, and they don't want to do that.



Addendum:



I'm sorry, I can't let Bloodhound's pack of lies go.



1. The Earth's magnetic field does not decay at a constant rate, so it would not have been strong enough to "liquefy the earth just 20,000 years ago". This is especially true since the Earth's magnetic field GENERATES NO HEAT. That's because the Earth's magnetic field is not generated by an electrical current, but rather by the dynamic forces of the Earth's mantle and core rotating. No heat is produced by it, not even enough to melt all that ice sitting at the poles where the magnetic field is strongest.



2. So what's your point? They could have accumulated in that period of time several billion years ago and been sitting around in the oceans ever since, too, and they'd still be at the same levels we find today.



3. Topsoil neither accumulates nor erodes at a constant rate, and there certainly isn't a uniform eight inch layer spread across the globe. In deserts you will find virtually none, in floodplains you will find dozens of feet of it. In fertile areas with lots of plant growth such as forests and jungles you will also find thicker layers because of the amount of life constantly dying off, decaying, and being mixed in with the soil to form richer soil. Rain and wind erosion, as well as movement by plant and animal life, geological upheaval and subsidence, etc, etc, etc all play a part in removing topsoil as well, so the process is not constant in one direction only, but rather an ongoing process in which topsoil levels change at a nonuniform rate over long periods of time, and we have known this for decades.



4. The moon is approximately 384,000 km distant from the Earth and recedes at a current rate of about 3.8 centimeters a year. That means thirty thousand years ago, the moon would have been 114,000 centimeters closer to the Earth. That, by the way, is equal to 1.14 kilometers for those who don't want to do the conversion. So, thirty thousand years ago, the moon would have been 383,998.86 kilometers away, on average, rather than 384,000 kilometers. Before anyone asks, it would have been 171,000 kilometers or so closer to the Earth 4.5 billion years ago at its current rate of recession, but we know the Moon is actually receding faster today than it did in the past. So, next BS argument...



5. The Sun loses about four trillion metric tons of mass per second, which is a lot by our standards, but given that the Sun contains 99.84% of the matter in the Solar System, is only a drop in the bucket for it. How trivial is the amount of mass the Sun actually loses to its total mass? At four trillion tons a second, it would take 160 billion years to lose just one percent of its mass. Given that it's only five billion years old, the amount of matter it's lost is trivial.



6. And? Human beings don't have a lot of natural enemies, either, but they don't live on for more than a hundred years or so. Large tortoises and turtles lack our technology and are subject to natural predation, but have lifespans that frequently double ours. On the other hand, I have two very well kept mice with no enemies whatsoever, and I assure you they will not live to be two years old. Different lifeforms have different lifespans. The fact there don't seem to be sequoia trees older than four thousand years does nothing more than suggest the trees may have a natural lifespan of less than four thousand years. If you want to find an older organism, go look at some of the really old bristlecone pines or the creosote bushes in the deserts of the American southwest, or the quaking aspen trees, the oldest colony of which appears to be at least 80,000 years old at this point.



For Pete's sake, do some actual research and stop relying on one shoddy, biased tome as the basis for your "facts".
guitarrman45
2010-09-19 02:30:18 UTC
How can evolution be an observation when they say it takes millions of years to evolve to something. And there are no fossils that prove evolution. There is no written record of evolution.
2010-09-19 02:38:24 UTC
It's like trying to argue we don't fall down when we jump isn't it?

Isn't that example is too much?!



oh oh...after what u said, u made me think "what the hell was I thinking..how come the creation was created?!!!" damn I was sooo stupid



observation with a set of rules explaining the observation....MOHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HEHE
Ragnar
2010-09-19 02:31:24 UTC
No it isn't an observation, it is a conspiracy, a conspiracy I tell you!!!!



A conspiracy done by those who cavort with the horned one. Charles Russell Wallace and Alfred Darwin were strumpets of Beelzebub!!!
Light and Truth
2010-09-19 02:24:43 UTC
Evolution has never been observed....the fruit fly. Change is always a mutation and hence, by physics, a degradation in any species. natural selection is not correlated to evolution. These scientist need money and they continue to put it out there. I am getting tired of it.
i am dog
2010-09-19 02:25:18 UTC
people get crazy when their beliefs are threatened, don't they?



funny, cuz we all change our beliefs many times over a lifetime and manage to live with our new selves without shunning our old selves.
i aint know
2010-09-19 02:44:57 UTC
Something coming from nothing is only observed when a miracle is happening .



that's why it blows mans mind when it happens
Bloodhound
2010-09-19 02:27:29 UTC
I am anti-evolution and I believe that we have a historical record that takes us right back to Creation which shows us that God made humans as humans.



All through history evolution has been discredited by scientists.



Darwin understood that his beliefs were not scientific.



He wrote;



“I am quite conscious that my speculations run beyond the bounds of true science . . . . It is a mere rag of an hypothesis with as many flaw(s) and holes as sound parts.”

Charles Darwin to Asa Gray, cited by Adrian Desmond and James Moore, Darwin, )New York: W.W. Norton and Company, 1991) p. 456, 475).



And scientists spent the next 150 years proving him right (i.e. that his speculations ran beyond the bounds of true science) by disproving his ideas.

First, 4 of Darwin's contemporaries challenged Darwin's idea;



1. Charles Lyell (1797 – 1875) wrote "No geologists, who are in possession of all the data now established respecting fossil remains, will for a moment contend for the doctrine in all its detail, as laid down by the great chemist to whose opinions we have referred. But, naturalists, who are not unaquainted with recent discoveries, continue to defend the ancient doctrine in a somewhat modified form. (The Principles of Geology Ch 9 pg. 145 par 2)

2. Gregor Mendel (1822-1884) conducted experiments with peas which showed that one species could not transmute into another one. (The Evolution Handbook - TEH p. 20)

3. Louis Pasteur (1822-1895) disproved the theory of spontaneous generation (i.e. life cannot arise from non-living materials). (TEH p. 20)

4. August Friedrich Leopold Weismann (1834-1914) cut of the tails of 901 young white mice in 19 successive generations, yet each new generation was born with a full-length tail. (TEH p. 20)

Then, in 1953 Stanley Miller sparked a non-oxygen mixture of gases for a week and produced some microscopic traces of non-living amino acids and proved that the act of producing amino acids would produce right-handed amino acids which clog the body machinery and kill the life form (TEH p. 265).



When scientists examine the theory of evolution as it relates to their respective areas of expertise which include; astronomy, biology, geology, physics, paleontology, genetics, botany, etc. they come up with some interesting facts that refute The Theory of Evolution.



For example,



1. The Earth's Electromagnetic field is decreasing by half every 1400 years and would have liquefied the earth just 20,000 years ago. (TEH p. 139)

2. Of the 51 primary elements contained in seawater, 20 could have accumulated in their present concentrations in 1,000 years or less, 9 additional elements in no more than 10,000 years, and 8 others in no more than 100,000 years. (TEH p. 148)

3. Topsoil accumulates at the rate of about 1 inch per 300 to 1,000 years and there is an average of about 8 inches of topsoil on the earth. (TEH p. 145)

4. The Moon moves farther and farther away from the earth each year and would have been close enough to crash into the earth less than 30,000 years ago. (TEH p. 134)

5. The Sun is shrinking and would have been so large and so hot only 50,000 years ago that it would have caused the oceans to boil. (TEH p. 128)

6. The giant sequoias of California have no known enemies exept man . . . they live on century after century . . . yet they are never older than 4,000 years. (TEH p 149)

Yet, the beat goes on and it's living proponents continue to claim it is scientific.

Darwin sat on his findings for more than two decades and I think people of the evolutionary persuasion prefer that we believe that he was being cautious but when you read his books you get the feeling that he was searching for the truth among alot of bad ideas and hoping that the proof would eventually materialize. He thought people with small hands could work with their hands and that this would result in big handed babies. He theorized 'an organ affected by the environment would respond by giving off particles that he called gemmules. These particles supposedly helped determine hereditary characteristics. The environment would affect an organ; gemmules would drop out of the organ; and the gemmules would travel to the reproductive organs, where they would affect the cells.' (TEH p. 27) Since he didn't know about DNA he was convinced they would find a fossil of an animal that would show the transition from one animal into another. In his way of thinking, a fish fin would grow just a little bit longer in one fish, that fish would meet another fish with the longer more desirable fin, they would have a baby with the bigger fin, the fin would eventually grow into an arm, etc. a fish would become an amphibian, an amphibian would become a reptile, etc. etc. and somehow the gemmules would turn the monkey into a man. I think he was waiting for the proof, hoping someone would find one of these mythical transitional, half-fish, half-amphibian creatures which they call 'missing links', but they didn't find on in Darwin's lifetime and they have collected and catalogued over 100 million fossils of 250,000 species since and still not found one. (TEH p. 423)

They want you to think they have some! When I was a kid in the 60s I remember reading about the missing links that they had found in the books in my second grade library. Piltdown man, Java man, Nebraska man. But, none of them were 'real' missing links. Piltdown was a hoax. Java man was a gibbon (a monkey). Nebraska man was a pig. Today they tell us about Neanderthal man who is human, Lucy who is a monkey, Arvi who is another monkey, etc., etc., etc. Oh, well.

As far as I am concerned they can still refer to Darwin as the Father of Evolution but I doubt that he would want the title if he knew what our scientists know today since he wasn't really that sure and DNA would have caused him to pitch his gemmule theory but he probably shouldn't get it since he wasn't the first person to come up with the idea. Oh, perhaps you didn't know that the first person to begin thinking ABG (Anything But God) was Anaximander (610-546 BC). Back then they called it The Philosophy of Evolution.
khard
2010-09-19 02:22:08 UTC
They create artificial boundaries (i.e. macroevolution), even though speciation has been observed. The beauty is that they won't even define macroevolution for you.
chieko
2010-09-19 02:23:33 UTC
so now evolution is an "observation"? why can't evolution folk get their story straight with each other as to what evolution is...



hmmm....sounds familiar doesn't it? ...lol...
2010-09-19 02:21:33 UTC
Because god is also an observation.



An invisible one without a speck of evidence to support it...but delusion is a powerful tool, too.
2010-09-19 02:24:05 UTC
1. evolution is real

2. god is real
Abc
2010-09-19 02:42:04 UTC
Rasa, I don't think your anger is constructive.
Sir Thomas the Pretty Good
2010-09-19 02:20:47 UTC
Although micro-evolution(environmental adaptation) can be seen, macro-evolution cant. Macro-evolution cant happen, never has, and never will.



Its the proposed study of species transitioning from one species to the other.
2010-09-19 02:21:11 UTC
How many times have you personally observed something evolving? Is there any physical, repeatable evidence or is it just speculation?
Ishmael
2010-09-19 02:20:24 UTC
They have gullible, non-cognitive brains.


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
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