Question:
Question for Atheists?
Mike
2006-07-11 15:31:43 UTC
I'm fairly new to Yahoo Answers, therefore new to this "Ask a question, receive a debate" thing, so please take it easy on me. But I do have a question for people who do not believe in God. Not because I'm trying to prove something but because I simply don't know what you do believe regarding to how this whole thing began.
My thing is this.Say the "science" professors are correct. Say this all began by a particle of gas, an atom, a molecule, whatever. How did that come into existence? Did nothing collide with nothing to form something? To me, the only explanation to the origin of a finite being is an infinite being. Who made the molecule, atom?
What do Atheists believe? Do they believe in any form of higher being at all? Do they believe that when you die, you cease to exist altogether,for the rest of eternity?
Thanks ahead to the ones that answer sincerely.
21 answers:
anonymous
2006-07-11 15:34:03 UTC
Bing Bang ... stuff blows up, flys away for a while, then gravity pulls it all back together into a huge balck hole, which leds to another big bang.



Death is death. You pass out and do not wake up.



The purpose of life is to enjoy it, and to make sure your children do it as well.
wrathpuppet
2006-07-12 01:10:12 UTC
This one is actually quite easy, if you are willing to accept the answer.



We don't know.



It's as simple as that. Sadly, the faithful often see our admission that we do not have all the answers as a failure on our parts. The truth is that we never claimed to have all the answers. All we have said is that just because something is unknown does not mean that it is unknowable. A hundred and fifty years ago the causes of infection were not known. It took the invention of the microscope to prove why many new mothers died shortly after giving birth.



Right now we lack the technology and knowledge base to fully understand and comprehend the origin of the universe. The only thing I can say with certainty is that religion is too divided, with too little consensus to have a handle on the truth. Not every creation myth can be right. And now, knowing what we do know about the universe and the age of the Earth I think that we can dismiss all creation stories as merely metaphor and allegory.



So, we don't know. I hope you'll take this as a humble admission and not leap at us as some others are wont to do. Often times this statement is received with cries of "Aha! So you don't have all the answers." The fact is that atheists and science never claimed to. Having all the answers has always been the claim of the faithful, not of us.
anonymous
2006-07-11 22:45:59 UTC
The main point is, that religions were invented by the humen about 5000-8000 years ago, and it is a fact.



Fact also is, that the solar system`s every step is proven by science.



The minor fact, that scientist can`t explain where the first bacteria came into universe, does not leave any room for god theories, because they were invented for the different reasons: to collect food supplies from farmers by church taxes and threatened them by killing if not given to church.



When a human being dies, -Life-it is over. If the body is burried without burning, then the bacteria`s of the corps continue living, but it is only a bacteria. Not a soul or anything.



There is no higher beings, there is no gods, there is no ghosts.

It is all a full fairytale, and intelligent and realistic people can not be fooled by that kind of things.



Religions are these days commonly used as a shield for real intentions.
injanier
2006-07-12 00:06:25 UTC
I'm not exactly an atheist, more an agnostic with Deist tendencies, but that's probably close enough. One opinion I've formed from observing these debates is that religious people have less tolerance for uncertainty and ambiguity than non-theists. You ask "where did the first atom come from?" Science says, "we don't know, but we're working on it", and I think that's cool, let me know what you find out. Religion says "simple, God did it" and believers are relieved at not having that uncertainty hanging over them.



When people talk to me about religion, I see it as arising out of their need for answers. To me, that kind of thinking closes the mind to the true wonders of existence. It led people to reject heliocentrism in the 17th century, and it leads them to reject modern cosmology today.



To me, an infinite or circular sequence of natural causality is at least as reasonable as the existence of an eternal and all powerful being who not only created it, but expects us believe in a collection of middle-eastern stories dating back to the bronze age.



As for what happens after death, I'm sure no one on this side knows. I'd like to think that consciousness is eternal, but even if it is, I suspect it goes on in a very different form from what we are now experiencing. On the other hand, there was a time in the past when this consciousness was not aware, it's not too hard to think there will come a like time in the future. Here again, religion offers certainty: you'll be reunited with your ancestors, you meet Jesus, you get 72 virgins; don't worry your little head, just follow these rules and put money in the plate.



The existence of so many competing religions suggests that they're all made of the same cloth. If you've found one that works for you, that's your path. That's okay , but it's not mine.
tehabwa
2006-07-11 22:48:44 UTC
When you ask "Who made the molecule, atom" you are begging the question. The 'who' assumes it must have been created by someone. This is exactly what we do NOT believe.



Yes, atheists reject the idea that there's some higher being (otherwise, they'd be theists, not atheists). When you die, you are bye-bye. That is, you, as a person; of course your body remains.



There's a movement among atheists to call themselves 'brights'. You could google these terms, also skeptics, and probably find some sites. If you are respectful, and don't try to convert (believe me, we've heard it all before) they would probably answer more of your questions, or at least turn you on to good reading material. There are countless books by former believers on why they no longer believe.
confusedgirl
2006-07-11 22:41:15 UTC
The reason that people believe in a god is because they do not want to believe that when they die, they go nowhere. People want to think that they have a purpose or meaning in life and that death will not stop that for them. I am an athiest, and I believe in the logical apsect of everything. When a body dies, it decomposes and that's the end of that. Unfortunately, humans have strong emotions of love, fear, hate, etc. It is hard for most people to face the true side of the story.



As for the "beginning of time" deal, nobody living on this earth was there to see how the earth was "created" or the universe for that matter. A lot of people choose the easy way out and believe that a "higher being" must have done it. In my opinion, those people are just not interested in the logical/scientific side of it.
reverenceofme
2006-07-11 22:46:09 UTC
I don't know how life began. I am open to the idea that a higher source "created" whatever it was that began life, but I don't see that source as being a god.



What makes me an atheist is that I don't believe in a personal god. I don't think it is possible or reasonable to think that a higher being, if there is one, would be interested in the tiresome workings of human lives. It is very self centered to think that "god" would care at all about you, me, or anyone else.



I have no problem with the belief that there may be a higher source of power, but I don't think we could ever understand it, and I think religion is a sad excuse for understanding.



I do believe that death is the end of all things, and that life has no defined reason. I don't believe in sin or creationism, and I think that Christianity holds no truth. If you look at any religion from a completely secular standpoint, as I do, they cease to make any sense. I my explanation has helped you, please email me with any questions.
anonymous
2006-07-11 22:41:26 UTC
How difficult is it for you to ask yourself the same question? When you say it is so hard to believe an Atom collided with nothing to create the very first creation, do you not rationalize...'Well, how was 'God' created? How did 'He' begin?' For me, it is so much difficult to believe in 'God' always 'existing' than to believe in the Big Bang theory.

As difficult and depressing it is to believe, our life and existence ceases when we die and rot in the ground. I know it is difficult to accept the end, but that is it. There is no magical city paved in gold high in the clouds. It's hard to fathom the end, but we all die just like everything else.
c_wag03
2006-07-11 22:37:47 UTC
Well, see the same question occurs to me about God...how did he come into existence? You say the explanation is an "infinite" being, but if that is acceptable, why is an infinite atom not acceptable to you? Why couldn't there just be an infinite "substance" called energy....maybe God is energy....



By the way, I'm not an atheist...I'm one of those wayaward souls unsure what to believe.
anonymous
2006-07-11 22:37:35 UTC
I understand you're new, honey, but you didn't notice the 14,000 similar questions that popped up when you were typing this?



I'm agnostic, and I trust science. The whole biblical god makes zero sense to me. I like that science leaves room for further discovery, new information. Religion doesn't do that. It may not have all of the answers, but at least science LOOKS.
XYZ
2006-07-11 22:36:03 UTC
You should ask the science professors. And remove the quotation marks - it gives away your agenda.



I believe in many things. But atheists have many beliefs. The only one thing we have in common is a lack of belief in God.



I'm still not certain about your sincerity but you can e-mail me by clicking on my avatar if you want more information.
Big J
2006-07-11 22:47:06 UTC
well i can ask you how can you believe in something that came from someone tripping on berries thousands of years ago?? how can you believe in something that cant be proovin? they have proven how to make life from nothing with the use of hydrogen, heat, oxygen, and other molecules, and how it came to be... their is NOTHING to prove that "god" exists and any of that biblical stuff except for places.nothing........... your basing your thought off of old physics where that kind of physics had been proving to be wrong, along with everything else that we have thought to be true.... "string theory"... i really dont aim to disprove your belief in god, i actually envy you... i with i could put all my problems on something that i cant see, and actually believe in it...couldn't the bible just be a "rule and story book" so that in old times people wouldn't pillage and rape in fear of a "god".... none of it makes a bit of sense to me... and yes... i have read the whole bible before..., i wanted to try and see what the big deal was about it...
yupi666
2006-07-12 03:26:26 UTC
its called the "great unification theory" look it up, its too long and complicated to deal with in yahoo answers, and to get to understeand from a moment to another, if you really want to understand it you will need at least a couple years of study, but you dont have to be a scientist either, its related to the distinction of cuantic particles (quarks, bosons, etc.) at different temperatures and speeds; it helps a lot if you learn some "string" theory
anonymous
2006-07-11 22:50:05 UTC
Atheism just means a lack of belief in gods. So every answer you get is going to be different. But I think your question basically states a false dichotomy or a strawman argument. There are many possibilities other than nothing forming something ( which is nonsensical on the face of it, or a god which I think is also nonsensical but because it leads to infinite regression.



First we do not know if time has an infinite past or not. Arguments steming from the first law of thermodynamics that total mass energy cannot be created or destroyed fail to consider that gravitational potential energy is negative, and that matter/energy is created by the expansion as long as it is balanced by an equal amount of negative gravitational potential energy. In fact the total sum of mass/energy in nature may well add up to zero.



People make a severe mistake when they think of the big bang singularity as a creation event. Time is an aspect of the universe not something it is embedded in. The big bang event is a special event, maybe a first event, but that no more means it is a creation event than the number zero is a creation event for the integers. After all you don't think of the north pole as a creation event for latitude.



However I feel that ultimately the issue of whether the universe has an infinite past is irrelevent to the question of whether it is designed. The question really revolves around the reason why we see apparent complexity. If I was a programmer designing a simple Universe Representation , say on a computer. I could design either a universe with a finite or infinite past, It would be my choice to do so. Similarly Nature can be based on something simple, and either have an infinite past or not. Also arguing that the universe has an infinite past does not free you from the need to answer why the physics we observe are so fine-tuned for our existence.



The god hypothesis tries to address the question of the origin of apparent complexity by hypothesizing a greater complexity. Of course this leads to infinite regression. Now you have the bigger question of explaning the orgin of this greater complexity. You have a bigger problem too. One cannot simply not explain the origin of complexity be proposing a preexisting complexity. That just leads to infinite regression.

Christians often are inconsistent here claiming nature must be created because it seems to be complex. But then when asked where their far more complex god comes from they say it "just is". This is merely special pleading and shows a refusal to examine the inconsistency in their admittedly poor argument.



We know from mathematics that something can appear to be designed without really being so. Just look at a fractal. The Mathematician Steven Cook proved a very very simple formula like Wolfram's rule 110 for example generates more apparent local complexity than is contained in the entire solar system.



We understand from mathematics how apparently complex systems come about and it is always due to selection effects. You take a simple but diverse set and select a complex subset from it. In order to do that you need a selecting agent. In the case of our universe we have a selecting agent. That selecting agent is our own existence.



The explaination is that reality is incredibly vast. Only in small apparently complex portions of that reality can beings such as ourselves evolve. It is not a coincidence, nor is it by chance we find ourselves in such a region. Instead it is a necessity.



It is a lot like the snowflake who finds himself in a snowstorm and concludes he was designed by a snow pixie. His argument is that the world is fine-tuned at the perfect temperature for snow to form. When in reality the world is vast and only in small portions of it can snowflakes form.



Or you can think of us as like a lottery winner who concludes there must be a cosmic cheater who rigged the lottery, when in fact there were millions of people buying lottery tickets and someone was bound to win.



Now that we have shown that a seemingly complex system does not need to be designed as long as it is part of a vast, diverse whole. How does that vast diverse whole come about. We obviously are getting into extremely difficult ideas here but several physicists are arguing that reality is based upon and indeed is, mathematics. By that they mean that reality consists of the class of necessarily true statements one can make about logical systems.



One physicist has even argued that the class of necessarily true statements one can make about logical systems is isomorphic ( mathematically identical ) to string theory. Basically arguing that nature is mathematically necessary. The reason it does not feel necessary is that we see so little of it, and that we see it from within itself rather than seeing it as it really is.



The idea that nature is based on mathematics has a long history going back to Plato. More recently physicists have put this idea in a much more modern setting. Max Tegmark in his "Theory of Everything" argues that nature is based on mathematics as do many more physicists. Christofel Schmidhuber argues that String Theory is isomorphic to math. Many other physicists have argued that math and physics are identical in other ways.



Mathematics according to this view just consists of that which must be necessarily true. Existence then is mathematics, and it just looks to us the way it does is because we see existence from a rather special place deep inside the muck of existence.



It looks fine-tuned because of our myopia. It is the way it is because it is necessary. Our necessity is not special. All necessities exist. Ours is just special to us.
sparkydog_1372
2006-07-11 22:37:17 UTC
since i am a pagan and not an athiest i can not answer your question. however i am wondering why you put the word science, as in "science" professors, in quotations. this implies that that perhaps you think science is false?
MC
2006-07-11 22:38:15 UTC
Your question is like 'the dog chasing it's tail.. if there's a God, Who made HIM? I'm not a 'pure' atheist...but i think 'mother nature' is a much better descriptor than 'God'
anonymous
2006-07-11 22:34:52 UTC
No only that "God" fellow can allegedly create something from nothing.



Normal people know that existence always existed. Or else we wouldn't call it existence.
Larissa
2006-07-11 22:56:51 UTC
If you ask this of Atheists, you must ask of Christians: "How did God come into existance?"
Krish
2006-07-11 22:35:20 UTC
NOPE

NOPE

NOPE

and i'm not an Atheist
Nikki
2006-07-11 22:34:03 UTC
no
anonymous
2006-07-11 22:57:15 UTC
The 'Big Bang', which occurred around 14.5 billion years ago, is not a matter of question or debate among scientists. However, there is considerable uncertainty about CAUSED the Big Bang. Presently, the answer is "we don't know, exactly." Despite that, though, there are several promising lines of inquiry. (Google for 'Lisa Randall', for example.)



Typically, the religiose appeal to a logical fallacy known as the 'argument from incredulity', which basically goes something like this: "I can't understand or even imagine how the universe could have originated from a small speck of something 14.5 billion years ago; therefore, god did it." From there, they go directly the the myths, superstitions, folk tales and delusions of a bunch of wandering Bronze Age goat herders, and declare that nonsense to be the 'TRUTH'. However, the scientific stand on this, as I said before, is "We don't know... yet." Science does not appeal to the supernatural.



This also brings up the idea of 'God of the Gaps', also known as 'The Divine Fallacy'. Here, god fills in the gaps in scientific knowledge... until science comes up with an answer and pushes god out. Here are two ways of looking at God of the Gaps... the first is pretty straight-forward... the second is kind of snide, and humerous.



God of the Gaps is the method of claiming God (or gods) exists by pointing to gaps in our present knowledge of how things work. For example, ancient Scandinavians who did not know what caused thunder and lightning chose to see them as evidence for their own chief deity, Thor, driving his chariot through the sky and hammering with Miolnir.



Present-day creationists and IDists employ the same method by claiming that our gaps in the knowledge of abiogenesis and evolution mean that an intelligent designer must have been involved.



The weakness of "God of the Gaps" methodology is that the existence of God is, of course, endangered every time scientists filled the gaps with knowledge. Howard J Van Till, a theistic evolutionist, warns against this risk, and proposes instead to see the whole of the evolutionary saga as a pointer to a creative and generous God, no gaps needed. Also, when science fills a gap in knowledge with observed facts, science is satisfied. Creationists, on the other hand, generally declare that, rather than filling a gap, a new piece of information simply generates two gaps, one on either side of the newly-established fact -- meaning that additional information is understood to diminish the observational base from which the theory of evolution derives, rather than to reinforce it, as more insightful commentators argue.



The God of the Gaps argument indicates enormous conceit because, by implication, a believer indicates that understanding of all there is, except those things God did, and therefore declares that a miracle is necessary to make him fail to understand. It needs hardly to be said that this belief system has little do to with observation, and much to do with blind belief in the unknown.



Some creationists (for example Werner Gitt, in Schuf Gott durch Evolution) try to refute this refutation of their arguments by saying that for them, God is not just a gap filler. But that is beside the point. For anyone switching to creationism because of the God of the Gaps argument, God would be. This is why the argument does not work.



****************************



Early in history Gods could be found everywhere. There were gods of the sea, gods of storms, gods of forests, gods of rivers, gods of cities, and probably gods of that place under the stairs where you can't quite reach, even though there's a really useful Hoover attachment back there somewhere. When monotheistic religions appeared, they attempted to congeal these diverse gods into a single, all-powerful God Of The Universe, like so many plastic soldiers melting into one lump under a magnifying glass on a sunny day. In the case of Judeo-Christianity, this God is Jehovah. [1]



Unfortunately, Jehovah seems to be shrinking. Melting, like the Wicked Witch after being brutally attacked with a bucketful of water. God, who once shook the planet, created stars, filled oceans and populated continents and coral reefs with everything from starfish to starfruit, seems to be suffering from a case of erosion that would put the ice-worn mountains of the North to shame.



Cosmology, geology and biology are the sciences that cover pretty much everything there is. (Okay, so physicists and chemists may pull rank, but the first three divide things up into handy packages.) God was once held responsible for creating the stars in their crystal sphere, for moving the sun around the Earth, for opening and closing the windows in the sky to let the rain and snow in. For placing comets, planets and supernovae as signs, portents and landing-lights for Wise Men on camels. For the perfect order and majesty of the clean and neatly-arranged Heavens.



Sadly, God had to relinquish his control when the telescope was invented. To hide his tracks He was careful to dirty up the cosmos with great clouds of alcohol and laughing gas, dirt, bits of broken rock, and all sorts of other untidy, disordered muck. To look at it now, you'd hardly know a guiding intelligence had any hand in it at all, so good a job was done of making it appear natural. Right down to leftover radiation from the (ho ho) Big Bang.



A similarly woeful tale can be told of biology. With the theory of evolution, the gradual piecing together of the fossil record and the discovery of DNA, the Lord no longer was able to carefully direct each individual sperm to its divinely-chosen eggs, to maintain control of the flow of genes each and every time anything reproduced. There was nothing left for him to do, which probably came as a relief, what with the slimy, messy, icky nature of... well, nature.



And so it went on. God was not getting further away - just smaller and smaller. The effect can be the same, in the right light. But old Jehovah was fading away, like one of those little chalky feeding blocks you drop in the fishtank before you go on holiday. ( Of course, God was not being nibbled by fish - that would be silly! )



Geology too. When nosey geologists started digging the ground up and peering too closely at what they found, God had no choice but to call it a day and fake a load of strata, fossils, ancient coastlines, coal deposits, drifted continents and all the other paraphernalia to make it look like the Earth was an extra few billion years old. Like a pile of sweets surrounded by four-year-olds, the Lord just kept getting smaller.



And that is where we find Him today. In the cracks and gaps in our scientific knowledge. Unlike God, scientists are not omniscient, and so there are still plenty of gaps for God to hide in, and be invoked as an ideal explanation at a moments notice. The inexorable progress of science, like a bulldozer on autopilot, is slowly filling in the gaps, making poor old Jehovah vacate them and find some even more obscure hiding place.



Science cannot explain THIS, they cry, That is sure proof of God's existence and cleverness. Look what we've found, they shout, the only possible explanation is our God (as defined in edition 27a of this particular translation of the Bible). How could anyone possibly argue with such damning evidence?!?



And yet the bulldozer grinds forward, pushing heaps of fresh knowledge and understanding into the hidey-holes where gods are to be found lurking like trolls under bridges.



Strangely enough, the people who espouse this sort of deity invariably fail to acknowledge that they are insulting the very omnipotent being whose existence they try to convince us of. To say that the world works perfectly well without divine intervention, except here, here, here and over there, is to say that God is a pretty shoddy builder. He is, it seems, unable to put together something without using magic god-glue to stop it falling to pieces. My son can do better than that with his Lego! By saying that God exists because of the cracks in the universe, what does that tell us about this God? That he is incompetent; he cannot finish the job he started; he’s a cowboy builder?



To use the God-Of-The-Gaps argument is to open up your poor old deity to scientific scrutiny. If you say that proof of your God can be shown by a particular unexplained phenomenon, you’re going to be in trouble when science gets round to examining and explaining that phenomenon. Does your God vanish or die, or just scuttle over to the next Gap, like some giant cockroach when the light is switched on?



Sometime, someday, most of the important gaps will be closed, and those remaining believers who rely on this form of argument will be heard saying "Ah, but what about the mating ritual of the Venezuelan Accordion Beetle, eh? You can't explain that with your stupid test tubes, can you? Bow down and praise the Lord in apology!” The remaining believers will have to fall back on good old ignorance ("Continental drift? What's that then?"), denial ("I wouldn't believe it even if you proved it to me!") or old-fashioned faith ("The world is really as I feel it ought to be, not as it is").



Far and few, far and few, are the gaps where the deities live.



© Adrian Barnett 1999


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
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