Question:
When someone asks "If everything needs a creator, then who created god?"?
Ginger Ninja
2007-05-21 05:54:54 UTC
The usual Christian answer to this question is that god exists outside time and space, that he does not need a creator, because he doesn't have a begining or an end. Not only does that contradict the rule "everything has a creator" , but if god doesn't need a creator, because he is infinite, then why should the universe need a creator? What makes you think the universe isn't infinite? Why is an infinite being more believable than an infinite universe?
34 answers:
Brian
2007-05-21 06:01:22 UTC
It's called the cosmological argument. It was first started by

Plato and Aristotle, not Christians.



The argument is that since the universe logically has a beginning, there must have been a first cause, which is outside of nature, which is infinite.



If you believe in a big bang theory, then that would have been the beginning. The second law of thermodynamics the universe is a closed system and does not have a means of re-energizing itself.



It is a contradiction to suggest that you can have a beginning or creation of something that is infinite.
?
2016-05-19 01:59:29 UTC
This problem was highlighted by the 14th Century theologian Thomas Aquinas, working from Aristotle. The argument is called the cosmological argument. Basically, everything in the universe is caused by something else. If that's the case, then causation would regress back infinitely and time would never have started, meaning, arguably that we could never get to this point in time. Thus, both said that we needed a cause which was, itself, uncaused, to set everything in motion. The flaw in the argument is that not everything is caused by something else. Within the world of quantum physics, it is possible for, say an electron and a positron to come into existence (thus technically nothing does because each cancels the other out), annihilate one another and leave behind gamma rays. Thus, arguably, energy can come from nothing. Hume argued that just because one thing follows another does not mean that one caused the other. He argued that you could not go back in time and demonstrate that the second action wouldn't have just happened anyway. The second flaw is the linear view of time. Time could simply be one large still image that occurs all at once. Thus, there is no need for causation and no need for a creator - and infinite regression could take place. In conclusion, assuming a creator, the creator did not need a cause. However, there is no God, so it is more than likely that the universe simply didn't have a cause. I hope that helps.
rose-dancer
2007-05-21 06:06:53 UTC
Only Someone/Thing that defines the supreme perfection and expression of Being, or who initiated Existence, could supercede the "rule" that "everything has a creator"; thus, by definition, God/Creator could easily supercede that "rule".



I have no idea if the Universe will exist through Eternity or not; but I do think that the "Big Bang Theory" has enough credence and evidence to be believable; thus, according to that theory, the Universe DID have a point of origination. Personally, I believe that point was God, but of course, Science will never be able to prove that.



I don't think an infinite Being is more believable than an infinite Universe; it just makes more sense to me, and resonates more with the core of my being. But if it makes more sense to someone else to deny God's existence, and acknowledge the Universe as self-formed and self-sufficient, that is their right. Each person must follow his/her heart/soul, wherever that leads...be informed, make a choice, be confident in your belief.



Peace.
2007-05-21 06:05:18 UTC
Because the idea that the earth and life upon the earth is some cosmic accident is about as possible as me throwing a bunch of gears, springs and other watch parts into a clothes dryer, turning it on and eventually pulling out a completely assembled, working Swiss watch.



The complexities and intricacies of how the world and life works is far to complex to simple chance. If the universe was infinite then those things that are of the universe such as stars, planets, even people would also be infinite. But the fact is that everything in the universe has a beginning and and end. God exists outside of our time and space.



Everything does have a creator and that creator is God.
vital_moors
2007-05-21 06:06:30 UTC
Who needs a creator?

It is just a concept?

Does it makes you less or more happy to know that there is creation or evoltion? For me not.

Nothing or nobody is infinte... everyhting is changing... And if there would be an infinite God he could not take part in the finite world, without becoming finite...

So don't let us make problems out of this sort methaphysical questions... this sort of questions doesn't involve our life and doesn't make us happier or better persons. These opinions and visions only create discussing, fighting, devision between people.
bigman2ab
2007-05-21 06:08:16 UTC
Where is your source for the statement 'everything has a creator' ....??? That is absurd....?? At some point the theory has to break down and stop...it's only common sense... ?



You cannot get something from nothing..? So the 'Universe' or beyond...however many levels beyond that there may be... at some point it has to have all come from somewhere...otherwise we are just all a total contradiction ?



Problem is our human minds cannot comprehend anything beyond what we can see...if you can truely free your mind from needing scientific or factual/physical proof of something, then you would find everything in life easier to understand... why we are here, what our purpose is....etc..etc..



If you blinker yourself into 'everything is infinite', then I feel for you.... as you live in a world of your own where nothing has meaning or purpose....if everything is 'infinite', then where did 'infinity' itself come from..???
2007-05-21 06:05:29 UTC
There is no rule that states that "everything needs a creator", ,just as there is no rule that states "God must make sense". God is a faith-based system. You just have to believe. If it were easier, there would be no merit in getting to Heaven. There would be no hardship or sacrifice. I believe in God, therefore I believe in His word. If it tells me that He always has been, is, and always will be, then I believe it. If it tells me that God created man and the universe, I will have no scruples believing that too.
2007-05-21 12:41:53 UTC
Haven't heard this question a 1000 times, another well thought out question by more tea. Did you get up this morning and decide "I think I will ask the same question someone else has asked a hundred different times and pretend it's my own." Have you ever heard of faith, I know it is beyond your limited understanding, but it exist. Why do you care what other people beleive in, no one cares what you think.
asabur2002
2007-05-21 08:14:38 UTC
Best wishes to all.

This universe is like the biggest library in the world one can imagine containing billions of books in thousands of languages living or dead telling about the time passed and prophecies and we r like a young child who even dont know well how to read and write in his mother language and enters this library.Now the arrangement will surprise him the huge size of building and drawers will surprise him.He will wonder about things around him and will end with only astonishment.A visitor will see him surprised tell him basics in the style understandable for him that will be not more then just a childs story.And now child will start thinking and imagining.this is what we r .We human beings in this universe.We have books to guide us so better to rely on them .But it can be possible that one is created by itself and every thing is running in a perfect manner under stead fast rules by itself.If its seem silly a cow is born by no where .come and milks herself in a pot and that milk is boiled by itself and comes to your mouth flying in the air then beleive me the idea of no god is more silly then this.





Human are always in quest for knowledge no matter what it costs their lives, their money or their soul.religions are source of answering the questions that are beyond human understanding but again in a way that these answers r understood only on a specific time.All religious books have so many scientific and general prophecies to ascertain that these books r not from human source these r beyond human capability.(Its another discussion that some human were dumb enough to use these books for their personal temporary benefits and changing their texts and damaging the value and usefulness of these books).We r trying to answer the creation of creator but// have we understood all the creations around us ?? if u dont understand the things very close to you with which you interact daily how come u attempt to understand the thing that u cannot imagine at all.to A3 year old kid his parents r guides to trust .If he doesnt he will hurt himself or bla bla.same is for human being religion is the only guide we got.



Dont ponder over things which u have not seen believe in what you r listening about them and seems to u reasonable.



Because u r just a human who cannot see beyond few kilometers in an unlimited universe and one who cannot understand his or spouse most of time
angel
2007-05-21 06:04:18 UTC
Wow, that is a BIG question. Unfortunately, no one can answer it. I remember asking my mom this question when I was just a little kid and am still wondering after many years of being a Christian. It is beyond our scope of understanding. That is why it is called "faith". Yeah, there is that word again. But to believe in God takes faith and many unanswered questions. It is OK to God that we ask questions and probe because in our searching we often times develop the faith to believe in this God. Have fun searching for God it can be an interesting journey. Blessings.
Firefox
2007-05-21 06:09:43 UTC
You're getting really deep with a question like that!



On the one hand God is a creation of man, as away of giving an answer to the unknown.



Or on the other hand we are a creation of God through evalution, so he can find some answers.
2007-05-21 06:41:44 UTC
Basically, what we do is to leap to an opinion - by whatever means - and then use our brains to defend that position.

It seems to me that we'd probably be a good deal happier if we just let each other have their own opinions . We sure aren't going to change them.

If you're happy, why should I want to change that?

(For those who say, 'It's for the good of your immortal soul'. Show 'em the door.)

Unless, of course, you just enjoy a good argument - in which case, ignore everything I've just said. Why not? My missis does!



'Walks off thinking, I wonder how many people I've offended now'.



Jon C
Yasmin H
2007-05-21 06:00:48 UTC
Maybe an unknown creator created God?



Aliens perhaps?



This is a silly question, so I've given a silly answer because everyone knows that religion is full of contradictions and statements that can't be backed up by fact.



Religious people don't believe in evolution, so how do they explain fossils, dinosaurs and all the other stuff?
2007-05-21 06:03:02 UTC
Do you believe the universe is infinite? Can you really take the enormous leap that says the universe created itself? God is unique. The only thing that can be remotely compared to Him is time. But when time finally bows before His throne, and eternity begins, all will know that God is God, creator of all things, and unique from His creation.
2007-05-21 07:47:19 UTC
Christians believe what is written in the bible. FULL STOP. For them to question anything would more than likely be a sin.....so they don't!



It seems so much easier to believe it's all a made up story than believe what they are trying to tell us. Especially with their hocus pocus ramblings, endless quotes and near enough speaking in tongues!
chersa
2007-05-21 06:04:38 UTC
Hmm...either I was born from the earth. This big whopping piece of land produced me, all the events that happened too create this land is 1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000

and every single event that happened after that have the same Odds.

and the average person cannot win the lottery.



Or something created all of this...That just so happened that these 1/10000000000000000000000000000000000000

odds created everything so perfectly. The perfect plants that make oxygen. The perfect animals the breathe the oxygen and blow out carbon dioxide...That the Plants just so happen to need.

The water that is just so happens we need to drink or we will die...and so on...



Everything was too perfect for no creator.
f4bulous1985
2007-05-21 06:14:36 UTC
Limit 1/Time= approaches 0 but never goes to 0

Time> infinity
2007-05-21 06:03:39 UTC
God does not exist , jesus did but was nothing more than a man who left a huge inprint on that particular time which has got out of control. Imagine if osama bin laden was doing what he was doing back then he wouldnt be looked on in the same way and not as a terroist.(just to clarify i aint a muslim terroist im white english atheist). If jesus returned today and said "i have returned my children" wed just tell him to get in line with all the other looneys or go on Jerry Springer.
?
2007-05-21 06:23:51 UTC
Oh, I thought this was common knowledge already. Not everybody knows this?



Oh well.



Big-God created God. Bigbig-God created Big-God.



You're probably gonna ask where this ends? Yeah, don't ask!
Bargain-Sheek Chic
2007-05-21 06:18:33 UTC
First of all, God is not a THING, he is a spirit, an omniscient spirit. Second of all, yes he exists outside of time and space- where do you think we will go after death, one can't possibly fathom dissapearance of his/her soul- think about it.
pugjw9896
2007-05-21 06:28:02 UTC
The universe is basically dust and rocks..lots of...

But God is a THINKING BEING.

Rocks are not.

Chalk and cheese...
Evo
2007-05-21 05:59:07 UTC
Er, yeah, er, I'd really like to give an intellectual answer, but the only thing I can come up with right now is : what colour knickers are you wearing? wahahahahhaha
me again
2007-05-21 06:37:41 UTC
do yer head in girl. just believe in he who created all things you gonna die anyway just like all of us who are born to die, just think where am i going, why am i only here if God willing,

cos you are no question,
colesey72
2007-05-21 05:58:37 UTC
exactly....its just a typical religious attitude that i am right...end of question no matter whether the answer makes sense or not. i have no issue with people believing in god....my issue is with people chastisting those that dont.
2007-05-21 06:01:28 UTC
I always love this.



1. use pseudologic (like 'everything needs a creator')

2. get challenged

3. switch away from pseudologic and go for full-on wild assumption and lies.
Sick Puppy
2007-05-21 06:01:51 UTC
You're asking questions that cannot realistically be answered by anyone.
2007-05-21 06:19:05 UTC
I did.



It was a mistake and I deeply regret it.



It won't happen again.
Julia Sugarbaker
2007-05-21 06:04:27 UTC
It's a convenient cop-out answer-a way to avoid explaining yourself. Why bother coming up with facts when you can just say 'it's faith' , or 'it's supernatural'.
2007-05-21 06:01:59 UTC
"As man tries to distance himself from his nature, he changes what he believes to more closely resemble what he wishes to become."
2007-05-21 06:00:50 UTC
if there is nothing and then there is something=it has age-anything with age has a creator-before that it didnt exist.

God always was-he is infinate! I once was where you are today just couldnt get it!



this helped me-when you know the creator -creation is easy to believe=good point-and proof its not in the genes its in the jeans a choice



what helped me get delivered=there is an answer to your question -and as with me once -there is pride some call it gay pride-yet goes beyond to demanding approval here-did they ever hear of salvation-the answer to your question, not religion -salvation-I like your honesty too.

this came from another question but it has the answer for you.



If you lead a perfect life and tell one lie-no matter how much good you do you have sinned against Jesus-if you lead 100 elderly ladies across the street-they will say how wonderful you are, but if you knock one down and let her get hit by a car-you go to jail-the good doesnt out weight the bad.



Jesus said except you repent and be born again you can not see the kingdom of heaven. John 3 & if you keep the whole law and break it in one point you have broken the law.



be carefull about this-satan comes as a creature of light to decieve destroy and kill-if you know your going to die or someone does they should serve Jesus even more till that day.



and praying for you from the question you withdrew-about what your going through



this may inspire you too=truely I am sorry for things I have done in the past living in sin. Yet today I am living my life dream-traveling sharing the gospel in Russia, Israel and more and living in the joy of Jesus salvation,

If I wasnt living this new life -I would regret what i never did because I had money as a rich Jewish guy, but was so empty I was going to commit suicide -money couldnt buy me happiness.



So I say they are equal as to what I would rather.



and this is what helped me to see the things to regret and how not to regret them anymore and live my life dream every day=some issues



this is dealing with these issues, and salvation is the answer to self confidence and marriage-never give up-I

this helped me alot too in this area=Romans 1 Some are unthankful to God and worship the created instead of the creator and are turned over to a reprobate mind to do what is unseamly.

Ist Corinthians gives the answer to blind people too-"And such WERE some of you, but you have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus.



"For by grace are you saved through faith, it is the gift of God not of works lest anyone should boast." Ephesians 2:8&9



JESUS IS RIGHT!



WE HAVE to bring salvation by Jesus the Lord our Tzedak =The Lord is our righteousness

Isaiah 53 explains how the Lord becomes our righteousness



at the destruction of the temple Jesus had already given the sacrifice of blood for sin

Moses explained "The life of the flesh is in the blood and I have given it upon the altar to make atonement for your souls." Leviticus 17:11

believe Moses and the promised Messiah

atonement

it is helping people of their faith and can also be used though rarely to help people that personally know the religious people's Messiah Jesus.



because they love the Messiah Jesus and all others.



Isaiah 9:6 "Unto us a child is born a son is given, and he will be almighty GOD, and the Prince of Peace."



Isaiah 52:13-53:12 states "He shall lay down his life to make atonement for our sins."



thus we get to chose our life style with power to live right from a Messiah that will save us and be our best friend, and helping others, or helping others to be our own savior thinking we are earning our way to heaven.



praying for you and best wishes too that you stand up for what Jesus would rather do too-live and help others to live and you will be a victor going through life - peace-David



a woman said they are hypocrites, well I would rather be in a group with hypocrites than go to hell tormented forever gnashing teeth, weeping forever for rejecting salvation-Revelation 19-22nd chapters and heavens joy is described there too.



In hell do you want your forever weeping to be with the words-I wouldnt listen-they were so wrong-while you see the wrong ones near you gnashing their teeth too



a hug to you friend and again my prayers too
Screamin' Banshee
2007-05-21 06:03:18 UTC
One of my favourite questions LOL
shadower
2007-05-21 05:59:16 UTC
i ask the christan, they say nothing created god.

so i pray to nothing.
CHEESUS GROYST
2007-05-21 05:58:22 UTC
It's Christian magic and sorcery...trickery if you ask me!
Vivek K
2007-05-21 06:14:35 UTC
From The Mundaka Upanishad

Translations and explanations by Swami Nikhilananda

Ramakrishna-Vivekananda Center, New York



By means of the Higher Knowledge the wise behold everywhere Brahman, which otherwise cannot be seen or seized, which has no root or attributes, no eyes or ears, no hands or feet; which is eternal and omnipresent, all-pervading and extremely subtle; which is imperishable and the source of all beings.

(Mundaka Upanishad, I.i.6)



[Note: As the spider sends forth and draws in its thread, as plants grow on the earth, as hair grows on the head and the body of a living man- so does everything in the universe arise from the Imperishable.



"Draws in": That is to say, absorbs within itself. The thread, when drawn in, becomes again part and parcel of the spider. "Plants..": They are not different from the earth. "Hair….": The hair is different from the man. The one is inert and the other living.



These three illustrations stress the spontaneous nature of the creation. Brahman Itself, without the help of an extraneous cause, projects the universe out of Itself. It is both the material and the efficient cause. The first illustration points out that the universe is projected from Brahman and also ultimately merges in Brahman. The second illustration points out that, after the creation, the universe rests in Brahman. According to the third, Brahman, which is Pure Intelligence, projects out of Itself the inert material universe, like the growth of hair from a living man. The creation is not the becoming or transformation of Brahman. Brahman through Its own inscrutable power, appears as the universe of name and form without Itself undergoing any change whatsoever. This is called maya.]



[The following comments refer to the next verse No.8. The successive stages in the evolution of the universe are described. Things did not come into existence all at once, as if someone had thrown a handful of plums.]



Brahman expands by means of austerity, and from It primal matter is produced; from matter, Prana; from Prana, mind; from mind, the elements; from the elements, the worlds; thence works, and from the works, their immortal fruits.

(Mundaka Upanishad, I.i.8)



[Note: "Expands": The word tapas in the Sanskrit text means, literally, austerity. It also denotes intense thinking, which precedes any creative act. Here the word means knowledge, regarding the future creation. Brahman or Pure Intelligence, alone exists. It is one and without a second. Under the influence of Its own maya there arises in Brahman the desire for creation, or projection, and forthwith it becomes endowed with omniscience, that is to say, with the knowledge and capacity of creating, preserving and destroying the universe.

Thus Brahman appears to increase in size, like a seed before it splits and the sprout comes out; or like a father dilating with joy before begetting a son. In this stage Brahman, or the attributeless Absolute, becomes known as Saguna Brahman associated with the attributes of omniscience, omnipotence, and so on. The whole creation is the illusory superimposition of name and form on Brahman, owing to maya. Maya has no existence independent of Brahman.



"From It": Prakriti or primal matter in a state of non- differentiation, being a beginningless entity, cannot be said to be created. What is meant is that it becomes ready for manifestation. The word for primal matter in the Sanskrit text is annam, food; all created beings derive enjoyment from material objects, as a man does from food. Brahman desirous of creation appears as the undifferentiated prakriti, or matter. From the standpoint of prakriti, Brahman is the material cause of the universe, whereas, from the standpoint of Pure Intelligence, It is efficient cause.



"From Matter, Prana": The first tangible and specific manifestation is Prana (Life), known as Brahma, Hiranyagarbha (the Golden Egg), Prajapati (the Creator), and Sutratma (the Atman which, like a thread, holds together the whole universe). He is the World Soul, the Cosmic Person in whom become manifest the knowledge and power of Brahman with regard to creation. He is the sprout, the first shoot of the creation, and contains in seed from the desires and actions of the created beings yet to be evolved.



The Personal Gods of the different religions represent different aspects of Brahma. In the Puranas He is described as a special Person endowed with a form and dwelling in a special world called Brahmaloka, which may be roughly compared to the heavens of the Dualistic religions.



"Mind": That is to say the Cosmic Mind. The individual minds are not yet evolved, Mind is characterised by volition, deliberation, doubt, and determination.



"Elements": The five elements, space (akasa), air, fire, water and earth. When first evolved, they are uncompounded, subtle, and incapable of creating. Then they combine and become gross elements. Each gross element contains one half portion of its subtle counterpart and one eighth of each of the four other subtle elements.



"Immortal fruits": Work (karma) creates desire, and the desire again impels one to action. Thus in the relative universe the stream of work never comes to an end even in a million aeons. The Knowledge of Brahman alone puts a stop to desire and work. Like work, its fruit is also without an end. Hence it is called immortal.



From the relative point of view, creation is without beginning.

The human mind cannot think of the beginning of time or space. If a limit is arbitrarily set, one can conceive of time or space beyond that as well. Likewise, there is no such thing as absolute destruction. Vedanta speaks of the manifestation and the non-manifestation of the universe. In the former state things are seen in their tangible form, and in the latter they remain as seeds. These two states are called the "day of Brahma" and the "night of Brahma." The period of manifestation is called a kalpa, or cycle (One kalpa consists of 4,320,000,000 years. Two kalpas make a day and night of Brahma of 8,640,00,000 years.360 such days make one year of Brahma. 100 such years constitute Brahma’s lifetime of 311,040, 000,000,000 years.



Whenever the creation of the world is spoken of, what is really meant is the beginning of a cycle. A new cycle begins by the will of Isvara (Saguna Brahman,), and its character is determined by the accumulated actions of the living beings of the previous cycle. (For explanations on ‘Isvara’ see page ‘Nature of Reality’; refer to the column on the left). Mere matter, without the help of consciousness or intelligence, cannot precipitate creation. Whether the created beings in a particular cycle will be happy or unhappy, wise or ignorant, is determined by the law of karma. In discussing creation or evolution, it should be remembered that according to Vedanta it is the illusory superimposition upon Brahman of names and forms.

That is to say, owing to maya Pure Intelligence, or Brahman, appears as Brahman with attributes, further appears through maya as the undifferentiated prakriti. This process of illusory superimposition is to be applied to all stages of evolution.]



For him who knows all and understands everything, whose austerity consists of knowledge- from Him, the Imperishable Brahman, are born Brahma, name, form, and food.

(Mundaka Upanishad, I.i.9)



[Note: "Who knows all": That is to say, in general. This refers to the cosmic aspect of Brahman (Brahman with attributes) associated with maya, or cosmic ignorance. Saguna Brahman surveys the created universe as a totality.



"Understands everything": That is to say, in particular. This refers to the individualised aspects of Brahman (that is to say, the jiva or individual soul), associated with avidya, or individualised ignorance.



"Austerity": The word refers to omniscience, endowed with which Brahman creates the universe. In the case of ordinary people austerity is associated with great effort. But Brahman creates the universe without the slightest effort. It appears to be the spontaneous manifestation of Brahman.



"Name": By which a created being is known.

"Form": Denoting a particular shape or colour.

"Food": Corn, barley, and other foods, by which living beings are sustained.



It is well known that any creative work is preceded by deep thinking. The object is at first conceived in the mind of the creator; then it is given a tangible form. The universe is the outcome of the thought of the Creator. In describing the act of creation, the Upanishad says: "He thought." The difference, however, between a human creation and the divine creation is that the former is the result of much effort and labour, whereas, the latter is the spontaneous manifestation of Brahman. "Devasya esha svabhavah-" All this is the very nature of Brahman. The Upanishad gives a spiritual interpretation of the creation as opposed to a mechanistic one.]


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
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