Question:
Can an atheist please explain Darwinian evolution?
The Former Dr. Bob
2009-11-16 20:51:00 UTC
I've read a great many answers that touch on evolution, and they've led me to conclude that most people who support evolutionary theory have very little understanding of it. Are you different? Can you please address any of the following points (in any order)?

At what rate does evolutionary change occur?
Is there a modern-day example of evolution that the average person would be familiar with?
Are there problems with evolutionary theory? What are they, if they exist?
Does mutation increase genetic information?
What are the odds of a critter passing along a particular gene to the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th generation?

This is not a test ... you will not be graded. I'm just curious to know whether or not the average Darwinist has addressed these questions, and whether or not they have the intellectual honesty to question a sacred scientific cow.
Twenty answers:
Don't Take Me Seriously
2009-11-16 20:57:14 UTC
Evolutionary change occurs variably, because there is evidence for both gradualism and punctuated equilibrium. How many years exactly I do not know.



Define example of evolution. If you mean real life large-scale evolution unfolding right now, not really.



Main problems with evolutionary theory is that macroevolution hasn't been observed in labs and that mutations generally have negative rather than positive effects.



Mutation can increase genetic information by the duplication of chromosome, or even simple point mutations.



If by gene you mean an allele, then (1/2)^n where n is the number of generations after the original one.
LucidDreamer
2009-11-16 21:11:47 UTC
At what rate does evolutionary change occur?



It depends on whether we're talking in a time scale or generational scale. The time necessary depends on the reproductive cycle of the species in question. Many bacteria breed at a frenetic pace (two generations per minute for some species), while Man, for example, takes on average at least twelve years. That's why evolution is so obvious in bacteria and virus', but not as discernible in larger species.



Is there a modern-day example of evolution that the average person would be familiar with?



The influenza virus, which evolves so readily that we have to develop new vaccines every year.



Are there problems with evolutionary theory? What are they, if they exist?



As with any scientific theory, there are questions about minor details and specific questions. How many genes are active in a specific generation that were not in the previous one? What controls the activation and deactivation of genes? At what rate do beneficial mutations occur, and how long do they take to spread through a given population?



Does mutation increase genetic information?



It can, yes, but not in the way most think. Genetic duplication (the accidental duplication of a gene) immediately increases the amount of "information" within the genome, however, that duplicate information is usually non-functional, it's junk. Mutation is the accidental corruption of a gene into a new pattern, which can activate/deactivate another gene, or cause a new trait (like ragged red fiber) to develop in the recipient.





What are the odds of a critter passing along a particular gene to the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th generation?



It depends heavily on the gene, a mutation that renders the "critter" sterile, for example, has a 0% chance of being passed on. But one that is neither beneficial nor destructive (junk) is just as likely as any other gene of being passed on.
2009-11-16 21:05:55 UTC
Darwinian evolution is the expression of mutation in the genes of organisms over time. These mutations cause variation in the species they produce, thus changing them. Natural selection deems that organisms with useful mutations will survive and reproduce better than those without this adaptation. The gene is thus expressed more in the population, causing the species to tend towards that gene. Eventually, the difference is enough to bring an entirely new species into being.



What rate? Well, mutation can only happen once in a generation. Organisms do not evolve, populations do.



Example? The flu virus. We need a new vaccine every year. Why is this? The flu virus evolves (changing over time due to mutation) and thus needs a new vaccine to prevent.



Problems? Hmm...I would think some jumps, like from prokaryote to eukaryote are debatable in their origins, but overall evolution is a solid theory.



Yes, it can. Not always, I would imagine, but it can quite often. Viruses add to genetic material as well, accounting for 'junk DNA'. Not all viruses are pathogens, so the cells can survive having viral DNA encoded onto their chromosomes.



Only if the mutation occurs on the reproductive DNA, assuming the organism reproduces sexually. With asexual reproduction, the organism passes all of it's genes onto the daughter cells.



I tried my best :P
2009-11-16 20:58:24 UTC
At what rate does evolutionary change occur? - slow, it takes hundreds to thousands of years for a noticeable change.



Is there a modern-day example of evolution that the average person would be familiar with? - humans used to have three sets of teeth... over time, that became two (baby and adult) - look it up, and i've known someone who had three (evolutionary throw back) --- oh and viruses.... ever wonder why we need a new flu shot every year or how you can catch the same cold twice....?



Are there problems with evolutionary theory? What are they, if they exist? - haven't found one, myself...



Does mutation increase genetic information? not sure



What are the odds of a critter passing along a particular gene to the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th generation? don't know the specifics.
auntb93
2009-11-16 21:04:08 UTC
What rate? Generally very slow, but it depends on the reproduction rate of the species involved.



Modern-day examples are easiest with very small things, like a virus or bacteria. If a person has a disease and they take penicillin for it, soon there are penicillin-resistant bacteria in them. That's because the only ones that survived to reproduce were the ones the penicillin did not kill. There may just be one or two, but that's enough with asexual reproduction.



I don't know of any problems with the theory of evolution by natural selection, but there are still details to work out. And natural selection is being gradually displaced by artificial selection, which means there are many, many species which could not survive without humans to cultivate them.



I don't think it increases the information, but just changes it.



As to the odds, I'm no good at that. Certainly mate selection plays a major role there; choosing a mate that has the same oddity as yourself will increase the odds your kids will have it too.
Goonhilda
2009-11-16 23:13:59 UTC
Evolutionary change occurs gradually. It occurs over millions of years. It begins with a tiny change, or genetic mutation, that is either benign (doesn't harm it's host) or has an advantage.



For example, when Homo Sapiens left Africa, we were already the Human species. We were all the same as we are now. We were all recognisable as humans physically, and intellectually. However, our skin colour was one of the last things to change. That's why there are some human beings who went north to Europe, and retained pale skin, and some that stayed in Africa, and developed dark skin as a protective mechanism against the heat and UV radiation of that climate. This took countless generations.



The eye in most species has evolved countless times, beginning as a light sensitive patch of skin cells, which then developed into a curved surface (so it could detect direction of light) and then gradually becoming more and more specialised, until we have the variety of eyes found in most species.



Modern day evolution? Well, I'm of European descent. Now, back in the 14th century, the Black Death decimated the European population, leaving only 20% of the population alive. Those that survived had certain genetic mutations which, in their descendents, have imparted a strong immunological resistance to HIV AIDS. If you have two parents who carry this gene and passed it to you, your body will be able to hold out far longer against HIV than someone who doesn't have the gene, or someone who only had one parent with the gene who passed it on. That is one of the reasons why HIV is such a serious problem in Africa and Asia -- they didn't experience the Black Death the way Europe did, because of their geographical location. They missed out on the gene.



Another awesome example of evolution is sickle cell anaemia. People with genetic heritage tracing back to Central Africa sometimes carry a gene for sickle cell anaemia. They have red blood cells that are 'sickle' shaped, and because they're a bit wonky, they don't carry oxygen around the body as well. Now, it's not too bad if you just get it from one parent. But if you get it from both, then you have Sickle Cell Anaemia. But the reason it's so prevalent is that people with these wonky red blood cells have a genetic advantage in areas where they encounter the Malaria pathogen. As far as I know, (I read this a long time ago) Malaria has a hard time trying to establish itself in someone who's red blood cell are sickle shaped. So it imparts a defence against Malaria. At one stage in human history, this mutation probably spread through the population because people with the condition were healthier than those who were vulnerable to Malaria, and could reproduce and care for more children. Therefore, their genetic information survived. They had more descendents.



There are magpies in Northern Australia which have evolved a behavioural change which means they can kill the introduced Cane Toad, which is highly poisonous, and eat the only internal organs which do not carry the deadly toxin. They only eat the organs which won't kill them. They are the descendents of magpies which only ate the organs in Cane Toads which didn't kill them. This COULD be evolution. If an ancestor's behaviour prolonged their life, they were more likely to have more offspring, which would probably inherit the genes that drive that behaviour.



Yes, there are problems with Evolutionary Theory. There were problems when it was first introduced. One of the problems was the incredible shortage of fossils. When Darwin first stumbled upon Evolution, there were hardly any fossils, and testing techniques were pretty pathetic. However, we have pretty much filled every missing link on the Human family tree (they are often dismissed by some creationists because they are normally classified as either human or ape. There is no classification for 'missing link'. However, they all fit and show us the metamorphoses from ape like ancestor to human being. We did not descend from Apes, we just share a common ancestor with apes, just like cats share a common ancestor with lions and tigers.) Every year they find more information that further supports Darwin's Theory. It is a success because Darwin proposed it, based on evidence, and now a century later, there is a vast quantity of evidence that supports it. Archaeopteryx is the missing link between birds and reptiles, and has trace indentations of feathers, plus claws on the ends of the wings. They keep finding stuff like this that supports evolution as a theory.



There is an increase in genetic information. They don't know what many of the genes in a human being actually do. Some of them might just be junk. If you take a fruit fly and make a tiny change to the DNA that controls the development of their antenna, they will grow a leg instead of an antenna. Tinkering like this is helping scientists work out what does what. Many of the g
rdStyles
2009-11-16 20:58:01 UTC
Evolution occurs on a scale of millions of years, which is mainly the reason why people have a hard time grasping it. Influenza is an example of evolution, the virus evolves/mutates year to year which is why theirs a new flu shot every year.

Mutation in a cell does not increase genetic information it mutates it.

In "The Selfish Gene", Dawkins outlines how genes exist from generation to generation.
CumquatMay
2009-11-16 21:09:05 UTC
ill just paste this in from my last answer. I can't be arsed editing it:



evolution shows how you can can get complexity from simple organisms over time, given variation and the pressures of natural selection. I can understand that you think life looks designed, however evolution is anything but random. It ruthlessly weeds out poorly adapted organisms and only lets the most fit ones for the conditions survive. because the species that survive are very well adapted, and the tendency has been for this to improve over time like an arms race, most people before darwin made the mistake of thinking that life on earth must have been designed, usually involving a supernatural explanation such as the christian creation myth



With the discovery of DNA, the mechanisms and process for evolution are now both observable and well understood by the scientific community and those who have taken the time to learn it.
Transposed
2009-11-16 20:56:23 UTC
Why would you ask an atheist?



"At what rate does evolutionary change occur? "

It varies with the pressures of natural/artificial selection.



"At what rate does evolutionary change occur? "

nylon eating bacteria that evolved (in a lab and the field) to digest nylase.



"Does mutation increase genetic information?"

define 'information'



"Are there problems with evolutionary theory? "

Can't think of anything. It is the only theory that explains the diversity of life.



"Darwinist"

What is a darwinist?



"Main problems with evolutionary theory is that macroevolution hasn't been observed in labs and that mutations generally have negative..."

Yes it has, many times, and most mutations are benign.
2009-11-16 20:55:13 UTC
"At what rate does evolutionary change occur? "



Depends on the conditions in the environment. Changes can occur in minutes (see various viruses), or organisms can go relatively unchanged for, well, quite a while (see alligators).





"Is there a modern-day example of evolution that the average person would be familiar with?"



The shortening of the tailbone and the fact that humans are getting taller.
2009-11-16 21:21:56 UTC
Evolution takes generations. Species with short generation cycles sometimes change fast enough that we can observe it in our own lifetimes. Animals with long lifespans, like people, take thousands and thousands of years to change noticeably unless there is extreme selection pressure.



Yes, there are modern day examples of evolution. For instance, blue mussels evolved thicker shells in response to the introduction of Asian shore crabs (which like to eat mussels). In about 15 years!

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/060901_mussels



Mutation sometimes increases and sometimes decreases genetic information.



The odds of a gene being passed on to succeeding generations are dependent on many factors, especially the number of offspring the species has and its overall survival rate. There's no simple answer.
ozarkcabin
2009-11-16 21:55:36 UTC
Sorry to butt in, i'm a God believer all the way. As far as I know mutations have not added information just deleted info. the new improved mutations of bacteria and viruses are just simpler and better eating machines that eat the vaccines because they are getting simpler. One of the problems evolution has is the Butterfly. Certainly debunks natural selection. the

butterfly has God written all over it. The caterpillar literally dissolves itself and becomes a completely different creature. Why would a caterpillar evolve into a 2 stage (actually 4) creature when it was safer on the ground eating? A little worm like thing can make it's own little container to disolve itself into liguid and then the liguid change into a completely different creature. Got to love all the info that goes into that process.
2009-11-16 22:51:34 UTC
Well you sound like a BAD christian and screwed thinker as the christian church describes it!!



The Pope, Catholic Church, Church of England and mainstream churches all accept the big bang and evolution!!



Lord Carey the former Archbishop of Canterbury put it rather well – “Creationism is the fruit of a fundamentalist approach to scripture, ignoring scholarship and critical learning, and confusing different understandings of truth”!!



1. In general evolution happens so slowly that it cannot be watched.



The four letter code that constitutes the DNA of all living things changes over time; for example individual or several letters can be copied incorrectly [substitution], lost [deletion] or gained [insertion]. Such changes can lead to functional and structural changes in genes and proteins and ultimately to the formation of new species.



Insertions are much more common whilst deletions appear to be rare.



2. The platypus, classified as a mammal because it produces milk and is covered in a coat of fur, also possesses features of reptiles, birds and their common ancestors, along with some curious attributes of its own. One of only two mammals that lays eggs, the platypus also sports a duck-like bill that holds a sophisticated electrosensory system used to forage for food underwater. Males possess hind leg spurs that can deliver pain-inducing venom to its foes competing for a mate or territory during the breeding season.



The act of mating with a species other than your own may not be as ill advised or peculiar as it seems.



Recent research indicates that hybridization is not only widespread in nature but it might also spawn many more new species than previously thought.



Animals are generally thought to evolve when a single species gradually splits into two over many generations. But some scientists now believe that the behavior that has been called animals' sexual blunders could be an important force in their evolution.



Advances in technologies for decoding genes are giving scientists the opportunity to make such discoveries. Hybrid-formed species are usually extremely difficult to detect because of their close physical resemblance to their parent species but today scientists are able to collect the detailed molecular data needed to identify previously unrecognized hybrids.



On average, 10 percent of animal species and 25 percent of plant species are now known to hybridize. Occasionally the act produces sexually fertile hybrids that evolve into separate species. This process in animals involves so-called homoploid speciation, in which the hybrid offspring's DNA is packaged into the same number of chromosomes as the parents'



There are no problems with evolution theory since it merely seeks to explain how the millions of facts fit together!!



3. Refer to Nº 1.



4. Of the macaque's nearly 3 billion DNA base pairs, 93.5 per cent are identical to those in the human genome. This is not unexpected for a species whose lineage diverged from our own about 25 million years ago. The human and chimp genomes, which diverged just 6 million years ago, are about 98 per cent identical.



One puzzling discovery is that several mutations that cause genetic diseases in humans - such as phenylketonuria and Sanfilippo syndrome, which lead to mental retardation - are the normal form in macaques and, presumably, our own ancestors.



So these have passed through all generations!!
mia delight
2009-11-16 20:59:33 UTC
I have a rudimentary understanding of evolution ,but a scientist or a paleontologist might answer those questions better.

If I have a medical problem I don't ask a lawyer for answers.
2009-11-16 20:58:17 UTC
Can Christians explain this?



http://www.exposingchristianity.com/
LHOOQ
2009-11-16 20:54:43 UTC
Ever hear of vaccines?



Thank evolution.
Buddy
2009-11-16 20:56:44 UTC
Atheist? you'd probably get a better answer from a biologist.
John G
2009-11-16 20:57:29 UTC
some of us can, but we are not science teachers, so we don't want to educate you. Stop trolling for a free education from atheists.
2009-11-16 20:54:37 UTC
What is 'Darwinian'? evolution has moved beyond Darwin, for centuries.
Reigh
2009-11-16 20:59:52 UTC
Why don't you learn it from a scientist like we did?


This content was originally posted on Y! Answers, a Q&A website that shut down in 2021.
Loading...