Atheists & those believing in evolution, can you give me proof and information (Christians please read too)?

Love

2010-01-29 23:28:19 UTC

1. google it

2. when things evolve it doesnt change spontaneously into something else...thats basically what your trying to notion... that everything spontaneously formed out of nothing... where as revolution is insisting that everything didnt spontaneously form out of nothing... yet evolved from earlier things... although just because dna changes... it doesnt necessarily mean the phenotype will change... but it does play a major role in why things change....

3. we all didnt come from apes... we all came from a common primative ape like species... probably looks nothing like the apes of today... probably was nothing like the people of today... google the bonobo.... actually watch a youtube video of it.... this ape is so close to humans that its scary a little...

4. survival of the fittest... means in a specific environment... and it doesnt have anything to do with all felines... just because a tiger is more fit in a jungle doesnt mean that if a tiger came to america... it would make it out alive... it would probably be less fit to live here then a cat would... it would probably literally die of starvation or from being killed.... cats on the other hand would not have that problem...where as in a jungle... a cat would probably be eatened... that is survival of the fittest... the characteristics of this particular animal allows it to survive in its environment and reproduce and past its traits off to its offspring.... do you not have traits of your mom and dad? will you not pass them off to your kids?

5.

different breeds of dogs is something humans did we we domesticated them... when a dog had a mutated off spring with short legs... people might of found that something of they're liking...so they decided to breed to short leg dogs... where they came out with probably a couple short legged off spring... and so on and so forth

6. what? evolution is adapting? you cannot adapt to an environment without changing some sort of way? thats like okay MRSA for instance...a bacteria... most of the time it is resistant to antibiotics... why? because it has adapted to its environment... its changed its DNA so that it can be more suited in this environment..... Evolution is not something that happens to one individual but to a whole population... smh.... and its done to adapt..

7.you google it and you believe whatever you want

8. obviously... Evolution is not a God... it is nothing we worship... its nothing that we said was perfect... i mean look at humans for instance... we have a coccyx... which is nothing we use... we dont have a tail... so what the hell is it their for... Evolution does not need to be perfect.... and is nothing we can shame for not being perfect... it just is... smh

TheKitten

2010-01-29 23:21:10 UTC

1) Actually, many museums have those once you realize everything is a transitional species. The Ottawa Natural History museum has three good examples of such stone fossils. I've seen them.

2) Neanderthal man was likely a cousin species. Most specimens were found in Europe. It would seem modern man exterminated this close cousin, or forced it into famine. There are many skulls that clearly show how different these are from homo sapiens. To see the actual specimens, European Museums are the best bet.

3) We would all be descendants from a much earlier species.

4) Fittest doesn't mean biggest and baddest. All it means is more adaptable. Sometimes, being smaller is smarter.

5) Breeds are not species. Dog is a very specific example. Man has played a lot with that particular animal. Dogs are most closely genetically linked to wolves. They're not different species. They're breeds. DNA is very flexible. Dogs are kind of an exception. So are cats, bovine or any other animal man had a lot of say in.

6) It's a question of environment. If an environment changes, species will change, because the more adaptable will survive.

7) I don't know about the internet concensus, but I do know no real university biology departmenet studies creationism.

8) It got it right for the circumstances at the time.

Nate

2010-01-29 23:23:12 UTC

This is all from memory, sorry if its not all accurate:

1. Amphibians would best fit the 'half fish' idea, that being said, this isn't really how evolution works

2. Neanderthals may or may not have been our earliest ancestor and have since gone extinct. I'm not sure who has a fossil of this but I do know several have been found. As for the why, due to natural selection, the where is probably in Africa, and the when is under debate among the scientific community, but likely around 250,000 years ago if I remember right.

3. Because apes do not fill the same ecological niche and/or did not exist in the same area as humans evolved and therefore were not pushed out and made extinct by early humans.

4. Because small fish can hide and might be quicker, same with monkeys, they fill a different "niche" in the ecosystem and therefore are different. As for the cats, they were bred artificially by humans for their traits, thus making them domesticated. Early domestication was likely not easy and probably consisted of stolen cubs.

5. Mankind artificially selecting traits. Wolves would be the first breed as they were likely the first domesticated canines, though I'm not sure what came before wolves right off.

6. Because of variations when creatures reproduce. If one of these variations helps in some way that creature is more likely to reproduce then those that didn't have that variation. Evolution doesn't "know" anything, things happen because of conditions in the world. Life evolved to fit the conditions already present, not the conditions that would happen. Things like hair length and other traits are, as said related to monkeys and gorillas, dependent on what a creature's 'role' in the ecosystem is.

7. These odds have been debunked and are based on opinion. Personally, since I have seen no evidence for any deity and creation requires one, that makes creationism seem much much much more unlikely while the natural systems we have observed in motion seem pretty likely.

8. There's no wrong and right, evolution does not have an end goal, it simply happens. We've seen it. The flu evolves around our immunities ever year for example.

puredagnastyevil

2010-01-30 00:59:47 UTC

1. The closest example I can think of would be Tiktaalik, though I don't think it would qualify as a full fossil. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that request is? It's a traveling exhibit if I recall correctly.

2. The supposed forerunner was not neanderthal man. Neanderthals were from a different lineage and even coexisted with humans.

3. Do you realize that question is like asking, if lions came from cats, why are still cats? "Ape" is not a species. It's a group and we belong to that group. And speciation does not mean a separate lineage carries on. Look at the hundreds of species of shark as an example.

4. Fittest does not mean being the biggest. The biggest creatures that have ever lived are extinct. By your logic the dinosaurs and great fish of the past ought to still remain on top. But in the case of a natural disaster (say a volcano), being small makes you more fit than being large.

5. The first dogs were wolves but their reproduction has been manipulated by people in order to encourage certain traits to be carried on (dog A has a great sense of smell so it's bred with dog B for a short, shiny coat and voila, you get a bloodhound as an oversimplified example). What you see today is the immense variety you can get from just one species of dog.

6. The changes occur because our reproduction is not exact. Look at it like this, there are two children sharing the same parents. They both share traits from those parents, but they don't share the same traits. Evolution is describing the accumulation of those changes over time.

7. I have looked at those odds and I laugh at them. No I really do. They are conjured by people that have no idea what evolution is only that it goes against what they believe so it must be wrong.

8. Evolution doesn't make anything happen. It's noting that changes occur in populations, and if you start adding up these changes over successive generations you'll start seeing some very different populations from the initial population. That's the explanation for the diversity of all living things.

Two gazelles are born in the African Sahara. One gazelle is born with a mutation that increases its lung capacity just slightly. The other is born with a mutation that's lowered its lung capacity just slightly. Which of those two is least likely to be eaten by a cheetah? If you said the first gazelle you you win! Because that tiny bit of lung capacity might afford that gazelle a chance to get away, where it can reproduce and pass that trait on to future generations. The other gazelle becomes dinner for the cheetah, and since it got to eat... it too can go pass its traits on to future generations.

To drag it out even more, if the cheetah had something that hindered it in catching gazelles, it would be less likely to catch gazelles, meaning it wouldn't it, then it wouldn't reproduce and its traits wouldn't be carried on.

Are ya seeing how this works?

2010-01-30 23:03:22 UTC

Actually, people who understand evolution don't "believe" in it; they don't have to believe in it because they are familiar with the evidence that supports it.

1. The scenario you are presenting doesn't happen in evolution, and only indicates you have not learned how evolution actually takes place. So there are no museums with the sorts of chimeras you name, but there are plenty with transitional fossils of all sorts.

2. There are many forerunners of Homo sapiens: Homo rudolfensis, Homo ergaster, Homo erectus, etc. as well as many Australopithecene species. Google Hominid Fossils.

3. We are apes; we are one of four genera of living apes (aka hominids), the others being Pongo (orangutan), Gorilla, and Pan (chimpanzee). These genera never graduated into each other; they did the opposite--they diverged from each other. Your question indicates again that you don't understand how evolution actually takes place. Google Cladistic Speciation.

4. There are many ways of being fit. Large size works for some species; small size works for others. Plain colors work for some species, bright colors for others. Don't confuse fitness with one simple trait.

5. Both. Dog breeds have been produced by evolution under human control i.e.humans rather than nature decided what characteristics would be favored.

6. Apparently God loves diversity. Evolution doesn't know anything, and doesn't envision the future, though God might. Evolutionary change IS adaptation. There are many ways of being fit, even in the same geographical region. Even in the same region, there are different ecological niches which different species adapt to. With small animals, like most insects, you can get different ecological niches on a single tree.

7. Basic rule of any computation: garbage in = garbage out. Most so-called mathematical disproofs of evolution are founded on garbage in. Also, there is no need to pit creation against evolution. Most Christians (like me) accept both.

8. That depends. Is there a right way to be a living organism? And is the right way today still going to be the right way next millennium? What if the nice little pond you are living in today disappears as the climate gets hotter and drier?

2010-01-29 23:19:42 UTC

Every fossile is "in-between". It has parents which were slightly different and kids who were slighlty different.

The book "Evolution, The Greatest Show on Earth" by Richard Dawkins exactly answers these type of answers.

You can also go visit any natural science museum and read books or get involved in geology, molecular analysis, ...

Evolution is not an entity deciding to do or not do something. This is the name for a process.

This process is gradual change to genes brought by mutations, errors during replication, exchange of genes. Some genes will produce living beings that will survive a bit better than other and HAVE kids carrying these genes.

The fossile record as well as existing lifeforms show beings which ancesters came from the sea and then went to live on the land. Some came back to the sea ( think dolphins, whales, some turtles, ... ) and some stayed on land.

Atheism is not the issue here. It is basic understanding of science and education.

2010-01-29 23:15:12 UTC

1. The Chicago Museum of Natural History has many of the literally hundreds of extremely well preserved specimens of Whatcheeriids that came from the Hiemstra Quarry in Iowa that were studied by John R. Bolt. They also have rhipidistian fish from the same quarry, which other than some details of the lower extremities are easy to mistake for the same creature if details of the skull structure are not closely observed.. These fossils are so well preserved that using them Dr Bolt was able to do extensive studies on the evolution of the inner ear as tetrapods adapted to land. Notably, there are intermediate forms between even these amphibians and their closely related fish ancestors.

2 & 3. A Creationist, Carrol Linnaeus, placed humans in Hominidae well before even Lamarck presented his theories regarding evolution. If you care to check, Hominidae is all the Great Apes, including us. We are still apes, and it was Creationists who recognized that. Also, note that not all species of any clade normally live in the same environment. If you were dropped off in a vast tropical rain forest with no equipment I doubt you would be as fit to survive as an orangutan. Since various environments exist in this world, there are plenty of places for different species to be the most fit in their niche.

4. Survival of the Fittest applies mostly within a species. Does a weaker fish survive better or worse than the other fish when that shark swims into their school?

5. Selective Breeding and Natural Selection are two mechanisms for evolution. Darwin discussed them both.

6. Why is not the right question. That is a lot like asking why some snowflakes fall in water where they melt, and others "decide" to fall on land and "survive",

7. Compared to any creation myth I have heard, the odds seem higher that in the future, somebody goes back in time and carries bacteria on their shoe that all life evolves from. But I'll stick to ideas like evolution that don't involve throwing out the laws of physics we have figured out.

8. The environment changes. Life must keep up or perish.

lordua

2010-01-29 23:33:03 UTC

1) Any museum of Natural Science in the world.

2) Any museum of Natural Science in the world

3) There are man species of birds, fish, and mammals. When on type of fish evolves the rest of its "cousins" don't evolve with it or go extinct. Same with humans and apes.

4) Small fish are around because of the cycle of life. Whales need to eat "small fish" to survive so if they go extinct then so will whales.

5) Generally speaking wolves evolved/where breed into modern domesticated dogs. So both evolution and mankind.

6) Evolution is adaptation.... newb

7) No one believes in evolution, it's not faith based. We study it to find facts that support it, then we KNOW, not BELIEVE, it to be true.

8) refer to answer 6.

The unfortunate thing is that many Atheists have studied the Bible to form an intelligent conclusion based on the presented material. On the other hand people of faith rarely give science a chance. In short, you should read more books.

neil s

2010-01-29 23:29:14 UTC

1) Nonsense; all this request demonstrates is a lack of understanding of what a transitional form is. Every organism on the planet is one.

2) If we had no fossils, DNA evidence alone establishes evolution as a scientific fact. Again, this question only demonstrates that you don't understand the science.

3) No, since not all of the members of the species that became homo sapiens were subjected to the environmental pressures and support that lead to that change. It's like asking "If America was founded by Europeans, why are there still Europeans?"

4) "Fitness"s not merely a function of size or physical prowess. Rate of reproduction, social organization, ability to survive in environments inhospitable to other species, etc., all are factors.

5) Mankind and evolution both have had their influence on dogs. Again, you have assumed that fossil records are required to substantiate evolution; they are not. Fossils help us fill out the theory of how evolution happens, since just the genetic data indicates with more than enough certainty that it happens.

6) Evolution occurs with every birth. There are recorded examples of speciation in lizard populations in less than 30 years.

7) Please read "Innumeracy: mathematical illiteracy and its consequences" by John Allen Paulos. Probabilities do not establish facts, evidence does. The evidence for evolution is greater than for virtually any other scientific claim in history. Note: evolution makes no claim about the origins of life, only about how existing life changes. There is no evidence Jesus ever existed. (See "The Christ Myth" Arthur Drews)

8) Environmental changes demand adaption or death. There is no right or wrong to it, only survival. Evolution is not a process with an intent.

Instead of looking to creationist websites, look at the actual science.

Mitchincredible

2010-01-29 23:19:26 UTC

1. I don't know where but archeopteryx and tiktallik are two fossils that you've described.

2. Fossils are rare, it is most likely that we'll never find the supposed 'missing link'. Neanderthals were a separate evolutionary path.

3. We came from the same ancestors as apes, apes are around today because they evolved from that ancestor.

4. There are more variables other than just how big and strong a group of animals are when it comes to survival, they can also be smarter, poisonous, work better in groups and have different life history strategies that determine their survival.

5. I don't know this one, breeds of dogs however were selectively bred for different jobs.

6. Whenever environmental changes occur, species that survive and are able to reproduce carry on their species, their survival is dependent on how well adapted they are to their environment.

7. Selective pressures mean that when an animal is adapted to an environment, it is more likely to survive, that is why over generations, species eventually change as mutations that benefit them pile up.

8. Same as the last two questions.

?

2010-01-29 23:52:55 UTC

The Second law of thermodynamics dictates that the disorder of the universe always increases, and so, consequently, life grows ever more complex. The probability of the world existing today exactly as it is is of course infinitesimally small, and, as far as I can tell, this is true both for creation or for evolution.

Evolution is not an optimizing force that drives all animals to be perfect. It's not really survival of the fittest so much as survival of the least unfit; random mutations that happen to be beneficial generally become dominant. Evolution is observable, even today. Fish trapped in dark cave pools lose their eyes and gain stronger senses of smell. Pathogens grow resistant to drugs used to treat them.

As far as an "in-between" animal goes, there are several. Perhaps the most famous is Australopithecus Afarensis, or "Lucy," which has been in a travelling exhibit for some time; this ape walked upright and had a brain volume slightly greater than that of a chimp, but was much smaller than a modern human. Later species include earlier members of our on genus, such as Homo Habilis and Homo Erectus. For instance, a Homo Erectus skull is on display in Ann Arbor, Michigan, at the Natural History Museum.

Now to adress your question about dog breeds. Dog breeds as we know it are essentially subspecies of Canine Domesticus, which yes, are a product of evolution - but evolution can be caused by humans just as well as anything else. The "original" breed was probably a wolf, which was domesticated by humans, probably with food. It is at this point that the humans come in; I can, for instance, breed my domesticated dogs of gentleness by systematically killing the aggressive species and making sure the docile ones survive. This is evolution, only it is a form of cultural selection, not natural selection. But perhaps a tribe or culture that lives in the mountains and hunts more than I do wants aggressive dogs than I do, so they'll do the opposite, killing the gentle dogs. At the same time, the dogs that are born with longer coats are more likely to survive in the mountains, so, over time, that culture's dogs will become longer-haired and more aggressive than mine will. This is how different breeds of dogs arise.

The fittest and the most adapted to change survive, yes. But as I noted earlier, evolution is merely the description of a process by which rare but positive mutations become dominant in a population. New species arise all the time as mutations cause new "strains" of organism, which eventually grow so far apart from the original trunk, hence the term "tree of life." Branches can start at any time, and generally, because meaningful mutations are rare, evolution is an extremely slow process. A million years from now, fish will have evolved to be better defended against sharks, but the sharks will also be more evolved; the only real reason a species is higher up on the food chain is because it's either part of an older tree branch, or just got particularly lucky with the luck of the mutations draw, so to speak.

Evolution doesn't "get things wrong." Evolution is not a force that consciously changes organisms. It's just that organisms that randomly are born better suited to the environment than others will become dominant. Evolution doesn't create super perfectly-evolved beings, it's merely descriptive of the fact that that which happens to be somewhat better by chance ends of on top.

I believe in God, to be sure. But I do not believe that He would create the world as it is today and provide a plethora of evidence to the contrary; I can't imagine why God would want to mislead us.

2010-01-29 23:41:18 UTC

Evolution has TRUCKLOADS of evidence to support it.

Cretinism? ZERO.

Gods and magic are the most simplistic excuses ignorant primitives have ever imagined to explain anything.

"Google the odds of evolution being true VS the odds of creation being true"

Kid, it has nothing to do with odds and all to do with reality.

Y'oughta try it out.

It's quite cool.

1. There is NO evidence which points to an imaginary psychopath in space suffering cerebral palsy, uncontrollably waving his arms about, creatin' stuff outa nothin' for no discernable reason.

2. Just by the SIMPLE act of looking around anyone can see that shït happens to all and sundry regardless of ANY thought, deed or circumstance, exactly as if there was NO invisible space chappie pulling any strings at all.

The world works exactly as you'd expect if there were no god.

~

2010-01-31 18:18:30 UTC

go and educate yourself on evolution.

Biologist study it for YEARS, so dont expect to come here and learn about it in few sentences.

But I want to answer your ape extinction question with an analogy I like.

Besides the Indians, all the people living in the USA are descendants from European and African people.

Why are there still European/African people ?

Your question clearly shows, that you did not grasp the simplest basics of evolution.

again, just go and educate your self on that. The basics are simple.

To give you a starter, there is a website on that and all questions related to evolution, abiogenesis and religious arguments against that, and also they got that list you asked for (transitional forms, fossils)

http://talkorigins.org/

Soulless - The Anti-Cat

2010-01-29 23:48:00 UTC

Can't be bothered answering this question only to have it ignored. Instead, I'll ask my own questions. Why have you not asked this question in the Biology section? Are you too much of a coward to ask this question in a place where you will receive such detailed answers that your complete ignorance of evolution will be shown? Is your belief in God so immature and shaky that it cannot compete with the knowledge of those who are extremely well educated in the subject of evolution?

2010-01-29 23:45:48 UTC

So you must be either a member of one of the cult churches, home schooled or just a screwed thinker as the christian churches say!!

The Pope, Catholic Church, Church of England and mainstream churches all accept the big bang and evolution!!

Lord Carey the former Archbishop of Canterbury put it rather well – “Creationism is the fruit of a fundamentalist approach to scripture, ignoring scholarship and critical learning, and confusing different understandings of truth”!!

Nice that christians and atheists can agree and laugh together even if it is at your expense!!

Bewildered1

2010-01-30 01:05:08 UTC

Please post this amazingly insightful and intellectually "honest" question in the Biology section where it belongs.

Christianity is logically DISPROVABLE, so it really doesn't matter whether Evolution is right or wrong, Christianity is PROVABLY wrong either way...

A "creator" may or may not exist, but the Christian version of a "creator" (as described in the Bible) cannot possibly exist. A course in basic logic could do wonders for you and your religious opinions!

Kyle

2010-01-29 23:12:52 UTC

I COULD take the time out to answer each of those questions with sources and show just how wrong your assumptions are and how little you know, but it'd be a waste of time. Use google if you really care, you'll find the articles just as easily as anyone else.

opinionatedlilbugger

2010-01-29 23:15:13 UTC

I didn't get past #1. There are no "half fish- half bird" type creatures. That's not how evolution works.

Your lack of intelligence is overwhelming even in the first few sentences.

2010-01-29 23:28:53 UTC

if you can't be bothered to read a book on the subject (clearly you don't want to spend the time to actually take a college bio course) then perhaps take a few minutes to watch a nice video

Evolution made easy...includes the "nylon bacterium" story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w57_P9DZJ4&feature=youtube_gdata

?

2010-01-30 07:08:08 UTC

The answer to all the above stupidity is for you to go and get a proper education.

2010-01-29 23:16:25 UTC

Something must have gone seriously wrong in today's education system, for these sorts of questions to appear.

2010-01-29 23:12:31 UTC

Inbetween animal? Are you joking? Evolution doesn't cause things like turtlecows or anything.

Near

2010-01-29 23:13:03 UTC

I read your first question and realized you don't understand evolution the slightest bit

2010-01-29 23:16:35 UTC

what are you 12?

go to school, come back, and see if you still have these questions...

Talon D

2010-01-29 23:13:00 UTC

ManBearPig!!

2010-01-29 23:12:08 UTC

The proof is christian is a sissy for reporting all answer/question they don't like.

Shame to you christian.