LDS, Mormons, coincidental or what?? Comoros, Moroni?

Question

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroni,_Comoros

Smith did have an interest in tressure (with respect)

Some scholars have theorized that Smith became familiar with the name "Moroni" through his study of the treasure-hunting stories of Captain William Kidd.
Because Kidd was said to have buried treasure in the Comoros islands, and Moroni is the name of the capital city and largest settlement in the Comoros, it has been suggested that Smith borrowed the name of the settlement and applied it to the angel who led him to buried treasure—the golden plates.

Complementing this proposal is the theory that Smith borrowed the names of the Comoros islands and applied them to the hill where he found the golden plates, which he named Cumorah.


It is coincidental?

Answer 1

Hm, can I get 10 points for knowing who she's gonna pick as the best answer? It's either going to be Dan, Andy, Kevin or Natural, because they all agree with her.



But I do love my fellow LDS for answering in good faith. But I've seen enough of OW's questions to know she always picks an anti- for the best answer if one is available.

Answer 2

Er, what? Okay, when I was reading the Book of Mormon as a kid, I liked the part about people leaving the groups... the little snippets about explorers leaving the land of "mormon" for lack of a better term, in boats too, and imagining where they went. The Book of Mormon never says they came back in fact. Also, it's pretty clear that there were other groups, when the Nephites arrived there were remnants from other groups. The Jaredites being probably the earliest one, but there were others as well that are mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Now as I got older I read accounts of men like Ishi (the book is Ishi: Last of His Tribe) where his Tribe was hunted and destroyed by neighboring tribes, assimilated really. Then other histories where it became clear that while there were as many as 500 different nations in America... there also may not have been clear cut differences. To explain, there are accounts of kidnapping, slavery, and other methods that would have mixed nations. Some nations, when they got sick with small pox, disappeared entirely, and while the disease certainly killed a majority certain journals instead suggest that the disease would weaken a group to the point where they either would join other groups to survive, be taken captive and forced to join other groups, or be killed in disagreements. The point being that there's a lot more common blood than separate blood. The most recent interesting thing I read about other groups was a study by NASA talking about how the Mayan people cut all their trees down and caused an area that they described as desolate, drought ridden, unable to farm, and that this was one of the main things that led to the destruction of the Mayan people. Now, the Book of Mormon describes a large area to the North of them as "desolate" and devoid of trees, and that they suffered that every tree that grew on that land to be left alone so that it could be habitable again. The Mayans were there a long time before the Nephites and Lamanites, but here's record that lines up with NASA findings that again the Book of Mormon was far more south than first believed, and probably a smaller area than originally believed. Theories of it ranging way up to North America were only theories, and I remember in Seminary quite clearly them being blown out of the water just from reading the book. I think you need to reread the book if you're going to argue against it. You obviously missed some things.

Answer 3

Where do you propose Smith found this information? Did he travel there? Because even in 1843 comoras was only mentioned in a couple of gazateers, and moroni was not mentioned at all - 1843. That's 13 years after the founding of the church - let alone the translation of the BoM.



In fact, Moroni did not become the capital city until 1876 when Sultan Sa'id Ali settled there, which would have perhaps given it enough 'clout' to be listed.

Let's see, that is 32 years after Joseph had died -

and 47 years after the publication of the Book of Mormon.



Actually, if you buy this "coincidence" - you end up making an excellent case for divine intervention.

Answer 4

Comoros is a small nation made up of three islands off the southeast coast of Africa. Its capital city is Moroni.



Some critics have claimed that Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon names Cumorah and Moroni by copying them from a map of the Comoros islands.



This claim, like many efforts to explain away the Book of Mormon, commits the logical fallacy of the Appeal to probability. This fallacy argues that because something is even remotely possible, it must be true.



Pointing out a possible relationship like Comoros = Cumorah and Moroni = Moroni is not sufficient.



When the facts are examined, even the possiblity of Joseph seeing Comoros and Moroni recedes; the idea becomes absurd.



There is no evidence that Joseph saw these maps, or any other, but if he had they would have provided little help.



Furthermore, it is unlikely that any source would have contained the name of "Moroni." That settlement did not become the capital city until 1876 (32 years after Joseph's death and 47 years after the publication of the Book of Mormon), when Sultan Sa'id Ali settled there. At that time it was only a small settlement. Even a century later, in 1958, its population was only 6500.



Conclusion

Advocacy of the Comoros/Moroni link seems an act of desperation. It has not been proved that Joseph saw the names, or that any source available to him linked them. Furthermore, latching on to two names in an obscure reference work does nothing to explain the incredible complexity and internal consistency of the Book of Mormon.



Trivia

In an episode of the TV game show Jeopardy, host Alex Trebek gave the answer, "Pronounced one way, it is the capitol of the Comoros Islands; pronounced another way, it is the name of the angel that appeared to Joseph Smith." (The question, of course, was "What is Moroni?")



Here is a map from 1829 with the spelling of the island. This is from the University of Texas. You'll see that it is called Comore.



http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/africa_se_1829.jpg



I'm not sure where you got your source. Could you provide it please? I'll keep looking too.



Wikipedia has the name of the islands in french and arabic and it isn't called comora there...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comoros



I found this:



Brookes Gazateer



1794 edition

Comora on p. 400, no mention of Moroni



1819 edition

Comora, no mention of Moroni

(I found it funny that in the same they spelled the Sahara with a Z.....Zahara)



1835 edition

Comoro on p. 214, no mention of Moroni



1843 edition

Comoro, no mention of Moroni



Edit:



Andy R. apparently you haven't read the most recent changes and findings on the DNA evidence.



http://mormontimes.com/DB_index.php?id=438

http://mormontimes.com/DB_index.php?id=1064

http://mormontimes.com/WC_education.php?id=1895

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_and_DNA_evidence

Answer 5

Just read the Book of Mormon and take up Moroni's Challenge...and if you have sincere and honest intent...you will find out the truth. All of this speculation is useless towards finding the truth...only the Giver of truth will be able to convinced you or anyone else of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Read, study, ponder, and PRAY...

Answer 6

It is no more conclusive proof of the book of mormon's fiction than the los lunas decalogue http://www.mhccorp.com/archaeology/decalogue-age.html is of its proof.



Its interesting. There are all sorts of things like that though. It doesnt really change the whole of the church. I mean, if you believe the gospel is true, either A. he did use them, maybe he couldnt pronounce the names or was translating them as something he could more easily recognize in the beginning or B. He didnt use them and it was a coincidence.



If you think he made up the book of mormon, then you could see it as evidence, but its a pretty weak arguement.





Either way, it doesnt change the various miracles, blessings and other experiences millions of people have.

Answer 7

I think it's interesting. Joseph Smith supposedly gathered information from all over the place to create a religion. His ideas allegedly came from his involvement in magic, View of the Hebrews, or that other book he read in Nauvoo about men becoming Gods (I forget the name.) But the fact that he was able to put all this together shows that he was a relgious genius. And his teachings, including the Book of Mormon inspire people to live good lives. Also, his followers have somehow been able to have their own spiritual experiences that confirm their belief in him as a prophet. How does he do that? How does he give his followers visions, or testimonies? I think that everything Joseph Smith has done was beyond the capacity of a normal person. He had God's help.

Answer 8

Yeah, it can't be dismissed saying maybe JS saw them on a map, maybe he didn't. The Comoros Islands and its main village Moroni figure very highly in the Captain Kidd legends, which we know fascinated Smith like they did practically everyone in his neighborhood during the time.



And right on, Andy R. It's just like the kooky Scientologists defending their nutty theology with a straight face by appealing to science and logic.



I'm more interested in why JS carried on his treasure hunting activities after the First Vision and the first appearance of the angel Moroni. And why he joined the Methodist Church after these supposed heavenly visits.



Edit- That's right, giving me a thumbs down will make ALL the inconsistencies and embarrassments go away.

Answer 9

IMHO, it doesn't really matter. It's a proven fact that JS DIDN'T translate the BOA and that it's a complete fraud. Throw in the false translation of the Kinderhook plates and there's serious evidence that Smith was a conman. How is it that he could translate the BOM but then so erroneously translate these other items? There is zero evidence of the things written about in the BOM. How is it that we've found archaeological evidence of other civilizations but we don't have any evidence of the BOM people? My research has led to to the conclusion that Smith fabricated the BOM by using his genius imagination and several other sources available to him at the time.



And to the person that suggested not asking anybody about Smith or the LDS church that isn't LDS, it took me 26 years and a two year mission to learn a lot about the church that was kept from me. I never knew Smith had 30 wives, some of whom were as young as 14. I never knew that he used a peep stone and a hat to translate the BOM. It hurts to know these things now and I can't help but feel as though I've been tricked. A lot of LDS don't know the ugly history of the church or how it evolved into what it is today so I'd say that asking a LDS member would be an unreliable method of learning what really happened.

Answer 10

It is possible, but in this case there very serious flaws in the evidence that suggests that Joseph copied the names from there. To do so and stick to it would be as bad as what the LDS do for their scripture.

Answer 11

OR - the settlers of the Comoros isle were either aware of the Nephite civilization or emigrants thereof and so were aware of the names... just another possibility

Answer 12

No.



The article that you posted reads:



"The name of the city has no confirmed relation to the personage of the same name found in the Book of Mormon."



I think you answered your own question.

Answer 13

Yes, coincidental.

Answer 14

I think that's an awesome discovery!

Answer 15

Good research into the sources behind Joseph Smith's fantacies. The Book of Mormon is regarded by some to be nothing more than a story that Joseph Smith constructed in his mind as a boy. In fact, the book History of Joseph Smith (p. 85), written by Joseph Smith's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, states:



"During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them."



How is it that Joseph Smith told these stories several years before he allegedly found the golden plates and wrote The Book of Mormon?



http://www.christiananswers.net/q-cc/cc-archaeology.html



Against the accuracy of the book of Mormon are these scientific criticisms:



The lack of any correlation between locations described in the Book of Mormon and American archaeological sites.



References to animals, plants and technologies in the Book or Mormon that did not exist in pre-Columbian America.



The lack of any linguistic connection between any Native American language or language family and any Near Eastern language or language family.



The absence of any DNA evidence linking Native Americans with descendants of Israel.





According to the Smithsonian Institute of Washington, D.C., USA, the following items (which, according to The Book of Mormon, existed in the Americas between 600 B.C. and 421 A.D.) have absolutely no evidence for existing in the America's during the time in question:



Silk

Steel

Iron

Coins

Donkeys

Cattle, Cow, and Oxen

Pigs



The Book of Mormon states that there were pre-Columbian peoples that were white, literate, had knowledge of Old World languages, and possessed Old World derived writing systems. (E.g. 1 Nephi 13:23 et. seq.) They smelted metal and made tools and weapons of iron, steel, and brass. (E.g. Ether 7:9, 10:23) They owned domesticated horses and cattle. They possessed chariots. (E.g. Alma 18:9-12) The people covered the "entire land." The civilization described by these passages and scores of others in the Book of Mormon should yield certain types of discoveries in the pre-Colombian archaeological record.



The lack of evidence of the Book of Mormon civilizations is problematic for the Book of Mormon. LDS scholars answer that there is a growing body of evidence of the book's authenticity. These evidences, however, are not accepted by mainstream archaeologists.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_and_the_Book_of_Mormon

Answer 16

Phrog! Dude! You rock! I'm just so glad you're on my side! :P

Answer 17

Not coincedental...



But don't you love watching people who claim to believe in hole digging and golden plates and common Egyptian funerary papers being to Book of Abraham bending over backwards like this:



"This claim, like many efforts to explain away the Book of Mormon, commits the logical fallacy of the Appeal to probability. This fallacy argues that because something is even remotely possible, it must be true."



How is it possible these people pretend to have such critical skill when they can't even correctly interpret the DNA evidence or understand what every archaeology department in every university (except BYU) already knows. Weird.

Answer 18

first off, wikipedia is inaccurate. second, u should believe anyone about Joseph Smith if they aren't Mormon/LDS. and he became familiar with the name Moroni b/c it's in the Book of Mormon and he translated it.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=7fcee975d2a2b010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e419fb40e21cef00VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD&locale=0

http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/



:) Have a nice day! :)

Answer 19

pretty cool.