Was the legend of Jesus just a ripoff of a much earlier legend?

Question

Just saw the movie "Religulous" in which Bill Maher claims that some two thousand years before Jesus, the Egyptians has a legend of someone called Horus who was the son of god, born of a virgin, baptized in a river, spent time alone in the desert, was tempted by the devil, had 12 apostles, performed miracles, walked on water, raised the dead, and was crucified. I just looked up "Horus" in Wikipedia and there was nothing about any of that. Anyone know where this came from?

A third-generation freethinker

Answer 1

I've been trying to find out for some time where all of that came from, and can't find an Egyptian source. I was surprised when I first heard of it, because I've been a casual (not professional) student of Egyptian mythology and culture for forty years, and had never seen any of that before.



I think it's a fraud but I'm trying to keep an open mind.



A good bit of Luke's story of Jesus' birth was probably "ripped off" from the Romano-Persian worship of Mithras. But Matthew's story seems original.

Answer 2

Hello,



Nothing new. That point regarding Horus has been brought up and rehashed over the last 35 years or so. About 2 years back Canadian television had a 2 hour program on that very subject.



That said, when you see the programs and read the literature you can find some similarities in the stories but also there are vast differences as well and this theory seems to have been debunked.



Cheers,



Michael Kelly

Answer 3

Not sure about the Horus legend, Osiris was raised from the dead by being put back together. Wkkipedia may not be the best source of information on the complete legend though.



On the other hand, in different religions, gods have died and resurrected, some born of virgins, spent time alone in many different location, etc. The link below is a previous messianic figure from Judaism - apparently a historic one not so much legend.

Answer 4

to say that Horus was called the "Son of the Father" or that the Iranian version of Mit(h)ra was called the "Light of the World" or that Krishna was called a "Shepherd God" is not saying very much at all. Each case would need to be examined more closely, to see if the underlying concepts suggested 'striking' parallels. Many of these generic religious terms just cannot carry much weight in supporting a theory of borrowing. And, again, we would have to determine the 'most probable source' for the individual term.

Much more: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html

Answer 5

Horus was born of the Virgin Isis-Meri on Dec. 25th in a cave. Isis bore Horus as she impregnated herself with stolen semen from Osiris after his death. He was tempted by Set, god of the Underworld, he had 12 Priests, performed the Miracle of flight. Never walked on water, unable to raise the Dead as that was in the domain of Set, who was Horus' enemy because Set killed Osiris, his father. And Horus was never Crucified. Wikipedia would not have most of this information as you need to find Egyptian tablets which state these. It was a pain in the *** to do it!

Answer 6

Most of this comes as much from the Zeitgeist movie as anything else. Some of the claims you mention were laid out by "Acharya S" (pseudonym) in her book "The Christ Conspiracy" - pages 114-116. Similar "Christ myth" skeptics like Tom Harpur, Freke and Gandy have said things along the same line. But even they don't make some of the claims (as you'll see), so I think Zeitgeist produces made them up.



Despite what many here are saying about how this "is well known fact" talked about by scholars for the past few decades - that is WRONG. It has been a point of speculation, for sure...



No doubt, the early church fathers did ponder some of the similarities of major religions, but they were not as numerous as the claims laid forth. Let's look at them, shall we?



1) son of god? No, but "Great God, Chief of the Powers, Master of Heaven, Avenger of His Father. I suppose him being born of a god could be used, but then so would Hercules be as well. And I don't thnk anyone would say the greeks somehow thought of a Christ-like figure in Heracles!



2) born of a virgin? "...Horus was NOT born of a virgin at all. Indeed, one ancient Egyptian relief depicts this conception by showing his mother Isis in a falcon form, hovering over an erect phallus of a dead and prone Osiris in the Underworld (EOR, s.v. "Phallus")



3) time alone in the desert? I'm not even sure where this idea comes from! I see no record of it at all, and it would not even provide meaning to the Horus myth. Why would the great warrior God, son of Osiris, need to spend "time alone" if he was so powerful?



4) tempted by the devil? The "devil" is more of a Jewish/Christian personna (religions like Mithraism had similar figures).Horus may have been said to have had alot of battles with Set, but the "temptation" motif again makes no sense for Horus' mythical story of battling with strength.



5) 12 apostles? " 4 "disciples"--variously called the semi-divine HERU-SHEMSU ("Followers of Horus") [GOE:1.491]. 16 human followers (GOE:1.196). And I can find reference to an UNNUMBERED group of followers called mesniu/mesnitu ("blacksmiths") who accompanied Horus in some of his battles.



Horus is NOT the sun-god (Re is), so it makes no sense to use the "solar gods have twelve disciples in the Zodiac" argument.



6) baptized in a river?

7) performed miracles?

8) raised the dead?



"Miracle stories abound, even among religious groups that could not possibly have influenced one another, such as Latin American groups (e.g. Aztecs) and Roman MR's, so this 'similarity' carries no force. The reference to this specific resurrection I cannot find ANYWHERE in the scholarly literature....The fact that something so striking is not even mentioned in modern works of Egyptology indicates its questionable status. It simply cannot be adduced as data without SOME real substantiation."



9) walked on water? "Not that I have found, but he was thrown in the water"



10) crucified? Not that I can find! I can't find anything about his "death"! Does someone have any record of it?



11) born on Dec. 25th? NO. "Horus...born on the 31st day of the Egyptian month of Khoiak" So 1 day out of 365 we can say he was born on, but without knowing the Egyptian calendar, it's a 1/365 chance to be Dec. 25th



And for anyone claiming "conspiracy" by editors of Wikipedia, here is just ONE comment by an editor at Wikipedia:



"First off, I am not a Christian. I did some research and pretty much figured out that this and the other claims of the similarity to Jesus are more than myths, most of them are out right lies or trying to deceive or mislead intentionally....I did a whole paper on this in class and found out it's a bunch of lies. We should start a page on it I will have things back up what I say. —Preceding unsigned comment added by VegSXEBassist (talk • contribs) 21:20, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Answer 7

Actually the one that should have been used in that is Osiris. who is the father of Horus. Osiris is the one that was betrayed by his own brother Set and killed and then was resurrected. Read up on Ancient Egyptian mythology and you will find all sorts of parallels of the stories of Egypt and the stories of the Bible. The Book of the Dead and the Pyramid Texts are supposed to be a part of the bible or rather the dead sea scrolls.

Answer 8

Roflmao!



The sex incrusted mind of Bill's writers!



Horus' legend as an Egyptian god is very interesting, go here☟



http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm



and then here ☟☟☟



http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/horus.htm



Horus is also in the "Alexanderite Pantheon" in Majik,(magic), Edward Aliester Crowley wrote volumes about him. ☟☟



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=96999441847862414



I lived @ the area of Loch Ness in Scotland for a time and the house now belongs to an old rocker from Led Zep.



Bill Maher is cool but don't trust his data Ben Stien is much more honest and fun to party with.



BTW both are Jewish like me ---- well almost I'm Messianic.



Eli

Answer 9

There were several prophets who testified of the coming of the messiah, and at least a couple who testified that he would be the son of God.

As far as Horus is concerned, he did not do hardly any of these things. The accusation comes from a thoroughly debunked document that has, like letters from Nigeria promising wealth, stayed alive on the Internet. Only during a brief period of time did some think that Horus was the son of another God. He wasn't crucified. Crucifixion was a Roman torture.



By the way, neither Christ nor Horus was born on Dec. 25th., another assertion of this fiction. The most amazing aspect of this fraud is that anyone would believe it.

Answer 10

Nothing new at all there - christianity borrows a great deal from other religions.



Interestingly enough that the prophecies in the old testament support the fullfillment of an even older egyptian myth. How much time did the jewish people spent in Egypt? To think that their culture wasn't influenced by that time doesn't make much sense.

Answer 11

Yeah, it is just a movie.

12 Apostles: Egyptian religion scholars know of none of this.

Born of a virgin: Horus was NOT born of a virgin at all. Indeed, one ancient Egyptian relief depicts this conception by showing his mother Isis in a falcon form, hovering over an erect phallus of a dead and prone Osiris in the Underworld (EOR, s.v. "Phallus"). And the Dec 25 issue is of no relevance to us--nowhere does the NT associate this date with Jesus' birth at all.

He also did not walk on water, he was thrown in water. Go check some facts my boy because most of these comparisons are false and this is just another case of hollywood fever.

Answer 12

Bill Maher is bereft of morality. If one were to believe in the Devil, he'd be an excellent example to point to of one who is doing the Devil's work -- and all in the name of being a "free thinker". He is actually an arrogant, hateful person and while he spews garbage about the intolerance of religion, you can loudly hear the overtones of his intolerance and outright hate for people who don't "think" like he does.



If you consider yourself a thinker, or a historian at all, you should know that the collapse of a great society is almost always accompanied by the collapse of that society's morality. Listen between the lines when he speaks and you will hear a person who would gleefully flush our society down the toilet. Yet, what has he done to make the world a better place? What positive alternative does he offer? Who has he helped and what real good has he actually created?



I would guard your soul when you expose yourself to the likes of him. He is up to no good.

Answer 13

You didn't look far enough. Google 'Jesus myth hypothesis' and you will find things like:



"Some proponents of the Jesus Myth argument have argued that many aspects of the Gospel stories of Jesus have remarkable parallels with life-death-rebirth gods in the widespread mystery religions prevalent in the Hellenistic culture in which Christianity was born."

Answer 14

I never really looked into it too much, as the lack of extra biblical evidence, the contradictions in the gospels and the lack of knowledge of jewish legal procedure had always convinced me that there was no divine Jesus, just some charismatic rabbi. But I found this on religious tolerance.org, which is usually pretty reliable and there has been some issues with fundies re-editing wiki sites, but this is what I found and it seems pretty convincing.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

Answer 15

i think of he rather believed what he grew to become into asserting yet Lord?? No i do no longer think of so, Lunatic? possibly, Legend? nicely easily we are nevertheless speaking approximately him, Liar? nicely that relies upon if he grew to become into intentionally deceiving human beings or no longer, i'm particularly beneficial that he meant each and every thing he stated, so i does no longer call him a liar. If a guy in a white gown walked the streets of a city mutually with ny or London etc etc in the present day and claimed he grew to become into the son of God we could lock him up, or a minimum of deliver him to a cut back so what does that permit you comprehend? back then a clever guy or woman could have confident human beings of in basic terms approximately something, I advise we burnt human beings as witches even in one point of our historical past, we believed in many stuff in basic terms like the very youthful nevertheless have self assurance interior the Easter Bunny. In some countries they nevertheless are very youthful and nevertheless have self assurance in thoughts of the previous, i think of sometime all of us will locate out the fact.

Answer 16

You need to read a bit more deeply, but in essence the majority is true yes.



Many of these attributes to Jesus' life were added later to make Jesus a bit more exciting and "god-like", so people could say "our god's as good as your god".



Check out Mthras and Gilgamesh to see exactly the same things, ie Virgin Birth, Born at Winter Solstice (25th December), attended by wise ment bearing allegorical gifts etc. They have all been done before.

Answer 17

Seriously atheists, please someone point me to the exact places of these stories of Horus, Mithra, Osiris, etc. where it states these facts? All of the pieces of these stories that atheists levy against Christianity being a myth, are dated after the time of Christ.



So please, for the sake of all that is good, until you can show us where these stories originate from, you and Bill Maher have no proof.

Answer 18

Yes, most of the mythology is cribbed from elsewhere. The ancient Greeks had a flood myth in which the only righteous man was instructed to build a wooden ark (he did not fill it with animals, however). The story of Pandora is a "fall of man" fable very similar to the story of Adam and Eve.

Answer 19

Of course Bill Mayer would claim that and of course people will believe everything he says because after all, he is Bill Mayer. If Jesus were sitting in his panel today, answering questions, they still wouldn't believe.

Here is the link to Horus in wikipedia in case you care to read more about it. God bless.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus

Answer 20

For the most part those claims are long known to be accurate, but some are questioned. There are more correlations, however which are often not mentioned.



Here's a comparison with references: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm#vb

Answer 21

Jesus existed. What one thinks of him is a matter of opinion. But he stood for good and for change. His message was universal.

Answer 22

Yea, Maher and the world just wants to do you in, freethinker. It worked!

Answer 23

Jesus

A dead carpenter.

A man who was supposedly his own father and his own son, who worshipped himself and tried to get other people to worship him too. Needless to say, few people would follow him during his lifetime and his behavior often scared away potential followers. His legacy only really began to grow after he was no longer around to scare people off.



(see also Christ)





Jesus H. Christ

Expression denoting extreme annoyance. Usually used in conjunction with "f*cking".

Answer 24

I found some info...http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/horus.html

Answer 25

Of course that's why men were willing to be lay down their lives when ll they had to do was say "It's a hoax, we made the whole story up" and Rome would have let them live.. But no they went meekly to their deaths proclaiming Jesus as their Lord Savior, and God.. IHS jim

Answer 26

and you'll probably find most of those stories that came from earlier pagan religions as well.

Answer 27

No.



It is not a legend. Movie sounds ridiculous indeed.

Answer 28

Umm... Well now, it COULD be that that version was fake, or the jesus version. Anyways, we all know that christianity stole from every other religion to make wtf it is today.

Answer 29

Jesus was first. All of these other myths followed.

Answer 30

In the OT in Genesis it speaks about the Messiah . They copied from that.

GOD BLESS

Answer 31

yes and what are you gonna do about it?



freethinker please...bigot's more like it