Atheists, why do you say "An all loving God wouldn't let all of this happen" ?

Question

The universe works in perfect harmony.. the sun is predicted to explode in millions of years, but everything on our planet works so perfectly.. did you know that if the sun was just a fraction of a degree higher it would burn the entire Earth? Science just proves that God has made everything work in perfect harmony..

BUT look what humans have done.. look at the all the wars, the famines, the corrupt governments, the murderers, the deformed babies... and then you question God's mercy... you can't question God's mercy when God's PEOPLE haven't accepted His Will, haven't lived by His words and have gone astray to slowly dissipate our once unified, beautiful planet... What I am saying is, you live in a planet that was perverted by humans.. this was not God's original plan..

Answer 1

So would you stand and watch a child get raped and murdered and do nothing to stop it? Then why doesn't this "all loving God" of yours do anything?

Answer 2

The universe does not work in perfect harmony.





What is harmonious about a super-nova? A hurricane? An earthquake?



What do you mean by 'a fraction of a degree higher'? This is a meaningless statement. Did you know that the Earth is on the edge of the 'Goldilocks Zone' If the universe is so harmonious for us why is it not in the center, rather than closer to the sun than is 'harmonious'?





Ignoring all of that, An all loving, omnipotent, omnicognizant God would not allow the suffering of innocents.



An omnicognizant God would know of a plan that achieved his aims totally and in which nobody suffered. If he did not know of such a plan he would not be all knowing.



An omnipotent God would be able to implement such a plan. If he could not then he would not be all powerful.



An all loving God would chose to implement such a plan above any other. Failure to do so would mean that he was not all loving.







But this is not what we see. We see innocent babies dying. If god really is omnicognizant then he must have known that this would happen. If he really is omnipotent he could have avoided it. So it is an unavoidable conclusion that this omnipotent, omnicognizant all loving god can not exist, any more than you can have dry water, or 1+1=1.



This is your definition for God, not mine. So please think about what it really means when infinite abilities are assigned to your deity and what the consequences are before berating others for having thought things through to their logical conclusions.

Answer 3

Hubunny- look out, your ignorance is showing, you'd better cover it up!



In an infinite universe, you're bound to have some star systems that have conditions more favorable to life than others. We happen to have one of them. And what do you mean by a fraction of a degree higher? Do you mean out of the plane of the ecliptic? The orbits of the planets are determined by the gravity of the sun and the position of the ecretion disk when the solar system was formed. You don't seem to know what you're talking about here. If the Earth were closer to the sun, or a little bit farther, there's no reason to believe that life might not have evolved here--it still might have, but it would have taken on different forms to adapt to the change in solar radiation.



By the way, to answer your question, your hypothetical God made us flawed and violent. He didn't have to do that. Don't tell me about free will. Free will isn't dependent on the biological tendency to be violent. He could have created a less aggressive species that was intelligent and still had free will. And would he make (males especially) have the drive to have sex with as many partners as possible, and then tell us that we can only have sex with one person in our entire lives? That's just twisted. I could go on, but everyone's probably stopped reading this by now anyway.

Answer 4

What you call "perfect harmony" includes destructive hurricanes, eathquakes, volcanic eruptions, diseases, asteroids that destroy life when they explode on earth, exploding stars, dying stars, an expanding and collapsing universe, and so on.



Every storm is a "harmoniously entertaining spectacle" if seen from afar. Huge storms occur on Venus and Jupiter. Scientists observe their destructive forces and find them fascinating. They would be destructive for living organisms, but where there are none, no concept of destruction exists.



Harmony implies balance so that living organisms (and humans) can thrive. There is no harmony in a storm like Katrina - ask those who lost everything there. Yet, a powerful storm is as natural an event as a galactic explosion.



The concept of harmony or destruction applies axclusively to human life. No one cares if there is a storm on Mars - you can call that divine harmony if you wish. But you will not do the same if a tornado flattens your house! I doubt that what is left of your furnishings and belongings you would call it "harmony"!



Since no storm, volcano, planet, stars, galaxy is moved by any type of consciousness whatsoever, so the idea of allocating merit or blame for what these inanimate entities do is simply absurd.



The reason that explains why our planet has life is exactly the same that explains why there is no life on the moon. The reason that explains why a tropical storm forms in the Carribbeans is exctly the same that explains why no such storms occur in Russia.



We can study nature and discover the laws of physics, chemistry and biology that explain how the universe behaves. What we should not do is invent a consciousness that makes the universe and everything in it obey its intentions.



A storm is not guided by anybody's intention to hit here instead of there; a volcano is not commanded by anyone to erupt one day instead of another; the universe is not commanded by a consciousness of any kind to do the things it does; therefore, a universe is not an effect of any other cause. It is simply what exists and what has always existed.

The universe does not care about what we think of it; we ought to care about what it does and its laws, since by studying the laws of the universe we may have the choice to live or to become extinct.

Answer 5

"Science just proves that God has made everything work in perfect harmony.. "



What if you replaced God with evolution? What if we are among many universes and ours is one of the few that have support stars and planets. What if there are millions of planets in our universe that has people asking the same questions we are right now? I think you should realize that just because you can't come to a definite answer, you don't have to point to God as the answer.

Answer 6

I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that this question has been answered and brutally ripped apart by atheist & the agnostics. It completely shows your lack of understanding and the fact that God cannot have created a perfect system. He sabotaged it from the very beginning, if 'he' exists at all. Christians should stick to faith theories of Gods existence. Because anywhere other than that you're threading on unknown territory.

Answer 7

Because an "all-loving" God wouldn't let it happen. Period. Someone who loves something(and you religious folk seem to love reminding the rest of us that God loves everybody) doesn't just sit back and watch what they love suffer or hurt each other. Parents break up fights between their kids all the time, so it's well within God's ability to get down off his cloud and stop idiot humans from killing each other.



Also, how is it that you religious folk also tend to spout off the same rhetoric about God being "merciful" in an attempt to convince us, yet a split second later insinuate that he's only merciful to those who accepted his will and live by his words? Oh yes, that's very merciful of God to let people kill each other in all manner of horrific ways, just because he thinks they're unworthy of his protection and love. Yes, that's very Christian thought and behavior.



So all the wars, famines, governments, murderers and- *BLINK* deformed babies?! wtf?!- are the faults of PEOPLE'S actions and not God's?



Ok, I could almost believe the first four, but the babies? So according to you, babies born with deformities and medical problems that aren't "perfect" in your eyes are the fault of their parents? Wow, you win the cruelty award for that one, mate.



Oh yes, I can definitely see an all-loving God as punishing an innocent baby by making them born with medical problems just because it's "his plan" or because its' "their parents' fault". Yeah, that sounds REAL loving to me.



Yes, this planet is real f*cked up, but it's not God's fault or his plan. WE did it to ourselves. Humans. Selfish, naughty humans. And we must also fix it OURSELVES, not wait for "God" to step in.



Because if he were there, he would've stepped in and given us all one big divine spanking for destroying the world that you religious people preach he gave us. He sure as hell did it back in the Old Testament. And Christ died 2000 years ago. That cancelled out sin up until then.



In the last 2000 years, we've REALLY done some nasty things to each other. But I'm not seeing any floods yet, so how 'bout you put down your Bible for awhile and start recycling, because this world's not going to get any better from prayer alone.

Answer 8

Not too offend you, but lets look at facts quick... WAR: More wars and conflicts and deaths have occured in the name of God then any other reason. FAMINE: Many people live in areas that are not rich in nutrients to grow crops or sustain adaquate life, they live there because God told them to (Africa, Middle-East). GOVERNMENT: First developed in the name of God. MURDER: see WAR. DEFORMATIES: Happens in nature, not a creation of man, learn about nature first before even attempting to make a comment like that again. And if you're talking about God's plan, He decided it was a good plan and is following it through, regardless of what humans do, so that arguement is null.



Oh, if you're thinking everything works in perfect harmony, then the Black Plague, not a creation of man, and was at the time considered to be a wrath of God, then why did it eliminate half of the world's population? Stop being a crusader convincing people we're evil. God (if he exists, im not sure if he does or doesn't), will follow through with his devine plan regardless of what humans do.



And again with deformities, so you're saying a child with no knowledge of God before birth, diagnosed with AIDS, HIV, diebetes, cystic fibrosis, spinabifida, hemophilia, etc... were given those because they didn't believe in God's will? THEY'RE ******* CHILDREN YOU STUPID ******* ****! THEY'RE NOT EVEN OLD ENOUGH TO COMPREHEND LANGUAGE! I HOPE YOU ROT IN HELL YOU EXTREMEIST *****!

Answer 9

Just for the sake of argument, forget about that "all-loving" stuff for a moment. Even if the Judeo-Christian God was just a *rational* being, then the stories about him in the Bible being such a petty bloodthirsty and genocidal tyrant needing sacrifices to soothe his anger couldn't possibly be true. And the thing is, we atheists don't blame God for anything because we don't believe that there is one. Like you say, human beings are the ones who cause most of the problems in the world, so we're the ones who have to fix them.

Answer 10

i don't, it's a lame argument against the existence of gods because there is no evidence of gods benign or malign. it's like trying to prove fairies don't exist because they have zits. if the earth were closer to the sun and too hot to support life, guess what; there would be no life. there are trillions of stars in the universe and trillions of planets. some will support life, some will not. this is probability not god. and the argument from incredulity is even more lame that the bad god argument.

Answer 11

actually the temperature of the corona of the sun fluctuates between 1 million and 3 million degrees celsius.



just because you throw the word science into a sentence doesnt make you sound smart, just so you know.



so when people like you make up science in your mind, and then says it proves that god exists, it doesnt help your argument.



and if god existed, he would just have to pop his head around a cloud, and all the problems would stop. and people actually would be cool to each other.

Answer 12

This is not a question at all!



You're totally preaching! tsk tsk tsk!





Oh, and I've never said '' An all loving God wouldn't let all of this happen.'' Omg! stop putting words in my mouth! I don't know you!





Way to generalize lady!!



oh, and btw.



What makes everything in nature so ''perfect'' when the ''imperfections'' in nature would have prevented you from existing and thus prevented you from viewing these ''imperfections''?

Perfection is a word humans invented to better understand what they saw. Perfection doesn't actually exist.

Answer 13

You are damn right this was not God's plan. If you take a look at a history book with very human eyes. And love in your heart, actually look, really look. And remove every human characteristic from religions, Christianity included. Take a close look and honestly examine the history of this planet, you will see very human patterns. It is the very human emotions and weaknesses themselves that have written the history books in the most religious of senses. Not God, we have never seen God in my opinion. This is the ability that anyone has, the ability to see the truth. God gave the absolute brilliance and potential in all of us. I am 100% convinced that all religions do not represent God. They are human guises masqueraded as God, but we have yet to find God.



God is the artist who can capture the beauty of a landscape. God it the person who can write words that touch the very hearts of the masses. God is the beauty and potential in all of humanity. Not religion.



Religion is a divisive tool used to separate the masses and turn that against each other. To turn brother against brother. Religion is the very human need for greed and power. To feel he has a right to pillage and plunder his own brother in the name of God is a gross sin.

Answer 14

nicely, in reaction on your insult with a question mark, some Christians (ordinarily clergymen) say stuff like that throughout public, as a classic factor. Our Baseless data let us know the Lord loves everybody because of the fact our Holy e book is crammed with cheating data that let us know our apparently declared non existent Lord's be conscious. Your Welcome

Answer 15

Neither I nor the Atheists have a clue as to what "An all loving God " means.



This phrase/title has no equivelant in God's Word and shows a great MISunderstanding of WHO God is. But then, that is what Atheists thrive on.

Answer 16

>.. did you know that if the sun was just a fraction of a degree higher it would burn the entire Earth?



That's actually not true.



And humans are sometimes born deformed because of genetic mutation.



Your lack of scientific knowledge scares me, so here you go:



Claim CI301:

The cosmos is fine-tuned to permit human life. If any of several fundamental constants were only slightly different, life would be impossible. (This claim is also known as the weak anthropic principle.)



Response:



1. The claim assumes life in its present form is a given; it applies not to life but to life only as we know it. The same outcome results if life is fine-tuned to the cosmos.



We do not know what fundamental conditions would rule out any possibility of any life. For all we know, there might be intelligent beings in another universe arguing that if fundamental constants were only slightly different, then the absence of free quarks and the extreme weakness of gravity would make life impossible.



Indeed, many examples of fine-tuning are evidence that life is fine-tuned to the cosmos, not vice versa. This is exactly what evolution proposes.



2. If the universe is fine-tuned for life, why is life such an extremely rare part of it?



3. Many fine-tuning claims are based on numbers being the "same order of magnitude," but this phrase gets stretched beyond its original meaning to buttress design arguments; sometimes numbers more than one-thousandfold different are called the same order of magnitude (Klee 2002).



How fine is "fine" anyway? That question can only be answered by a human judgment call, which reduces or removes objective value from the anthropic principle argument.



4. The fine-tuning claim is weakened by the fact that some physical constants are dependent on others, so the anthropic principle may rest on only a very few initial conditions that are really fundamental (Kane et al. 2000). It is further weakened by the fact that different initial conditions sometimes lead to essentially the same outcomes, as with the initial mass of stars and their formation of heavy metals (Nakamura et al. 1997), or that the tuning may not be very fine, as with the resonance window for helium fusion within the sun (Livio et al. 1989). For all we know, a universe substantially different from ours may be improbable or even impossible.



5. If part of the universe were not suitable for life, we would not be here to think about it. There is nothing to rule out the possibility of multiple universes, most of which would be unsuitable for life. We happen to find ourselves in one where life is conveniently possible because we cannot very well be anywhere else.



6. Intelligent design is not a logical conclusion of fine tuning. Fine tuning says nothing about motives or methods, which is how design is defined. (The scarcity of life and multi-billion-year delay in it appearing argue against life being a motive.) Fine-tuning, if it exists, may result from other causes, as yet unknown, or for no reason at all (Drange 2000).



7. In fact, the anthropic principle is an argument against an omnipotent creator. If God can do anything, he could create life in a universe whose conditions do not allow for it.



Links:

Drange, Theodore M. 2000. The fine-tuning argument revisited (2000). Philo 3(2): 38-49. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/tuning-revisited.html



Stenger, Victor J. 1997. Intelligent design: Humans, cockroaches, and the laws of physics. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/cosmo.html



Stenger, Victor J. 1999 (July). The anthropic coincidences: A natural explanation. The Skeptical Intelligencer 3(3): 2-17. http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/stenger_intel.html



Weinberg, Steven. 1999. A designer universe? http://www.physlink.com/Education/essay_weinberg.cfm

References:



1. Drange, Theodore M. 2000. The fine-tuning argument revisited (2000). Philo 3(2): 38-49. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/tuning-revisited.html

2. Kane, G. L., M. J. Perry, and A. N. Zytkow. 2000 (28 Jan.). The beginning of the end of the anthropic principle. New Astron. 7: 45-53. http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph/0001197

3. Klee, Robert. 2002. The revenge of Pythagoras: How a mathematical sharp practice undermines the contemporary design argument in astrophysical cosmology. British Journal for the Philosophy of Science 53: 331-354.

4. Livio, M., D. Hollowell, A. Weiss and J. Truran. 1989. The anthropic significance of the existence of an excited state of 12C. Nature 340: 281-284.

5. Nakamura, Takashi, H. Uehara, and T. Chiba. 1997. The minimum mass of the first stars and the anthropic principle. Progress of Theoretical Physics 97: 169-171. http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph/9612113



Further Reading:

Goldsmith, D. 2004. The best of all possible worlds. Natural History 113(6) (July/Aug.): 44-49.

Answer 17

come on now... just becaus eyou BELIEVE something doesn't make it true. I believe that George bush is the anti-christ, that doesn't make it true.



we are not the only planet in the universe that is so perfectly in order. we just haven't had much time to explore the universe and have no real idea about what is out there.

Answer 18

Where in the bible does it say 'Thou shalt not have war'? If there was a god, and he really loved his 'children', would children in Africa be starving and suffering from AIDS? Would infants be killed by their teenage mothers because they're too irresponsible to learn how to use a condom or birth control? Would there be cancer and disease? If there is a god, I"m happy to not pray to some egotistical, sadist who demands that everyone worship him.



*rant done*

Answer 19

harmony????



THE UNIVERSE

1. most planet's orbits are unstable and as they degrade will cause them to either be flung out away from their star or have them sucked in by gravity into the star or another nearby planet thereby destroying the planet.

2. less than 3% of star forming nebulae actually form stars. most of the gas cloud is insufficient for star formation.

3. most places in the universe will kill life instantly. (heat, cold,

radiation)

4. over time, as galaxies orbit, any civilization will eventually be brought into contact with a supernova thereby destroying the civilization. (the largest, brighest, hottest explosions in the

universe, some of which cause black holes to form)

5. the milky way galaxy and our closest neighboring galaxy, the andromeda galaxy, are on a collision course and will eventually combine causing incredible turmoil and likely destroying our solar system as we know it.

6. the universe as we know it today will eventually wind down to oblivion.



EARTH

1. earthquakes and volcanoes level cities and villages

2. tsunamis kill hundreds of thousands

3. floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, lightning strikes

4. we're unable to live on 2/3rd's of the earth's surface.

5. humans would freeze or starve on 1/2 of what we can actually live on

6. mass extinctions- climate shifts, disease, killer asteroids

7. 99% of all life ever to have lived is now extinct

8. the inner solar system is a shooting gallery of asteroids, meteors, and comets.

9. it took 3.5 billion years before multi cellular life arose.



HUMANS

1. aggressive childhood leukemia, hemophilia, sickle cell anemia, multiple sclerosis, epilepsy, parkinson's, ALS

2. our eyes can only "see" a very small portion of the electromagnetic spectrum of energy

3. vision loss with age, alzheimer's, prostate cancer

4. we breath inefficiently, exhaling most of the oxygen we inhale

5. we're practically comatose for 1/3rd of our lives while we're sleeping

6. we can not detect magnetic fields, ionizing radiation fields, or radon

7. carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, chlorine, arsenic, ect ect will all kill us, if not instantly, within minutes of exposure.





you sure you don't want to rethink that???

Answer 20

"BUT look what humans have done.. look at the all the wars, the famines, the corrupt governments, the murderers....."





*ahem*



Christian humans.... religious zealots....





Not an atheist in the bunch, honey.





.

Answer 21

Actually no, the sun wouldn't burn the earth. The earth's distance varies as it rotates around the sun, so small distances clearly have no real effect.

Answer 22

God is all knowing - he not only made the plan, but he made the idea of a 'plan' and defined what a 'plan' was.



Your logic is circular, you try and use it but then tell others they cannot continue that logic.



You fail to understand that believing in God requires that you, first, have a mind to believe in God - without mind, there is no belief and the belief in god disappears

Answer 23

So the several Christian families I know who have multiple children with cystic fibrosis "deserve" it because they don't obey god's will. I sure hope something like this happens to you someday, because that's the only way you'll ever rethink your self-righteous, hateful ideology. You scare me.

Answer 24

I just skimmed through it but here you go,



I, we, you, us are not resonsible for the actions of others, corrupt politicians, govt, killers, rapists, radicals, people from 38374 years ago, etc. People are born into BAD situations. Kids are born with HIV and birth defects and destined to live a miserable life....



Take this scenario into hand. I love my son with all my heart. I Command him to believe in something that cannot be seen or proved. I command him to devote his ENTIRE life to it and be willing to give up everything, including his own children for it., but it is something that CANNOT be proved. If he does not do this, I will cast him into torture FOREVER.



But remember, I love him with all my heart.........is that not a load of malevolent BS?

Answer 25

We evolved for our bodies to fit the temperature of the earth, not the other way around.



Study evolution and you may have a new take on this "chance" stuff.

Answer 26

If he was all-loving, he wouldn't give a damn if others believed him or not. He'd still continue to do good deeds.



Unfortunately, he has to punish the innocent people on our Earth with incurable things that they didn't deserve.

Answer 27

If you think this universe and earth work in perfect harmony, you are completely deluded.

Answer 28

I thought you lot believe that man was made in your god's image?

If man does evil then what does that imply about your god?

Answer 29

Would you allow your children to hurt themselves even if that was what they wanted? Are you more loving than your God?

Answer 30

I have never said anything like that. I don't believe in any gods so why would I state something that would be contrary to my non-belief?

Answer 31

"works so perfectly", you mean like hurricanes, floods, volcanos, and other fun natural disasters? Or that meteor that wiped out all dinosaurs?



Yeah, PERFECTLY.

Answer 32

God made us the way are. The 'perfect' creator made us so immeasurably imperfect that we destroyed his 'perfect' creation. If he has made us to such a degree of imperfection that can ruin his plan, I'd rather not be a part of a such a fragile thing...

Answer 33

Well, whoever sents you to hell because you dont believe in him is NOT loving.. its rather sad actually,

Answer 34

Yeah, so, um, I have a sun burn.



Check. Mate.

Answer 35

I agree, mans problems aret he result of disobience to God beginning with adam and eve.

Answer 36

I agree, God made this earth perfectly, he made everything work beautifully, he designed our bodies, every little part of them to work together for us. Yet people take advantage of it, and sleep around, do drugs, burn buildings down, bomb each other???



Mecha Jebus, it is not Forced onto people, but it is accepted, and you don't have to believe it, if you dont want to.

Answer 37

oh dear ... please no



you are saying that deformed babies are caused by people who havent accepted Gods will



eeek

Answer 38

I never said that.

Answer 39

You can continue to be deluded if you wish, just don't force it on anyone else please.

Answer 40

Simple because Atheist try to form God in their own image. They think God or Christianity must adapt to them to be just. If they don't get their way, you know the result.